I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it
in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the
systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not
too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had
an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope
they'll leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it
in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not
too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had
an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope they'll leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

Ed

Diskpart was never an applet presented in Control Panel.

Disk Management (drvmgmt.msc) can't handle unknown or raw partitions. Presumably there was a partition on USB drive. You said there was an EFI-tagged partition, but said nothing about the partition you wanted to
use. You could not delete the unknown/raw partition to create a new
known partition type that you could then format?

Diskpart can handle raw partitions by either deleting them, and then formatting, or by formatting them in-place to put a recognizable (to
Windows) file system in the partition.

https://www.diskpart.com/diskpart/diskpart-fix-raw-partition-7201.html

Due to the limitations of Microsoft's partition tools, I've used 3rd
party partition managers.

https://www.easeus.com/data-recovery/recover-raw-drive.html

There are other tools for trying to recover data off a drive that went
RAW. The above is just an example. If you don't care about whatever
content might be in the RAW partition, just delete it, create a new
partition of a recognizable partition type (it's an attribute in the
partition table), and format it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_type

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 27/9/2024 3:37 am, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it
in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the
systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not
too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had
an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

Smelled like partition table problem. You sure that the drive was okay
before this?

An EFI partition protects Window's necessary data; it will never allow
you to format it.

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:44:15 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Diskpart was never an applet presented in Control Panel.

That matches my memory. I haven't used it in ages, but tried it just
now in a non-admin command prompt. I got a regular Windows UAC
prompt, and when I granted permission a separate command window
opened, with diskpart running.

Disk Management (drvmgmt.msc)

ITYM diskmgmt.msc? My copy of Windows 10 22H2 knows nothing about
drvmgmt (with or without the trailing ".msc"). It does bring up Disk
Management in response to "diskmgmt" (with or without ".msc").

Due to the limitations of Microsoft's partition tools, I've used 3rd
party partition managers.

Heave a sigh for Partition Magic, which was terrific until Symantec
bought it.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, 9/28/2024 3:22 PM, Stan Brown wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:44:15 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Diskpart was never an applet presented in Control Panel.

That matches my memory. I haven't used it in ages, but tried it just
now in a non-admin command prompt. I got a regular Windows UAC
prompt, and when I granted permission a separate command window
opened, with diskpart running.

Disk Management (drvmgmt.msc)

ITYM diskmgmt.msc? My copy of Windows 10 22H2 knows nothing about
drvmgmt (with or without the trailing ".msc"). It does bring up Disk Management in response to "diskmgmt" (with or without ".msc").

Due to the limitations of Microsoft's partition tools, I've used 3rd
party partition managers.

Heave a sigh for Partition Magic, which was terrific until Symantec
bought it.

devmgmt.msc Device Manager
diskmgmt.msc Disk Management
diskpart.exe command line preparation of disks. (list disk, exit)

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:44:15 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Diskpart was never an applet presented in Control Panel.

That matches my memory. I haven't used it in ages, but tried it just
now in a non-admin command prompt. I got a regular Windows UAC
prompt, and when I granted permission a separate command window
opened, with diskpart running.

Disk Management (drvmgmt.msc)

ITYM diskmgmt.msc? My copy of Windows 10 22H2 knows nothing about
drvmgmt (with or without the trailing ".msc"). It does bring up Disk Management in response to "diskmgmt" (with or without ".msc").

Due to the limitations of Microsoft's partition tools, I've used 3rd
party partition managers.

Heave a sigh for Partition Magic, which was terrific until Symantec
bought it.

Yep. RIP, PQ. :(
--
"So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." --Hebrews 9:28. Unlimity slammy colony Friday.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, 9/28/2024 1:42 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 27/9/2024 3:37 am, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it >>> in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the
systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not
too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had
an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

Smelled like partition table problem. You sure that the drive was okay before this?

An EFI partition protects Window's necessary data; it will never allow you to format it.

Ed

dd.exe --list

rawwrite dd for windows version 0.6beta3.
Written by John Newbigin <jn@it.swin.edu.au>
This program is covered by terms of the GPL Version 2.

NT Block Device Objects
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition0
link to \\?\Device\Harddisk0\DR0
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 4000787030016 bytes <=== whole disk is write-able (could wipe out C: very messy...)
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition1
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume1 <=== no size listed for ESP (EFI) partition, therefore cannot write
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition2
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume2
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 16777216 bytes
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition3
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume3 <=== No size for C: , not write-able as a partition (by dd.exe at least)
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition4
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume4
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 680525824 bytes <=== Recovery partition ("hidden") can be over-written (can't Delete from DM)
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition5
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume5
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 138510690816 bytes <=== Win10 H: partition, write-able, but could also Delete from Disk Management
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition6
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume6
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 1074790400 bytes
\\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition7
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume7
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 732331769856 bytes

Virtual input devices
/dev/zero (null data)
/dev/random (pseudo-random data)
- (standard input)

Virtual output devices
- (standard output)
/dev/null (discard the data)

*******

So yes, the road is a bit bumpy. I can assign a letter K to
the ESP, but, I can't list the files. Assigning a letter in
this case maybe would allow "chkdsk K: " ?

Testdisk can get in there, so I can see the files that way.

nfi.exe could list the files, but of course the partition is FAT32,
so that's not going to work. The nfi.exe is for NTFS.

The thing is, the EFI is protected via its GPT declaration of partition
type. And it's not just a "basic data partition". If you could change that, then
the properties of it would change. Notice I am not testing this for you,
using my boot drive as "bait".

DISKPART> detail partition

Partition 1
Type : c12a7328-f81f-11d2-ba4b-00a0c93ec93b <=== this protects it
Hidden : Yes
Required: No
Attrib : 0000000000000000
Offset in Bytes: 1048576

Volume ### Ltr Label Fs Type Size Status Info
---------- --- ----------- ----- ---------- ------- --------- -------- * Volume 3 K FAT32 Partition 100 MB Healthy System

If we Google that identifier, we get:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table

The first 16 bytes of each entry designate the partition type's globally unique identifier (GUID).
For example, the GUID for an EFI system partition is C12A7328-F81F-11D2-BA4B-00A0C93EC93B.

The second 16 bytes are a GUID unique to the partition <=== like a BLKID

*******

First, this is my one and only hard drive. I have assigned K: to the
partition, but that's useless (except to say I'm on the correct partition).

DISKPART> list volume

Volume ### Ltr Label Fs Type Size Status Info
---------- --- ----------- ----- ---------- ------- --------- --------
Volume 0 C W11HOME NTFS Partition 118 GB Healthy Boot
Volume 1 H WIN10AMD NTFS Partition 128 GB Healthy
Volume 2 S SHARED NTFS Partition 682 GB Healthy
* Volume 3 K FAT32 Partition 100 MB Healthy System <=== ESP (efi) partition
Volume 4 NTFS Partition 649 MB Healthy Hidden
Volume 5 NTFS Partition 1025 MB Healthy Hidden

DISKPART> detail partition

Partition 1
Type : c12a7328-f81f-11d2-ba4b-00a0c93ec93b
Hidden : Yes
Required: No
Attrib : 0000000000000000
Offset in Bytes: 1048576

Volume ### Ltr Label Fs Type Size Status Info
---------- --- ----------- ----- ---------- ------- --------- -------- * Volume 3 K FAT32 Partition 100 MB Healthy System

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_basic_data_partition

(So it is not protected by an attribute, only the Type field protects it)

(Note, how you start with a Basic Data Partition, then format it to FAT32, in the article)

https://www.diskpart.com/articles/change-partition-type-id-8523.html

Solution 2: Set partition type ID via Diskpart <=== The example is for an MBR disk drive...

diskpart
list volume
select volume 3
set id=EBD0A0A2-B9E5-4433-87C0-68B6B72699C7 <=== this then, would leave it exposed (IN THEORY)
exit

In theory then, you could format it at this point.
And maybe change it back to the original GUID (but of course that would
not make sense).

As a Basic Data Partition, you should be able to delete the partition.

Or delete the partition using a "force" ?

There are plenty of experiments you can try on your USB stick.
You don't even have to go to Linux yet :-)

Selecting the thing in diskpart.exe and doing a "Clean" on it, is faster.
But if you want to pick off the partitions one by one, like a sharpshooter,
I bet you can. The downside of doing that, is the stick is still GPT, and
maybe you want it "uncommitted" for whatever your next steps are. The
"clean" of the thing, should make it usable for any purpose.

Paul

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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Due to the limitations of Microsoft's partition tools, I've used 3rd
party partition managers.

Heave a sigh for Partition Magic, which was terrific until Symantec
bought it.

Others showed up, though. I've used several, with Easeus the current
one I'm using although, on a occasion, I use Minitool. Once I do the
setup of my build, I don't need them again, so their use is short lived.

Lots of software disappeared after Symantec acquired it. For example,
there was Altiris Software Virtualization Solution that allowed you to
run conflicting programs, or multiple versions of the same program,
while isolating them from each other. If you couldn't run then
concurrently while isolated, you could define dependencies: when one
program was running, the SVS for the conflicting program would unload to prevent interference. There was a free version. Symantec acquired it,
claimed it enhanced their existing solution, but then it just
disappeared. Of course, you could pay Symantec for their Workspace Virtualization or Endpoint Virtualization Suite for what Altiris
provided for free (but they did have a more robust payware version).

Remember what happened to PC Tools when it got acquired by Peter Norton
to eliminate its competition with Norton Utilities? Then Symantec
acquired Norton.

I remember using Delrina WinFax [Pro] software. Then Symantec acquired
it, never updated it. The program remained at the same version for a
couple years with just one minor update. Then Symantec dropped it.

I worked for Veritas Tech for a few years. After Symantec merged with
them, and with their strong arming of changes in enterprise backup
sofware, and manpower attrition, I got canned. The QA dept tried 3
times to renew my contract, but failed on the 3rd attempt. They wanted
to keep me, but Symantec wouldn't budget for me, and I was a contractor,
not an employee.

While Symantec destroyed lots of software they acquired, eventually
Symantec suffered its own demise.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/26/2024 3:37 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it
in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not
too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had
an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope they'll leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

All indications are that MS want to branch as much as possible,
with a kiosk services interface for the hoi polloi and an increasingly
arcane commandline for corporate IT. They don't want people being
able to control or customize.

No one should *have to* use commandline for anything in this
day and age, 30+ years after the development of effective GUI.
But Linux people often have a console fetish, IT people like to feel
like rugged outdoorsmen who can survive the wilderness without
a mouse, and console is a great way to kick out the general
public from settings. So it's a win-win for MS.

I expect that even things like device manager or networking will
move to PowerShell, WMI, etc. The settings will just be for picking
wallpaper and such. Even now the display settings are pretty much
devoid of options and information. One needs a separate program for
that, obtained from the graphics chip manufacturer.

But disk management was always crap; extremely limited. I've
always used BootIt for partition work. I only use disk management
when I want to change drive letters. It can, at least, do that. Not
long ago I decided to try disk management to resize C a bit in order
to expand the recovery partition. Windows refused to do it, claiming
there were "immovable" files in the way. So I rebooted into BootIt,
which did the job quickly and easily.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 9/26/2024 3:37 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope they'll
leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

Ed

You'll have a Terminal of some sort.

You don't have to worry about that.

Third party applications expose all sorts of
"pain points" on the OS that need manual intervention.
It's not possible to reduce everything to a control
panel or a Settings dialog.

A more likely scenario, is the Terminal disappears
and a voice operated AI takes its place. You will
say "Hey, format this USB stick for me" or whatever,
and the AI will Google it, find the internal commands,
use the internal terminal, and say "Here's your stick".

But the AI will also say "I'm getting an error 2184 here,
and the imprecision of the error prevents me from doing
my job. Tough luck, buddy." And then we'll be back to
square one. See? Very hard to extinguish that Terminal.
Very hard indeed. A human still has to change the
oil and the filter. Some assembly required. YMMV :-)

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Paul wrote:

On Thu, 9/26/2024 3:37 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it in. >> It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the systray. >> It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not too >> sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope they'll
leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

Ed

You'll have a Terminal of some sort.

You don't have to worry about that.

Third party applications expose all sorts of
"pain points" on the OS that need manual intervention.
It's not possible to reduce everything to a control
panel or a Settings dialog.

A more likely scenario, is the Terminal disappears
and a voice operated AI takes its place. You will
say "Hey, format this USB stick for me" or whatever,
and the AI will Google it, find the internal commands,
use the internal terminal, and say "Here's your stick".

But the AI will also say "I'm getting an error 2184 here,
and the imprecision of the error prevents me from doing
my job. Tough luck, buddy." And then we'll be back to
square one. See? Very hard to extinguish that Terminal.
Very hard indeed. A human still has to change the
oil and the filter. Some assembly required. YMMV :-)

Paul

I find it hard to get moved further and further away from the nuts and
bolts; you, with your insight, must find it very hard.
They tell me you can drive a car without knowing how it works, but I
prefer to know how it works, for several reasons. Firstly, you can
foresee upcoming problems, sense changes that suggest future trouble.
Secondly, you'd be in the hands of so-called experts, and they can rip
you off as they will. Thirdly, your AI path can rise to such a height on
the ladder that any of the steps used could have been faulty.

MS themselves, however, have to tinker with the nuts and bolts, and so
it's likely they'll leave open some gateway for immediate access to the
lower levels. Let's hope so.

Stay cool,

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 9/26/2024 7:31 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

On 9/26/2024 3:37 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:

I needed a USB stick; I have a drawer full. I got one out and plugged it in. It didn't appear in My Computer nor in "Safely Remove ..." in the systray.
It did appear under Disk Management, but I couldn't format it. I'm not too sure what was on it, but probably some bootable OS (Linux?). It had an EFI partition.
So I used Diskpart, Clean; which worked.

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel. I hope they'll leave access to lower-level gateways that have no alternative.

   All indications are that MS want to branch as much as possible,
with a kiosk services interface for the hoi polloi and an increasingly
arcane commandline for corporate IT. They don't want people being
able to control or customize.

  No one should *have to* use commandline for anything in this
day and age, 30+ years after the development of effective GUI.
But Linux people often have a console fetish, IT people like to feel
like rugged outdoorsmen who can survive the wilderness without
a mouse, and console is a great way to kick out the general
public from settings. So it's a win-win for MS.

  I expect that even things like device manager or networking will
move to PowerShell, WMI, etc. The settings will just be for picking
wallpaper and such. Even now the display settings are pretty much
devoid of options and information. One needs a separate program for
that, obtained from the graphics chip manufacturer.

  But disk management was always crap; extremely limited. I've
always used BootIt for partition work. I only use disk management
when I want to change drive letters. It can, at least, do that. Not
long ago I decided to try disk management to resize C a bit in order
to expand the recovery partition. Windows refused to do it, claiming
there were "immovable" files in the way. So I rebooted into BootIt,
which did the job quickly and easily.

The G:\$BITMAP seems to be blocking my shrink demo :-)

I used nfi.exe (Microsoft) and an AWK script to figure it out.
(But you could also get the info out of a google or two.)

# This program prints the highest logical sector using nfi text data input.
# $BITMAP was the highest item.
# gawk -f print_nfi_high.awk nfi-listing.txt

BEGIN {
FS="[ ]*|-" # one or more spaces, or the hyphen character, as a delimiter
max=0
}

/logical sectors/ {
print $5 # For each logical sector line, print the end address of the block of data
if ( $5 > max ) max = 0 + $5
}

END {
print "Max is " max
}

But knowing what the blocker is, doesn't really help.

You can do it, without a reboot, using Raxco PerfectDisk trial version.
Then try Disk Management, but it takes multiple attempts to achieve
max shrink doing it that way. (defrag - shrink - defrag - shrink...)

One other tool, PM14 (Paragon), it needs a reboot to do it.

And if it needs a reboot, you could just boot into Linux and
do it with gparted :-) That's the benchmark for reboots,
you could be rebooting into something other than Windows
to do it.

I agree with you that the half-assed job they do, is passing strange.
If you go to all of the trouble they went to, to make it work
like it does today, how much more additional work would it have
been to move %BITMAP and $MFT. After all, Russinovich claims
most of that NTFS metadata can be moved (on the Sysinternals Contig page).
It's not supposed to be returning Access Denied for that.
I was able to defrag $MFT for example (contig64.exe), as that metadata is not Access Denied.

Paul

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Ed Cryer wrote:

This is rather worrying, with MS about to remove Control Panel.

MS appear to have back-pedalled on this. Time will tell.


"Microsoft isn’t removing the Control Panel from Windows anytime soon" "Rumors of the death of the Control Panel have been greatly exaggerated." <https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/27/24229436/microsoft-windows-control-panel-removal>


"Microsoft's Windows Control Panel might not get the axe after all — 38-year-old feature could live on as wording about deprecation is removed" "Microsoft has reworded its support document to reassure Control Panel
fans." <https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/microsofts-windows-control-panel-gets-a-reprieve-as-wording-about-its-deprecation-is-removed>


"The Windows Control Panel joins the ranks of the undead"
"Microsoft has updated its Windows system configuration tools document
and excised all references to deprecating the venerable Control Panel" <https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/27/the_windows_control_panel_joins/>

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