On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend? That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a frontend?
That gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
It seems very unlikely that MS would abandon Access - there are just too
many databases out there.
In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen: https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
install the database engine for the database system that you're using
with Access.
[Access is] not being discontinued.
The latest stand-alone edition in suite or single application is 2021.
- The stand-alone 2024 LTSC(volume license only) commercial preview was
made available earlier this year(April).
The RTM version later this
year. Likewise, the stand-alone perpetual consumer edition(Professional)
will also be released.
Access is **not** included stand-alone perpetual of Office
Home-Student or Home-Business
Access is also included in current subscription plans(already at 2024
version level)
On 5 Aug 2024 02:34:37 GMT, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:frontend?
On Sun, 4 Aug 2024 22:30:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro >><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v8ovem$8t63$7@dont-email.me>:
On 4 Aug 2024 17:54:40 GMT, vallor wrote:
When I think of the average computer user, I think of my folks. (Dad
just turned 84.) I'd love to get them on Linux, but they have a good
chunk of their personal organizing locked up in MS Access databases.
How about converting to SQLite and using LibreOffice Base as a
one-timeThat gets you away from the limitations of Microsoft Access.
That would mean throwing away umpteen databases and reports, developed
over the span of decades. I don't think that's practicable.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Went to buy a copy at Amazon, and MS Access 2010 seems to be
the latest version. That can't be the latest version,
can it? Is Microsoft abandoning Access?
"Microsoft Access 2021 is the latest version of Access available as a
purchase. Previous versions include Access 2019, Access 2016, Access2013,
Access 2010, Access 2007, and Access 2003."
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/access
I've never really used Access but it looks like it's still around.
On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.
Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
install the database engine for the database system that you're using
with Access.
Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data
and convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS
backends.
I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS Access.
On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS Access.
LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite, either
of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.
On 8/6/24 10:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:Access.
On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS
either
LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite,
of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.
Except Access had a nice WYSIWYG form builder.
Libre had that for AWHILE ... but not so much anymore.
It's 'database' is mostly a limited front-end for a
spreadsheet.
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
Not much use for home/personal users, is it?
On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data and convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS backends.
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
install the database engine for the database system that you're using
with Access.
Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
Excel with appropriate connector that is available from Microsoft.
I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...
On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody”.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/6/24 10:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:Access.
On 7 Aug 2024 02:16:13 GMT, vallor wrote:
I've heard that LO Base has no where near the capabilities of MS
either
LibreOffice Base supports backends like MySQL/MariaDB and SQLite,
of which goes way beyond the capabilities of Microsoft Access.
Except Access had a nice WYSIWYG form builder.
For its time, maybe.
Libre had that for AWHILE ... but not so much anymore.
It's 'database' is mostly a limited front-end for a
spreadsheet.
That’s the “Tables” view in the Databse. Besides that, you also have “Queries”, “Forms” and “Reports”. Try it some time.
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few
DBs using it over the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
On 06/08/2024 01:26, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On 6 Aug 2024 08:47:36 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:Users can import Access database in MS-SQL and access the data using
In comp.os.linux.misc vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:Should stay up long enough, at least, so you can extract all the data and
As I said, I'd like to try Access on Linux using WINE or proton.Some hints here for WINE, in case you haven't already seen:
https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=12
Seems you might need to use the "Winetricks" system to separately
install the database engine for the database system that you're using
with Access.
convert the system to LibreOffice Base with your choice of DBMS backends.
Excel with appropriate connector that is available from Microsoft.
MS-SQL Express edition is free for users. It is available for Windows,
Linux and Docker container. There is a learning curve for people who are
new to industry class databases but once this is passed, the user would
be quite happy to use it assuming he has mastery of creating Forms in
Excel. With forms you can post new entries and also retrieve the entries
like any databases including Access. There are many tutorials available online and on YouTube.
<https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/sql-server/sql-server-downloads>
On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.
On 8/7/24 6:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.
With 16tb drives these days ... yea.
The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access
was the superior way ...
Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
In article <v90pqf$3cs1v$2@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote...
Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
I think that would depend on which team you ask!
Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing elseI liked Dbase. I wrote many a program for it to dump stats for management. Silly stats, but you
comes close to filling.
Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
comes close to filling. Many, many a small business is held together by
an Access database or app.
Now we have sqlite there isn't much point, but it was good back in the
day.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:38:00 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:
I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...
Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the >> kind of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
comes close to filling.
I liked Dbase.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing
else comes close to filling.
Make that past tense. It isn’t true any more.
Do you have examples?
On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 13:21:15 +0100, Pancho wrote:
Now we have sqlite there isn't much point, but it was good back in the
day.
SQLite has to be the world’s most popular DBMS. You very likely have a
copy right next to you, in your mobile phone.
On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody”.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody”.
Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over >>>>> the years and it was quite capable.
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.
Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
There is a mechanism. Mount points.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/assign-a-mount-point-folder-path-to-a-drive
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday
(GMT):
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.
Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 04:15:09 -0400, Paul wrote:
There is a mechanism. Mount points.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/assign-a-mount-point-folder-path-to-a-drive
Windows Server only?
No.
"Applies To: Windows 11, Windows 10"
Works fine on both.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:44:32 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 6:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.
With 16tb drives these days ... yea.
Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access
was the superior way ...
LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL view, and table view, if you need those.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:39:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.
That’s why it’s time to move on.
On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
comes close to filling. Many, many a small business is held together by
an Access database or app.
A ranger at one of the national parks wrote a whole records management app using Access. I guess he was bored during the winter season.I was
impressed.
I've pulled data from Access but it was just another ODBC/DNS connection.
I'd never seen a working app.
Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's "solutions".
On 8/7/24 11:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access was the superior way
...
LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL
view, and table view, if you need those.
Decent FORMS are generally more foolproof for employees than the
'sheet' format.
Access let you attach a lot of code - ie
"idiot/error-protection" - to each box on the form. Never checked if
Libre is so flexible.
On 8/7/24 11:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:39:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.
That’s why it’s time to move on.
Or be creative ... DBs can be split up into <2gb sections.
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:28:19 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for the Payroll
stuff.
Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
names.
Nothing is idiot proof. The best you can hope for is idiot resistant.
On Mon, 8/12/2024 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptiveThe volumes have labels and letters.
names.
My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:28:19 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for the Payroll
stuff.
Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
names.
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
"solutions".
Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:33:06 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/7/24 11:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access was the superior way
...
LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL
view, and table view, if you need those.
Decent FORMS are generally more foolproof for employees than the
'sheet' format.
Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.
Access let you attach a lot of code - ie
"idiot/error-protection" - to each box on the form. Never checked if
Libre is so flexible.
LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:19 -0400, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 8/12/2024 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptiveThe volumes have labels and letters.
names.
My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".
But you can’t use that to refer to your files, can you?
... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost any need.
On Mon, 8/12/2024 10:10 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:19 -0400, Paul wrote:In a GUI oriented system, when am I referring to files that way ?
My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".
But you can’t use that to refer to your files, can you?
On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
"solutions".
Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
- have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
On 8/12/24 4:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.
Well, never say "naturally" - what's in v9.10 might not be in v9.11
LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.
ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
worth it.
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
"solutions".
Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
- have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
the economic gene pool.
On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
- have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
the economic gene pool.
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost any
need.
Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them to
mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
On Tue, 8/13/2024 5:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Is that a practical consideration ? No.
... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost
any need.
Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them
to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
If I had 128 partitions on a GPT disk, it would not be a problem for
them to all be NTFS. I would still get the usage of the storage device.
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/
On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...
On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
- have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they >>> go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company. >>>
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of >>> the economic gene pool.
Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 02:50:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/
What’s hilarious about that is it takes much longer than an hour for Windows to update itself
<https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/02/01/2056211>.
On 2024-08-12, shemp13@outlook.com <shemp13@outlook.com> wrote:
Nothing is idiot proof. The best you can hope for is idiot resistant.
It is difficult to make a system foolproof because fools are so
ingenious.
I love testing a new system with a totally naive user.
It always amazes me to watch the kind of inputs they
manage to come up with - stuff I could never imagine.
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:31:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/12/24 4:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.
Well, never say "naturally" - what's in v9.10 might not be in v9.11
I know regressions happen a lot with proprietary software: “let’s save that feature for the Pro version”. Less common in Open Source, though: stuff only gets removed when nobody cares about it.
LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.
ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
worth it.
Given that LibreOffice does it all, and is available for less cost and
with fewer restrictions, the answer has to be no
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:28:01 -0400, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 8/13/2024 5:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Is that a practical consideration ? No.
... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost
any need.
Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them
to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
If I had 128 partitions on a GPT disk, it would not be a problem for
them to all be NTFS. I would still get the usage of the storage device.
NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.
On 8/13/24 5:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:31:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
worth it.
Given that LibreOffice does it all, and is available for less cost and
with fewer restrictions, the answer has to be no
I'll have to get further into it ... but meanwhile I will not just
assume "LibreOffice Does It All".
On Tue, 8/13/2024 11:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.What way would that be ?
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux ...
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 04:13:59 -0400, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 8/13/2024 11:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.What way would that be ?
Still insists on keeping open files locked, for one thing.
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux ...
But it is Microsoft that is desperately trying to turn Windows into Linux, not the other way round. The market leader does not have to pay attention
to the market followers, it is they who must be compatible with the market leader.
It is Microsoft trying very hard to make Windows more compatible with
Linux.
On Wed, 8/14/2024 4:48 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 04:13:59 -0400, Paul wrote:
On Tue, 8/13/2024 11:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.
What way would that be ?
Still insists on keeping open files locked, for one thing.
Haven't seen that in a while.
We used to have that problem at work, at the startup I worked at.
The business had a very fancy backup system (backs up
files every ten minutes, dedups them, you can walk
back in time to get a copy of anything). There
are a couple kinds of locks, and it would tell
me "your file is locked by Paul". Yeah, and as
Paul, I happen to know the file is not open right now,
but that did not matter. The server concluded it
was still open.
I haven't seen one of those in twenty years. I don't know what
the root cause is exactly, so I cannot predict what your
statistics will be like. I suspect being in a domain
and using roaming, is part of the scenario.
On 8/12/24 6:48 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-12, shemp13@outlook.com <shemp13@outlook.com> wrote:
Nothing is idiot proof. The best you can hope for is idiot resistant.
It is difficult to make a system foolproof because fools are so
ingenious.
I love testing a new system with a totally naive user.
It always amazes me to watch the kind of inputs they
manage to come up with - stuff I could never imagine.
Discovered - with systems/apps that involve a lot
of user input, nearly HALF of your code will be
dedicated to how MANY ways they can fuck it up and
what to DO about it :-)
On 2024-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux ...
But it is Microsoft that is desperately trying to turn Windows into
Linux, not the other way round. The market leader does not have to pay
attention to the market followers, it is they who must be compatible
with the market leader.
It is Microsoft trying very hard to make Windows more compatible with
Linux.
"Embrace, extend, extinguish."
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:52:29 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux ...
But it is Microsoft that is desperately trying to turn Windows into
Linux, not the other way round. The market leader does not have to pay
attention to the market followers, it is they who must be compatible
with the market leader.
It is Microsoft trying very hard to make Windows more compatible with
Linux.
"Embrace, extend, extinguish."
Microsoft tried “extinguish” first. Remember “Linux is a cancer”? Remember
their claim that Linux infringed 200 of their patents? (Of course they
would never say which ones.) All their FUD nonsense, like their notorious “Get The Facts” campaign?
It was all for naught. They threw all the weaponry (economic, legal, PR)
they had at their command at Linux, and failed to knock it off. “Extinguish” was a failure. And now Microsoft is no longer the undisputed market leader, it is playing catch-up to Linux.
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 16:52:29 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux ...
But it is Microsoft that is desperately trying to turn Windows into
Linux, not the other way round. The market leader does not have to pay
attention to the market followers, it is they who must be compatible
with the market leader.
It is Microsoft trying very hard to make Windows more compatible with
Linux.
"Embrace, extend, extinguish."
Microsoft tried “extinguish” first. Remember “Linux is a cancer”? Remember
their claim that Linux infringed 200 of their patents? (Of course they
would never say which ones.) All their FUD nonsense, like their notorious “Get The Facts” campaign?
It was all for naught. They threw all the weaponry (economic, legal, PR)
they had at their command at Linux, and failed to knock it off. “Extinguish” was a failure. And now Microsoft is no longer the undisputed market leader, it is playing catch-up to Linux.
On 8/13/24 10:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:ww/
On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...
On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management >>>>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that
deliberately cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their
technological choices are more likely to come a cropper in the
marketplace. Either they go out of business, or they get acquired by
some more successful company.
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased
out of the economic gene pool.
Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-
M$, and it's lawyers & suckers, have entirely different ideas - they
WILL press, hard, for M$ dominance.
Technical superiority won't COUNT in most situations. M$ is - by
effort/propaganda - THE de-facto standard. Doesn't matter how much it
sucks.
This is the REALITY.
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux - so we'd better have a good
REPLACEMENT. Just sayin'
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote in <MZOdnWbqhIRz_CH7nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
On 8/13/24 10:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:ww/
On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...
On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped >>>>>> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management >>>>>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that
deliberately cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their
technological choices are more likely to come a cropper in the
marketplace. Either they go out of business, or they get acquired by >>>>> some more successful company.
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased
out of the economic gene pool.
Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-
M$, and it's lawyers & suckers, have entirely different ideas - they
WILL press, hard, for M$ dominance.
Technical superiority won't COUNT in most situations. M$ is - by
effort/propaganda - THE de-facto standard. Doesn't matter how much it
sucks.
This is the REALITY.
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux - so we'd better have a good
REPLACEMENT. Just sayin'
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is a
Linux subsystem in Windows now.
Which is reasonable, considering that Linux dominates
everywhere else _except_ the (shrinking) desktop market.
"Can't we all just get along?"
Linux is doing well in the server world, but the desktop will be a much harder sell.
On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 00:30:45 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Linux is doing well in the server world, but the desktop will be a much
harder sell.
What I think is happening is the definition of “desktop” is actually shrinking as Linux gobbles up the entire rest of the computing market.
For example, the Linux-based Steam Deck is making inroads in handheld
gaming, where the Windows-based competitors are struggling to follow.
On 2024-08-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 8/12/24 6:48 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-08-12, shemp13@outlook.com <shemp13@outlook.com> wrote:
Nothing is idiot proof. The best you can hope for is idiot resistant.
It is difficult to make a system foolproof because fools are so
ingenious.
I love testing a new system with a totally naive user.
It always amazes me to watch the kind of inputs they
manage to come up with - stuff I could never imagine.
Discovered - with systems/apps that involve a lot
of user input, nearly HALF of your code will be
dedicated to how MANY ways they can fuck it up and
what to DO about it :-)
And if you do manage to make your input routines bombproof,
you'll be met with howls of anguish from users who couldn't
enter data correctly to save their lives. Here's a
real-life example:
User: The system won't accept my input!
Tech: Of course not. You're trying to have it
receive a shipment that hasn't been sent yet.
What are we supposed to do with that?
User: Well... just process it!
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:50:58 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote in <MZOdnWbqhIRz_CH7nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
On 8/13/24 10:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:ww/
On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...
On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped >>>>>> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management >>>>>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that
deliberately cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their
technological choices are more likely to come a cropper in the
marketplace. Either they go out of business, or they get acquired by >>>>> some more successful company.
Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased
out of the economic gene pool.
Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.
https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-
M$, and it's lawyers & suckers, have entirely different ideas - they
WILL press, hard, for M$ dominance.
Technical superiority won't COUNT in most situations. M$ is - by
effort/propaganda - THE de-facto standard. Doesn't matter how much it
sucks.
This is the REALITY.
In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux - so we'd better have a good
REPLACEMENT. Just sayin'
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is a
Linux subsystem in Windows now.
Which is reasonable, considering that Linux dominates
everywhere else _except_ the (shrinking) desktop market.
"Can't we all just get along?"
The M$ lawyers will make SURE we can't all get along ...
SO ... just sayin' ... time to get working on the Linux replacement
FAST ...
Umm ... but consider the sheer VOLUME of M$ shit in use out there ...
On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 03:42:02 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/13/24 5:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:31:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
worth it.
Given that LibreOffice does it all, and is available for less cost and
with fewer restrictions, the answer has to be no
I'll have to get further into it ... but meanwhile I will not just
assume "LibreOffice Does It All".
NO need to assume, just look at the actual database features available.
LOOKING for a semi-decent MULTI-VALUE DB that doesn't involve license
restrictions though. I've loved MV since PICK-OS. Have tried to write
my own, but Mr. Pick apparently had a lot more energy/focus than I
have. Many of those 50s/60s software engineers really earned the
title - GREAT stuff.
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 23:30:24 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
LOOKING for a semi-decent MULTI-VALUE DB that doesn't involve license
restrictions though. I've loved MV since PICK-OS. Have tried to write
my own, but Mr. Pick apparently had a lot more energy/focus than I
have. Many of those 50s/60s software engineers really earned the
title - GREAT stuff.
ScarletDME? It's a GPL 2.0 fork of OpenQM.
But - without Winders license - it'd probably knock
thirty or forty bucks off the price easy. Why don't
they sell THOSE ?
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 00:22:20 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The M$ lawyers will make SURE we can't all get along ...
SO ... just sayin' ... time to get working on the Linux replacement
FAST ...
They tried that already, and failed. Threw everything (legal, economic, marketing FUD) at it, and Linux survived.
And now, Microsoft is tying its own destiny more and more to the well-
being of Linux. So it can no longer afford to be predatory as before,
anyway.
I am looking forward to the day when Windows is just another GUI module
for Linux (like Gnome, KDE etc). We may get there in about 5 years?
Linux is doing well in the server world, but the desktop will be a
much harder sell.
On Sun, 8/18/2024 2:44 AM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 8/16/2024 9:14 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But - without Winders license - it'd probably knock
thirty or forty bucks off the price easy. Why don't
they sell THOSE ?
I bet that MS is still doing what they did decades ago: The box builders
get a huge discount - say 75% - on the cost of their Windows licenses,
PROVIDED that they put Windows on ALL the boxes they sell.
There is an article about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows
You can find sellers who don't put Windows on the hard drive.
When I bought an OEM machine at Eurocom (Eurocom branded,
Clevo is the ODM), Windows was not on the hard drive.
As a build to order, there is a tick box on the form for Windows,
and it is boxed Windows, not Royalty OEM Windows. Eurocom
does not put a SLIC in the BIOS, because the Windows used
has a COA sticker.
You can also build your own computer. You'll need a couple
screwdrivers, a small Philips for some of the screws, a
larger Philips for some of the others. An after-market CPU
air cooler, even has a screwdriver in the box (I like those
screwdrivers). Your hard drive, when you get it, has no OS
on it.
Paul
On 8/16/2024 9:14 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
But - without Winders license - it'd probably knock
thirty or forty bucks off the price easy. Why don't
they sell THOSE ?
I bet that MS is still doing what they did decades ago: The box builders get a huge discount - say 75% - on the cost of their Windows licenses, PROVIDED that they put Windows on ALL the boxes they sell.
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
Linux is doing well in the server world, but the desktop will be a
much harder sell.
For God's sake, not so loud! Keep it down!
My desktop knew nothing but UNIX for 10 years, then has known nothing but Linux for 20 years after that.
It would have a mental breakdown if it found out there were other operating systems out there in the world.
Jack
You can also build your own computer. You'll need a couple screwdrivers,
a small Philips for some of the screws, a larger Philips for some of the others. An after-market CPU air cooler, even has a screwdriver in the
box (I like those screwdrivers). Your hard drive, when you get it, has
no OS on it.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 05:28:23 -0400, Paul wrote:
You can also build your own computer. You'll need a couple screwdrivers,
a small Philips for some of the screws, a larger Philips for some of the
others. An after-market CPU air cooler, even has a screwdriver in the
box (I like those screwdrivers). Your hard drive, when you get it, has
no OS on it.
You left out the fun part... Which processor? Which mobo out of many offerings? Which form factor? Which RAM? Which SSD? Which case and power supply?
I used to do that but the thrill wore off. Now I get a box with Windows on
it and select 'erase everything' on the Linux installation menu. Unless
you have specific needs it's usually cheaper in the long run.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 05:28:23 -0400, Paul wrote:
You can also build your own computer. You'll need a couple screwdrivers,
a small Philips for some of the screws, a larger Philips for some of the
others. An after-market CPU air cooler, even has a screwdriver in the
box (I like those screwdrivers). Your hard drive, when you get it, has
no OS on it.
You left out the fun part... Which processor? Which mobo out of many offerings? Which form factor? Which RAM? Which SSD? Which case and power supply?
I used to do that but the thrill wore off. Now I get a box with Windows on
it and select 'erase everything' on the Linux installation menu. Unless
you have specific needs it's usually cheaper in the long run.
In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 05:28:23 -0400, Paul wrote:
You can also build your own computer. You'll need a couple screwdrivers, >>> a small Philips for some of the screws, a larger Philips for some of the >>> others. An after-market CPU air cooler, even has a screwdriver in the
box (I like those screwdrivers). Your hard drive, when you get it, has
no OS on it.
You left out the fun part... Which processor? Which mobo out of many
offerings? Which form factor? Which RAM? Which SSD? Which case and power
supply?
I used to do that but the thrill wore off. Now I get a box with Windows on >> it and select 'erase everything' on the Linux installation menu. Unless
you have specific needs it's usually cheaper in the long run.
Sites like pc part picker take the guesswork out of picking parts. And you can try alternatives depending on what's in stock where you live.
https://au.pcpartpicker.com/
The video card selected for the budget build, is an RX 6600 for $180
(that's slightly below the junk card price range). I'm not sure any of
those cards are available in town (Best Buy stocks $500-$700 cards,
my real computer store chain is run by a kook so you can never rely on
any stock being in the store or their warehouse).
There's a lot of reading to do.
You can't rush a job like this.
If you have a delivery date to meet, I recommend one month of lead time.
Some people show up with "I need this shizzit in two days".
Well, no you don't.
And I guarantee, you will learn stuff along the way
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 00:22:20 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The M$ lawyers will make SURE we can't all get along ...
SO ... just sayin' ... time to get working on the Linux replacement
FAST ...
They tried that already, and failed. Threw everything (legal, economic, marketing FUD) at it, and Linux survived.
And now, Microsoft is tying its own destiny more and more to the well-
being of Linux. So it can no longer afford to be predatory as before,
anyway.
On 18/08/2024 07:46, Lars Poulsen wrote:
I am looking forward to the day when Windows is just another GUI
module for Linux (like Gnome, KDE etc). We may get there in about 5
years?
X windows, Wayland, or Classic Windows sir?
Its getting to the stage where emulating all or part of Windows on linux would actually be quicker than running it native.
I remember an (apociryphal?) take about Gary Kildall, who in a summer vacation job was tasked with fixing a bug in megabytes of assembler.
He rewrote it in FORTRAN fixed the bug and it ran 5 times faster...
Assembler CAN be faster, but you have to write good tight assembler.
Some micro-controller experience helps with that. When RAM/storage is
oft measured in BYTES you've gotta do clever work.
You can find sellers who don't put Windows on the hard drive.
On 8/17/24 3:24 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 00:22:20 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The M$ lawyers will make SURE we can't all get along ...
SO ... just sayin' ... time to get working on the Linux replacement
FAST ...
They tried that already, and failed. Threw everything (legal, economic,
marketing FUD) at it, and Linux survived.
But Linux=Linus=Linux ... and he's not so young anymore
candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> writes:
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
anybody”.
Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
But will 676 drives really be enough?
Jack
On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 04:15:09 -0400, Paul wrote:
There is a mechanism. Mount points.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/assign-a-mount-point-folder-path-to-a-drive
Windows Server only?
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 361 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 123:28:56 |
| Calls: | 7,716 |
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| Messages: | 5,727,956 |
