• One blind mouse

    From Jim the Geordie@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 17 18:47:35 2024
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.
    --
    Jim the Geordie

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  • From Jim the Geordie@21:1/5 to Fokke Nauta on Tue Sep 17 19:51:31 2024
    On 17/09/2024 19:37, Fokke Nauta wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black
    mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.


    Possibly your mouse pads reflect light? They must be dull.

    Fokke

    Both new fabric. Mouse works well on my wooden desk, but noisy and uncomfortable on wrist.

    --
    Jim the Geordie

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  • From Fokke Nauta@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Tue Sep 17 20:37:42 2024
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.


    Possibly your mouse pads reflect light? They must be dull.

    Fokke

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  • From Paul in Houston TX@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Tue Sep 17 15:15:34 2024
    Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Mice are particular. Each of mine prefers it's own pad and won't use
    some other mouse's pad.

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  • From Graham J@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Tue Sep 17 23:06:14 2024
    Jim the Geordie wrote:

    [Snip]


    Both new fabric. Mouse works well on my wooden desk, but noisy and uncomfortable on wrist.


    I find that a cork floor tile works well as a mouse mat.

    --
    Graham J

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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Tue Sep 17 18:30:06 2024
    Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    I use a Logitech M100 mouse. Nothing special: just a 3-button LED mouse
    with scrollwheel, but it is wired. I found cordless mice more heavy due
    to the battery. I stick with LED mice. Laser mice are overly sensitive
    at a greater distance. I can hover a laser mouse a couple inches from
    the mat, and still get the mouse pointer to move. Since mice always
    require lifting and repositioning (unless you have a huge mat the size
    of your monitor even with acceleration enabled for the mouse since that
    only applies with large movement), it is harder to lift and move a laser
    mouse without the mouse pointer moving on the screen, or in a game.

    No way to tell which cordless mouse you use other than it is some
    Logitech models. The old models had battery longevity and sensitivity
    issues. Black pads may absorb too much of the light for the detector to
    notice movement. I've used the Belkin mouse pad with gel wrist rest for
    many years, replacing them eventually as they get burnished with wear.
    I've always gotten black ones. I do recall years ago having to use a
    gray pad, because the mouse would stick on the black ones (movement was
    jerky because the sensor wasn't sensitive enough to detect movement).
    Saying you changed from black to red doesn't say if it was a light or
    dark red. Dark red, dark green, and dark anything will absorb a lot of
    the light just as does black.

    If you stop using the black pad to use the mouse directly on your desk,
    and assuming you don't have a glass top on your desk or it is shiny
    metal, see if the mouse suddenly becomes more responsive. Might not be
    as comfortable, but you want to see if it's the pad as the cause. Long
    before the batteries are detected as too low, flaky behavior with low
    charge is another reason I don't use cordless mice. You said you tried
    fresh batteries, but where they alkaline or NiMH or lithium or what?
    Different chemistries will have different voltages, capacity (coloumbs),
    and drain rates. Rechargeables have more cycles, but drain faster, and
    not as much load capacity.

    You said fresh batteries, but not which chemistry, and which brand. I
    stopped buying Duracell because they leak too often, and testing has
    proven they don't have longer use-time nor higher load capacity.
    Duracell uses a more liquid paste. If it leaks, it can more easily
    spread easier to damage more of the contact, and even get inside the electronics. Energizers have a thicker paste. Don't waste money on
    cheap crap (e.g., Rayovac, Northern, Everready, store brand, unknown).
    It is possible a fresh pack of batteries immediately fail. Only takes
    one weak battery to ruin performance of a set of 2, or more, in series.

    How about switching to a gray pad instead of black? Not some other dark
    color, but a light colored pad. Obviously black absorbs more light, so
    less to reflect back to the detector. If I had a problem with the black
    Belkin gel wrist pad, I'd try their gray one. The sensor draws the most
    power. A lightly colored mouse pad cab boost battery life. Not an
    issue with wired mice. Dark, rought, or dull surfaces absorb more of
    the light hence less getting back to the sensor. There needs to be some texture for the sensor to detect a change in position. A perfectly
    smooth surface is a poor choice for a mouse pad.

    Besides not mentioning which specific cordless mouse you have, and which battery chemistry you use, also not mentioned is whose mouse pad (make
    and model) you use. The material matters. The ones I get use lycra
    affixed to neoprene. They may get burnished from wear, but they don't
    fray (and not just at the edges, but also across the surface).
    Polyester and jersey are other good fabrics for the surface.

    Have you looked inside the pocket with the LED on the underside? Often
    lint or debris gets stuck in there. Use an ear swab and tweezers to
    pull out the debris. Put a bright light over the upturned mouse and
    change angles of the mouse to catch the light at different angles on any
    hair or lint. If a hair is across the sensor, it may not detect
    movement on the pad, or movement can jump a lot as the hair flexes.

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  • From wasbit@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 08:56:10 2024
    On 17/09/2024 19:51, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:37, Fokke Nauta wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black
    mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.


    Possibly your mouse pads reflect light? They must be dull.

    Fokke

    Both new fabric. Mouse works well on my wooden desk, but noisy and uncomfortable on wrist.


    You have answered your own question.
    The mouse works fine on your desk so you have to find a surface that the
    mouse will work on.


    --
    Regards
    wasbit

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  • From Philip Herlihy@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 18 09:14:50 2024
    In article <vccfbm$p9pg$1@paganini.bofh.team>, Jim the Geordie wrote...

    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Haven't used a mouse mat in decades!
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CJTYJJYK

    --

    Phil, London

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  • From occam@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 14:46:20 2024
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

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  • From Jim the Geordie@21:1/5 to occam on Wed Sep 18 14:39:14 2024
    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad?
    Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.
    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old.
    Is that about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back
    to corded.

    --
    Jim the Geordie

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  • From John@21:1/5 to jim@jimXscott.co.uk on Wed Sep 18 16:21:11 2024
    On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 14:39:14 +0100, Jim the Geordie
    <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? >>> Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.

    That will cause issues. Which issues depends on the mouse. Sometimes
    the clicky doesn't affect the cursor, sometimes dragging is slow or
    missing, sometimes the pointer just sticks in one spot until the
    rodent is fed new batteries.

    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old.

    They are supposed to do that. It's a power-saving trick. It shouldn't
    die completely, it should wake up on any movement but it may not if
    the power levels are too low. Sometimes it won't.

    The laser light and the radio switch off after the rodent isn't used
    for a short time. This power-saver interval can often be set in the
    rat's configuration files.

    Is that about right in terms of battery life?

    That is impossible to answer. I get a couple of years out of power
    cells but I only use the mousey once a week or so. Gamers using the
    rodent a lot every day might only get a couple of weeks.

    It also depends on the batteries. Some power cells are complete shite
    and are hardly charged when sold. This shouldn't happen but it does.
    The cheaper the cell and the less well-known the maker the worse it
    could be.

    On the other hand, some cheap, no-name cells are wonderful.

    Rechargeables are cool. Sometimes. Though you need a set charging
    while using a set in the mouse.

    If not then I may go back
    to corded.

    There ain't nothing wrong with wired rats. Also, they don't have a
    wi-fi connection for the snoops to snoop upon so it makes their lives
    a little harder. :)

    Not a lot but a little.

    J.

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  • From Frank Slootweg@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 15:38:48 2024
    Jim the Geordie <jim@jimxscott.co.uk> wrote:
    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? >> Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.
    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old. Is that about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back
    to corded.

    For the Logitech M220 wireless mouse which I mentioned, the single AA
    battery lasted for well over 2 years. Not heavy use, but regular use.

    But as others also mentioned, YMMV/YMWV.

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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 11:26:44 2024
    On Wed, 9/18/2024 9:39 AM, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? >>> Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.
    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old. Is that about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back to corded.


    I think some have achieved two years from batteries. Note that, once the
    power dissipation gets this low, there can be substantial variation from
    unit to unit (some units seemingly "lemons"). It's not like the batteries
    last "two years plus or minus a day".

    Mice use an optical array, and spot movement via correlation
    of pixel activity. I found one picture yesterday, of the ability
    of the mouse sensor to take a crude picture of the human operator,
    when the mouse is turned towards the human. The image of course,
    is monochromatic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_mouse

    "Modern surface-independent optical mice work by using an optoelectronic sensor
    (essentially, a tiny low-resolution video camera) to take successive images of
    the surface on which the mouse operates. As computing power grew cheaper, it
    became possible to embed more powerful special-purpose image-processing chips
    in the mouse itself. This advance enabled the mouse to detect relative motion
    on a wide variety of surfaces, translating the movement of the mouse into the
    movement of the cursor and eliminating the need for a special mouse-pad.

    A surface-independent coherent light optical mouse design was patented by
    Stephen B. Jackson at Xerox in 1988, despite never being shown to work.[14]
    "

    *******

    "Some mice, such as the Logitech V450 848 nm laser mouse, are capable of functioning
    on two AA batteries for a full year, due to the low power requirements of the
    infrared laser."

    One of the reasons it works, is even in low light, it is not necessary
    for the sensor to develop a "clear picture" of the mouse pad for this to
    work. All that it needs for the DSP (digital signal processing), is
    for the sensor to not be entirely saturated. As long as the dynamic range
    of the sensor shows "some variation", the DSP can do correlation and
    extract "signal" from noise.

    To reduce the effects of sensor noise, you can "pulse" the light source,
    and only enable the global shutter on the array, in synchrony with the light source (similar to a "flash" camera). This makes the random noise of the sensor in low light, less evident. The human eye averages the pulses, and your eye can't
    really tell you what kind of peak power the source is developing (once it pulses more than say, 200 times per second) .

    *******

    Other optical mice, before the array one was invented, did not
    work nearly as well. You definitely needed just the right
    "feature pitch" on the mouse pad, to make the older mice work.

    If it wasn't for the array, essentially the SNR would be terrible
    and the thing would never work. It's the array that helps the modern
    mouse work. And, it's the DSP, that shows when a "pixel" has moved
    to the next array position. And it can get a bit better, if the
    optical emitter is a laser.

    Once the light emission is too weak on the mouse, then the
    DSP has no non-zero signals to work with from the array.

    As far as I know, the processing is done locally in the mouse, and
    there is no particular need for the array picture to be made available
    to the host. All the mouse need indicate, is the +/-x or +/-y amount
    since the last update.

    Paul

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  • From Frank Slootweg@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 15:20:19 2024
    Jim the Geordie <jim@jimxscott.co.uk> wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Not much help, but our Logitech M220 wireless mouse (part of a
    Logitech MK295 Silent Wireless Keyboard and Mouse combo) works fine on a light-blue mousepad. N.B. The colour is similar to the Windows colour
    'Blue'.

    As Fokke mentioned, the mousepad surface must not be too reflective.
    Ours has a fabric surface, i.e. not plastic or some such.

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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 13:53:25 2024
    Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low. The mouse switches
    itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old. Is that
    about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back to
    corded.

    I tried several cordless mice of different brands and models. I gave up
    on them. The keyboard and mouse on my desktop are in the same place all
    the time, so I don't need portability. A corded mouse and keyboard
    don't have the problem of draining of capacity of cordless devices. I
    noticed flaky behavior before the cordless mouse and keyboard said their batteries were low. Corded always has full power.

    With corded, provided the batteries are replaceable, I'd use
    rechargeable batteries although though don't last as long on a charge as alkaline, but I wasn't trashing alkalines. I always had to have a spare
    set of rechargeables to swap when the current ones got low. Some mice
    have longer battery lifetimes, but too many I tried only lasted a little
    over a month. I'm on my computer a LOT, and I needed a mouse pad with a
    gel wrist rest to reduce wear on the heel of my palm and add comfort.
    Without a pad, I'd get a burnished spot on the outside low part of my
    palm (hypothenor near wrist), and it got sore.

    I know lots of folks will claim battery uptime of 3 months, or much
    longer. I never got anywhere close to that. Depends on how much time
    you're at your computer. While mice have an auto low-power or off mode,
    my mice are never idle long enough unless I'm away from the computer,
    like when I sleep, so they only powered down when I was away for a long
    time, not when I was busy at the computer, and I'm at the computer a
    LOT. Some mice have charging docks. That's great to charge when you're
    away, but not when battery is low while you're trying to use the mouse.
    Same situation with mobile phones: charge when not using, else you're
    nuisanced with changing batteries (becoming a rare option) or finding a receptable or USB port to charge, and wait until some after some
    charging before regaining use of the mobile phone. Go to the airport
    where you'll see an outlet surrounding by phone users charging their
    phone, or doing the same at those always populated phone stalls/desks.

    There is also the added weight of the batteries. If you don't compute
    much, not a problem. A problem for me. My wrist would get fatigued
    from having to push around a heavier mouse due to the batteries inside.
    More weight also means more friction against the pad. Worn friction
    pads on the bottomside of the mouse are a pain to replace provided you
    can find replacements (usually more cost effective to just buy another
    mouse).

    Will a BT mouse work before the OS is loaded which loads the BT drivers
    for the BT hardware? If not, how are you going to boot into the BIOS
    config screens, or hit hotkeys during boot? What if you configure your
    BIOS to use a system password that halts the booting with a prompt for a password that you have to use the keyboard to enter a password? The OS
    is responsible for managing the BT device pairing. Wireless mice might
    work, though, if the mobo supports wifi devices in the BIOS. Some mobos
    will work with BT mice; see:

    https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000016213/intel-nuc.html

    The mobos I've used didn't have this feature. My current desktop build
    with Asrock Taichi mobo was put together in May 2019, and it didn't have
    a BT pairing feature in the BIOS. Tis a pain to hook up a wired
    keyboard during boot to enter the system password or to get into the
    BIOS config screens while using a BT for regular input after the OS
    loads. Once you have to hook up a wired keyboard to compensate for an
    unusable BT keyboard until the OS loads, you might as well stay with the
    wired keyboard.

    For mobile computers, wireless/RF or BT input devices have some
    advantages and conveniences (mostly just portability) along with
    disadvantages (non-constant power level, battery swaps or waiting for recharging, extra weight*).

    * I once found a corded mice that added a weight glued inside the
    mouse. Oh yes, a heftier mouse just must be more solidly built.

    Where you are using your cordless mouse now, does it really need to be a portable mouse? Or is it always in the same place, like on a desk? Manufacturers push cordless mice, because they can charge more for a
    larger profit margin. I also still use corded Ethernet to connect my
    computers at home instead of some folks that don't want to bother
    running CAT5 cable through their home (or it's not their property, like rentals), so they use wifi from their computers to wifi access points or
    to the wifi cable modem. No problem with obstructions or attenutation
    to wifi signal when using cable. No passwords to access. No SSIDs to discover. Much simpler and more stable setup on the computer.

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  • From Jim the Geordie@21:1/5 to Frank Slootweg on Wed Sep 18 19:24:43 2024
    On 18/09/2024 16:38, Frank Slootweg wrote:
    Jim the Geordie <jim@jimxscott.co.uk> wrote:
    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? >>>> Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.
    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old. >> Is that about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back
    to corded.

    For the Logitech M220 wireless mouse which I mentioned, the single AA battery lasted for well over 2 years. Not heavy use, but regular use.

    But as others also mentioned, YMMV/YMWV.

    Thanks.
    Replaced batteries (or should I say cells) and noted date of replacement.
    WSS

    --
    Jim the Geordie

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  • From Char Jackson@21:1/5 to Jim the Geordie on Wed Sep 18 15:07:14 2024
    On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 14:39:14 +0100, Jim the Geordie <jim@jimXscott.co.uk> wrote:

    On 18/09/2024 13:46, occam wrote:
    On 17/09/2024 19:47, Jim the Geordie wrote:
    Does anyone here have trouble with a cordless mouse on a black mousepad? >>> Sometimes it just doesn't move the cursor
    I tried a plain red pad too and that's not much better
    It is a new Logik with red led and fresh batteries.

    Why are you conflating two unrelated issues?

    Cordless = bluetooth (or wi fi)
    Mouse = reflective surface (laser) or slippery surface (roller ball)

    Laser mice can be very fickle, depending on design.

    Just checked the batteries, which were pretty low.

    My Logitech M705 has an LED on top that glows green when the batteries are good,
    then red when it's time to replace them. Once the red LED starts to show, I know
    I only have about 4-6 months left. I use the mouse a LOT, and I only get about 2-2.5 years on a set of two AA batteries. Logitech says most people should expect to get a full 3 years, but I never have.

    The mouse switches itself off when not in use, but it is only 3 months old. >Is that about right in terms of battery life? If not then I may go back
    to corded.

    I use batteries from Harbor Freight, which in my experience work just as well as
    any big name brand while costing much less. I've never had one leak, so I guess that makes them better than Duracell.

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