On 19 Sep 2024, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> posted some news:878qvo589n.fsf@tilde.institute:That’s my impression, too. What do you think of Android users?
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
sad but
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
On 19 Sep 2024, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> posted some news:878qvo589n.fsf@tilde.institute:
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
sad but true!
On 19 Sep 2024, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> posted some news:878qvo589n.fsf@tilde.institute:
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
sad but true!
On 19 Sep 2024, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> posted some news:878qvo589n.fsf@tilde.institute:
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
sad but true!
On 19 Sep 2024, yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> posted some news:878qvo589n.fsf@tilde.institute:
Yamn2 Remailer <noreply@mixmin.net> writes:
Apple users are usually liberals and don't care about privacy like
Windows people do.
LOL!
sad but true!
On 9/23/2024 4:58 PM, Alan wrote:
In what manner to Apple users care less about privacy than Windows users?
 Apple babies their customers and tells them what they want. Their customers, in turn, trust them, despite having no reason for
doing so. (Apple runs their own ad business, after all.)
 A good example is the "feature" to back up an iPhone online just
in case yours gets lost. Few Windows users would trust their
computer's contents to Microsoft. And most are not so tech-illiterate
that they'd need to.
  I think this is difficult for Mac devotees to understand. They think they're in a club or on a team, opposed to Windows users. People on
Windows don't think that way. It's just a computer, like a Ford Focus is
just a car.
 Though to be fair, in my experience at least 90% of all people
don't much care about privacy if it requires any effort. Apple
fans are just a bit more ninny-headed about it. Part of the reason
they use Apple devices is so that they won't have to think. (Most
of the people I know who switched to Macs did it for one reason:
They believed Macs were immune to malware, so they wouldn't
have to think about it. Essentially, Mac is today's AOL.)
In what manner to Apple users care less about privacy than Windows users?
They may believe Apple's claims about privacy, but that doesn't mean
they don't care.
And how is that about PRIVACY. Apple's iCloud backups are encrypted.
No, today the Mac is so reliable that all my tech support work is for my Windows customers.
On 2024-09-23 16:52, Newyana2 wrote:
...
  It's about privacy like Google Docs is about privacy. Once it's
on the cloud they have legal rights to it. And the default setting for
iCloud encryption is that they handle it for you, so that you don't
have to be responsible.
Really? You can produce the passage from Apple's terms and conditions
that supports that, can you?
On 9/23/2024 6:55 PM, Alan wrote:
They may believe Apple's claims about privacy, but that doesn't mean It's the same thing. Most people take an ostrich approach.
they don't care.
They care about privacy only if it requires no effort. They trust
Apple for the same reason. There's plenty of info about how
sleazy Apple is, but people don't want to know.
And how is that about PRIVACY. Apple's iCloud backups are encrypted.
 It's about privacy like Google Docs is about privacy. Once it's
on the cloud they have legal rights to it. And the default setting for
iCloud encryption is that they handle it for you, so that you don't
have to be responsible.
Compared to Windows, what privacy do you sacrifice?No, today the Mac is so reliable that all my tech support work is for
my Windows customers.
 No argument there. It's the modern day AOL. They take care of
the details for you. They also have a closed system. They make the
hardware. They control the software. So it's far more stable than
the Windows "eco-system". Microsoft are selling an operating system.
Apple are selling devices. If someone with money to burn and no interest
in tech asked me for advice, I'd probably recommend Apple products...
But I certainly wouldn't recommend them for privacy. It's a walled garden. Anyone who uses cloud, corporate webmail, online rental software,
on any computer, doesn't seriously care about privacy.
On 9/23/2024 4:58 PM, Alan wrote:
In what manner to Apple users care less about privacy than Windows users?
Apple babies their customers and tells them what they want. Their customers, in turn, trust them, despite having no reason for
doing so. (Apple runs their own ad business, after all.)
A good example is the "feature" to back up an iPhone online just
in case yours gets lost. Few Windows users would trust their
computer's contents to Microsoft.
And most are not so tech-illiterate that they'd need to.
I think this is difficult for Mac devotees to understand. They think they're in a club or on a team, opposed to Windows users. People on
Windows don't think that way. It's just a computer, like a Ford Focus is
just a car.
Though to be fair, in my experience at least 90% of all people
don't much care about privacy if it requires any effort. Apple
fans are just a bit more ninny-headed about it. Part of the reason
they use Apple devices is so that they won't have to think. (Most
of the people I know who switched to Macs did it for one reason:
They believed Macs were immune to malware, so they wouldn't
have to think about it. Essentially, Mac is today's AOL.)
It's about privacy like Google Docs is about privacy. Once it's
on the cloud they have legal rights to it. And the default setting for
iCloud encryption is that they handle it for you, so that you don't
have to be responsible.
Really? You can produce the passage from Apple's terms and conditions
that supports that, can you?
I'd like to see that claim substantiated too.
For it sounds to me like what Newyana2 is suggesting is effectively:
"Google does this, so everyone else has to be doing the same thing too."
On 9/23/2024 9:00 PM, -hh wrote:
 It's about privacy like Google Docs is about privacy. Once it's
on the cloud they have legal rights to it. And the default setting for >>>> iCloud encryption is that they handle it for you, so that you don't
have to be responsible.
Really? You can produce the passage from Apple's terms and conditions
that supports that, can you?
I'd like to see that claim substantiated too.
The two of you demonstrate my point, trying hard to find
excuses to not know the facts.
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
For it sounds to me like what Newyana2 is suggesting is effectively:
"Google does this, so everyone else has to be doing the same thing too."
Apple is as bad as Google, but that wasn't my point. The point was
that any cloud is giving up rights to your data, whether that's Apple, Google, MSO 365, Adobe rentals, gmail, etc.
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we damn
well please with your data").
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they want.
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
 Actually this started with me using the example of online iPhone
backup as an example of how people trust Apple and don't care
about their privacy. Alan then said the data is encrypted. This
blurb and link are simply to show that Apple does, indeed, have
access to the data by default.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we
damn well please with your data").
 They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent. There have
been cases where courts demanded all email from a gmail customer,
for example. But they don't demand it from the person. They demand
it from Google. For you to put your files on their server gives them a
degree of legal co-ownership. It's similar with Microsoft's online
data storage or Adobe's Photoshop rental. You data is no longer
completely yours once you let them hold it.
 Of course, Google claims the right to rifle through your email. Interestingly, attempts by non-gmailers to sue them over that have
failed. Google's basic argument is, "Hey, everyone knows we're sleazeballs. Anyone writing an email to a gmail account can reasonably be expected
to know that we're going to treat it as our property." And Google won!
I suppose it comes down to the idea that "possession is 9/10ths of ownership". It's also convenient for governments. Law enforcement demands that these companies hand over whatever they want. The companies
pretend to resist. But in the end, only the customer has an interest
in their own rights.
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again
to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they
want.
 :) I'm not going to substantiate anything. You're clearly a
starry eyed AppleSeed who will argue all day, despite any
amount of evidence. For people who actually want to know
the facts, there's plenty of info online, starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads... But of course, you didn't look that one up. If I were
using Apple devices, trusting their intentions, and someone
told me they'd been caught spying, I'd want to know the facts.
It's not my intention to argue with you or try to convert you. I
only post these things because if it were me, I'd want people
to tell me. And this is a public forum where people might come
across this info. And some people are not ostriches.
On 9/23/2024 9:00 PM, -hh wrote:
  It's about privacy like Google Docs is about privacy. Once it's
on the cloud they have legal rights to it. And the default setting for >>>> iCloud encryption is that they handle it for you, so that you don't
have to be responsible.
Really? You can produce the passage from Apple's terms and conditions
that supports that, can you?
I'd like to see that claim substantiated too.
The two of you demonstrate my point, trying hard to find
excuses to not know the facts.
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
For it sounds to me like what Newyana2 is suggesting is effectively:Apple is as bad as Google
"Google does this, so everyone else has to be doing the same thing too."
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
Actually this started with me using the example of online iPhone
backup as an example of how people trust Apple and don't care
about their privacy. Alan then said the data is encrypted. This
blurb and link are simply to show that Apple does, indeed, have
access to the data by default.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we
damn well please with your data").
They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent. There have
been cases where courts demanded all email from a gmail customer,
for example. But they don't demand it from the person. They demand
it from Google. For you to put your files on their server gives them a
degree of legal co-ownership. It's similar with Microsoft's online
data storage or Adobe's Photoshop rental. You data is no longer
completely yours once you let them hold it.
Of course, Google claims the right to rifle through your email. Interestingly, attempts by non-gmailers to sue them over that have
failed. Google's basic argument is, "Hey, everyone knows we're sleazeballs. Anyone writing an email to a gmail account can reasonably be expected
to know that we're going to treat it as our property." And Google won!
I suppose it comes down to the idea that "possession is 9/10ths of ownership". It's also convenient for governments. Law enforcement demands that these companies hand over whatever they want. The companies
pretend to resist. But in the end, only the customer has an interest
in their own rights.
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again
to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they
want.
:) I'm not going to substantiate anything. You're clearly a
starry eyed AppleSeed who will argue all day, despite any
amount of evidence. For people who actually want to know
the facts, there's plenty of info online, starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads... But of course, you didn't look that one up. If I were
using Apple devices, trusting their intentions, and someone
told me they'd been caught spying, I'd want to know the facts.
It's not my intention to argue with you or try to convert you. I
only post these things because if it were me, I'd want people
to tell me. And this is a public forum where people might come
across this info. And some people are not ostriches.
If you're one of the tin-foil hat wearing loonies, then the only way to
get real "privacy" is to live alone and completely self-sufficient in a
cave in the ass-end of nowhere, hundreds of miles from the nearest other person, and not use any public utilities or services.
On 9/24/2024 4:29 PM, Your Name wrote:
If you're one of the tin-foil hat wearing loonies, then the only way
to get real "privacy" is to live alone and completely self-sufficient
in a cave in the ass-end of nowhere, hundreds of miles from the
nearest other person, and not use any public utilities or services.
 Well put. That's exactly the logic of the ostrich. "Gee, it's
impossible anyway, so why bother?" Then to really reassure
yourself you can decide that anyone who cares about privacy
is a tinfoil hat wearing loony who lives in the wilderness.
 There is a grain of truth in that. I protect privacy. I don't
normally carry a cellphone. I block domains from Google and
trackers in my HOSTS file. But I also give up some convenience.
I'm not calling doordash to bring me a cup of coffee. I'm
not using Ubers. I'm not using Venmo because I'm not afraid
of cash. I don't get the BS discounts at Whole Foods that I could
get if I tell Bezos my shopping list. I know how to read a map,
so I don't need Waze. I don't use social media...
  For the average cellphone addict these days, surveillance
and ads are inseparable from normal daily life. So to think of
someone not diddling a cellphone through-out the day probably
does feel like loony-land to you.
 Interestingly, 2 of the 5 groups on this thread are privacy
groups.
On 9/24/2024 4:29 PM, Your Name wrote:
If you're one of the tin-foil hat wearing loonies, then the only way to
get real "privacy" is to live alone and completely self-sufficient in a
cave in the ass-end of nowhere, hundreds of miles from the nearest
other person, and not use any public utilities or services.
Well put. That's exactly the logic of the ostrich. "Gee, it's
impossible anyway, so why bother?" Then to really reassure
yourself you can decide that anyone who cares about privacy
is a tinfoil hat wearing loony who lives in the wilderness.
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
 Actually this started with me using the example of online iPhone
backup as an example of how people trust Apple and don't care
about their privacy. Alan then said the data is encrypted. This
blurb and link are simply to show that Apple does, indeed, have
access to the data by default.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we
damn well please with your data").
 They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent.
There have
been cases where courts demanded all email from a gmail customer,
for example. But they don't demand it from the person. They demand
it from Google. For you to put your files on their server gives them a
degree of legal co-ownership.
It's similar with Microsoft's online
data storage or Adobe's Photoshop rental. You data is no longer
completely yours once you let them hold it.
 Of course, Google claims the right to rifle through your email.
Interestingly, attempts by non-gmailers to sue them over that have
failed. Google's basic argument is, "Hey, everyone knows we're sleazeballs. Anyone writing an email to a gmail account can reasonably be expected
to know that we're going to treat it as our property." And Google won!
I suppose it comes down to the idea that "possession is 9/10ths of ownership".
It's also convenient for governments. Law enforcement demands
that these companies hand over whatever they want. The companies
pretend to resist. But in the end, only the customer has an interest
in their own rights.
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again
to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they
want.
 :) I'm not going to substantiate anything.
They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent.
Only in the US. Fortunately in Europe we have data privacy laws that
actually mean something.
starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads...
That was technical error about informing users appropriately; not that they were caught spying. It was also historical and had already been corrected.
On 9/26/2024 5:33 AM, Chris wrote:
  They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent.
Only in the US. Fortunately in Europe we have data privacy laws that
actually mean something.
 Indeed. Civilized law serving the public is not on the horizon
in our plutocratic US system.
 "for illegally harvesting iPhone owners’ data for targeted ads without proper consent."starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads...
That was technical error about informing users appropriately; not that
they
were caught spying. It was also historical and had already been
corrected.
 Collecting data from iPhones is spyware. Consent implies that
people had a choice and could have said no....
On 9/24/2024 11:45 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
  Actually this started with me using the example of online iPhone
backup as an example of how people trust Apple and don't care
about their privacy. Alan then said the data is encrypted. This
blurb and link are simply to show that Apple does, indeed, have
access to the data by default.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we
damn well please with your data").
  They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent. There have
been cases where courts demanded all email from a gmail customer,
for example. But they don't demand it from the person. They demand
it from Google. For you to put your files on their server gives them a
degree of legal co-ownership. It's similar with Microsoft's online
data storage or Adobe's Photoshop rental. You data is no longer
completely yours once you let them hold it.
  Of course, Google claims the right to rifle through your email.
Interestingly, attempts by non-gmailers to sue them over that have
failed. Google's basic argument is, "Hey, everyone knows we're
sleazeballs.
Anyone writing an email to a gmail account can reasonably be expected
to know that we're going to treat it as our property." And Google won!
I suppose it comes down to the idea that "possession is 9/10ths of
ownership". It's also convenient for governments. Law enforcement demands
that these companies hand over whatever they want. The companies
pretend to resist. But in the end, only the customer has an interest
in their own rights.
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again
to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they
want.
  :) I'm not going to substantiate anything. You're clearly a
starry eyed AppleSeed who will argue all day, despite any
amount of evidence. For people who actually want to know
the facts, there's plenty of info online, starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads... But of course, you didn't look that one up. If I were
using Apple devices, trusting their intentions, and someone
told me they'd been caught spying, I'd want to know the facts.
It's not my intention to argue with you or try to convert you. I
only post these things because if it were me, I'd want people
to tell me. And this is a public forum where people might come
across this info. And some people are not ostriches.
I seem to remember an instance from some years back where a couple who
had shot up some folks were turned into mincemeat by law enforcement. An iPhone of theirs survived the hail of bullets. Apple would not give the
cops the encryption key. Cops had to turn to a hacker to get into the
phone.
On 9/24/2024 11:45 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
"Standard data protection is the default setting for your account.
Your iCloud data is encrypted, the encryption keys are secured in
Apple data centers so we can help you with data recovery, and
only certain data is end-to-end encrypted."
Translation: Apple have your data.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
Except that it wasn't in contention that Apple has one's data.
Actually this started with me using the example of online iPhone
backup as an example of how people trust Apple and don't care
about their privacy. Alan then said the data is encrypted. This
blurb and link are simply to show that Apple does, indeed, have
access to the data by default.
What was in contention was your claim that Apple is like Google, in
claiming unlimited legal rights to it (e.g. "we can do whatever we
damn well please with your data").
They don't need to claim. It's already legal precendent. There have
been cases where courts demanded all email from a gmail customer,
for example. But they don't demand it from the person. They demand
it from Google. For you to put your files on their server gives them a
degree of legal co-ownership. It's similar with Microsoft's online
data storage or Adobe's Photoshop rental. You data is no longer
completely yours once you let them hold it.
Of course, Google claims the right to rifle through your email.
Interestingly, attempts by non-gmailers to sue them over that have
failed. Google's basic argument is, "Hey, everyone knows we're sleazeballs. >> Anyone writing an email to a gmail account can reasonably be expected
to know that we're going to treat it as our property." And Google won!
I suppose it comes down to the idea that "possession is 9/10ths of
ownership". It's also convenient for governments. Law enforcement demands
that these companies hand over whatever they want. The companies
pretend to resist. But in the end, only the customer has an interest
in their own rights.
Now the above language doesn't say that for Apple so please try again
to substantiate your assertion that Apple is free to do whatever they
want.
:) I'm not going to substantiate anything. You're clearly a
starry eyed AppleSeed who will argue all day, despite any
amount of evidence. For people who actually want to know
the facts, there's plenty of info online, starting with the fine
by the French gov't last year because Apple was spying on
iPhone users without permission, for the purpose of targetted
ads... But of course, you didn't look that one up. If I were
using Apple devices, trusting their intentions, and someone
told me they'd been caught spying, I'd want to know the facts.
It's not my intention to argue with you or try to convert you. I
only post these things because if it were me, I'd want people
to tell me. And this is a public forum where people might come
across this info. And some people are not ostriches.
I seem to remember an instance from some years back where a couple who
had shot up some folks were turned into mincemeat by law enforcement.
An iPhone of theirs survived the hail of bullets. Apple would not give
the cops the encryption key. Cops had to turn to a hacker to get into
the phone.
On 2024-09-30 18:07:45 +0000, Tom Elam said:
On 9/24/2024 11:45 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 9/24/2024 9:13 AM, -hh wrote:
It's not my intention to argue with you or try to convert you. I
only post these things because if it were me, I'd want people
to tell me. And this is a public forum where people might come
across this info. And some people are not ostriches.
I seem to remember an instance from some years back where a couple who
had shot up some folks were turned into mincemeat by law enforcement.
An iPhone of theirs survived the hail of bullets. Apple would not give
the cops the encryption key. Cops had to turn to a hacker to get into
the phone.
Apple can not give anyone access to someone else's device. Apple stores
the user's *public key* on their servers, but the user *private key* is stored on the device itself. There's no way for Apple to access that
private key, even if they wanted to ... despite what the brainless
numbnut trolls and conspiracy nutters like "Newyana2" want to
idiotically believe.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 361 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 123:29:40 |
| Calls: | 7,716 |
| Files: | 12,861 |
| Messages: | 5,727,956 |