XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 2024-05-31 14:20, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

Got any proof that document was created by the NSA?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 31 May 2024 17:20:11 -0400, Larry Wolff <larrywolff@larrywolff.net> wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA >recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to >protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop >on and collect data from phones. >https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

(using Tor Browser 13.0.15) https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

National Security Agency | Mobile Device Best Practices
Threats to mobile devices are more prevalent and increasing in scope and complexity.
Users of mobile devices desire to take full advantage of the features available on
those devices, but many of the features provide convenience and capability but >sacrifice security. This best practices guide outlines steps the users can take to
better protect personal devices and information....

[end quoted excerpt]

credit to "documentcloud.org" for being tor-friendly and 2-page article
appears to be well-written and formatted . . . whodathunk alphabet soup
to engage in (what appears to be) unbiased and helpful public discourse?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/05/31/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/?sh=6b10c53e7c75

"Users can mitigate the threat of spear-phishing, which can lead
to the installation of yet more malware and spyware, by the same
simple action. However, the NSA document does warn that the
turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent
these attacks from being successful.
"

I wasn't feeling very safe today, but now, after a few simple
ritual sacrifices, everything is OK again.

I'm glad this was explained so ordinary users can follow the logic.

I thought we only went "spear-phishing" on dive trip.

*******

For those users at home, wishing to ritual sacrifice, the steps are:

1) Select "Shutdown" from the power menu in your OS.
2) When the fans stop, switch off at the back. If the machine
has no switch, you could unplug the power cable leading to the
ATX supply.
3) Wait at least 60 seconds (inrush limiter cools off etc...) .
4) Plug in, turn on power switch at the back.
5) Push the button on the front and do a normal bootup sequence
like you do every morning or whatever.

Have the evil spirits left the room ?

I would need a psi meter to check.

Maybe a little cleansing with DISM and SFC would help.
Or a Repair Install. I did a Repair Install on my laptop yesterday,
and as a bonus, the thing put my WinRE on the wrong partition :-)
(I had to hunt around to verify that, as I couldn't believe what
I was seeing, but it really was on the wrong partition.)
Then 5034441 installed itself without a fuss (still on the wrong partition
of course). It ignored the partition I provided for it.

That's proof I enjoy a ritual just as much as the next user.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

On 2024-05-31 23:27:42 +0000, Paul said:

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to >> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop >> on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/05/31/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/?sh=6b10c53e7c75

"Users can mitigate the threat of spear-phishing, which can lead
to the installation of yet more malware and spyware, by the same
simple action. However, the NSA document does warn that the
turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent
these attacks from being successful.
"

Oh dear ... more utter bollocks from the looney conspiracy nutter trolls. :-\

I wasn't feeling very safe today, but now, after a few simple
ritual sacrifices, everything is OK again.

I'm glad this was explained so ordinary users can follow the logic.

I thought we only went "spear-phishing" on dive trip.

*******

For those users at home, wishing to ritual sacrifice, the steps are:

1) Select "Shutdown" from the power menu in your OS.
2) When the fans stop, switch off at the back. If the machine
has no switch, you could unplug the power cable leading to the
ATX supply.
3) Wait at least 60 seconds (inrush limiter cools off etc...) .
4) Plug in, turn on power switch at the back.
5) Push the button on the front and do a normal bootup sequence
like you do every morning or whatever.

If you're booting your device every morning, there's no need to follow
this supposed "advice" anyway.

Have the evil spirits left the room ?

I would need a psi meter to check.

Maybe a little cleansing with DISM and SFC would help.
Or a Repair Install. I did a Repair Install on my laptop yesterday,
and as a bonus, the thing put my WinRE on the wrong partition :-)
(I had to hunt around to verify that, as I couldn't believe what
I was seeing, but it really was on the wrong partition.)
Then 5034441 installed itself without a fuss (still on the wrong partition
of course). It ignored the partition I provided for it.

That's proof I enjoy a ritual just as much as the next user.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> writes:

On 2024-05-31 14:20, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to >> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop >> on and collect data from phones.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

Got any proof that document was created by the NSA?

Whether it is or not from NSA, it is good advice I think, as when you
reboot the phone only authorised apps are permitted to run so any
malicious background tasks which have managed to sneak in will be
removed. Also it will clear cached data.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

Interesting link. You're concerned about security, yet you're spreading
a link that goes to pure, indecipherable javascript. That link could be
doing anything. You could have protected people from that risk. The
actual PDF is here:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf

And PDFs should be read with a PDF viewer that either can't handle
script (like Sumatra) or with script clearly disabled. As Alan pointed
out, there's
really no clear indication of who posted this. It could be an attack,
via the
webpage, the PDF, or both. The first step for any kind of reasonable
security
is to block javascript online by default and only enable it as necessary.

To put it in perspective, it's like you've left your front door open and called all your neighbors to discuss break-ins in the neighborhood. You're
all going to meet down at the local park. You've all left your front doors open. And you don't see the connection.

On a computer, nearly all vulnerabilities will involve either
javascript or
trickery. The former is executable code attacks. The latter is like when someone convinces you to give them your credit card number under false pretenses.

If the NSA really published that PDF then I suspect it was distributed
to employees who've had extensive training in security. The PDF is nonsense gibberish to the average person. Virtually no one would be willing to follow the recommendations because people who use cellphones use them constantly
for a vast number of conveniences. They never turn them off, care little
about
how many apps are spying on them, and don't want to have to understand it
all. Just as you visited a pure-script webpage without a second thought.

A cellphone is tracking your location constantly when turned on. Google
even makes money on that data. They call it geofencing. A large percentage
of apps -- whether from official stores or not -- will sell your
personal data.
These are not malware. They're free apps that no one wants to pay for. So
the developer gets paid by selling you out. Most other apps are still commercial
and will likely need to collect personal data, as well as perhaps credit
card numbers.
Those databases are hacked a great deal. Just the other day someone was claiming to be selling 1/2 billion personal records from Ticketmaster. I
rarely
use credit cards and normally keep my cellphone turned off unless using it,
yet someone tried to get a credit card in my name last month. They were only stopped because I have my credit frozen.

Long story short, this kind of advice is like what Paul was saying.
It's mostly
meaningless incantations hoping to avoid calamity, but not trying to
understand
the systems. And the systems are becoming increasingly difficult to
understand.

The fact that documentcloud routinely publishes webpages of pure script
is a typical sign of the times. They're asking you to trust them in running software on your computer. They have no defensible reason to do such a
thing.
Their pages should be straight, safe HTML. But most people don't know
the difference. Cellphones are even worse in terms of external entities controlling
what happens on your phone. All devices are gradually becoing kiosk
devices --
where you access services without any control over what runs on the device.

I shut down my computer every night. Why not? Why leave it running for no reason? Because you can't wait 20 seconds for it to boot? If you never turn
off your cellphone then you ARE being tracked like animals who've been
tagged
by busybody biologists. If you use apps then you're compromising privacy
and
possibly security. But even without apps, Google and Apple are among the sleaziest
companies operating. Both spy. Both run their own ad networks that depend
on spying. You're trusting your life to a flim flam man and then wondering whether there's any risk. And you don't know who Google and Apple are
sharing with. The only good part is that both companies are monstrously
greedy and exploitive. They both have good reason to keep their spying to themselves so that they can get paid by entities wanting to run targetted
ads. Cellphone app makers sell your data to data wholesalers. Google and
Apple directly exploit it themselves.

If you really want security, disable script as much as possible. Don't
bank online. Avoid using a credit card online as much as possible, freeze
your credit records. (Look it up. It's not hard to do.) Don't use credit
cards in public machines, like gas station pumps... If your device doesn't
hold exploitable information then you're not likely to be exploited.

If you want to text friends regularly, call an Uber, bank and shop online....
then get used to the fact that security and privacy are out the window. You can't have it both ways. The only people who are going to follow the NSA
advice are NSA employees using an NSA cellphone.... while they live
recklessly
on their own cellphone. That's not meant to be cynical. It's just the facts. Cellphones are all about convenience and services. It's a comprehensive lifestyle. It's all but impossible to do it halfway. Personally I only
use my
cellphone for phonecalls away from home. I don't give out the number.
(I don't even know the number.) I don't normally leave it turned on. But
most people don't even turn off their cellphone overnight. Most people
are using apps constantly. Form ost people their cellpphone is the
cockpit of
their lifestyle. In that context, turning it off briefly once a week is meaningless.
With computers, not turning them off when you won't be using them is simply stupidity and laziness. And turning them off can sometimes make a difference
in terms of software stuck in memory, updates that require a reboot,
etc. For
example, occasionally a program might get its window closed without
being shut
down. If you don't track such things and you never shut down, when will the program be closed? Maybe next Christmas? Maybe when you buy a new computer?
A running computer OS is a dynamic, complex process. It's not like
leaving an
electric clock turned on.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Newyana2 wrote:

That link could be doing anything.

Well, any link can do anything ...

You could have protected people from that risk. The actual PDF is
here:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf

That's just a different link to the same site, I posted a link to the
original file (which could also do anything) but presumably you accept a
DoD website is less likely to do anything "bad" than a .org website?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Alan wrote:

Larry Wolff wrote:

the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on
once every week

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

Got any proof that document was created by the NSA?

Here it is from a .gov site

<https://media.defense.gov/2021/Sep/16/2002855921/-1/-1/0/MOBILE_DEVICE_BEST_PRACTICES_FINAL_V3%20-%20COPY.PDF>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/1/2024 10:37 AM, Newyana2 wrote:

I'd suggest that if you care about security online then you might
want to go into your browser settings and change the default behavior
for PDF files -- set them to be downloaded.

It's in all the major papers so there's no need, really, for the PDF. https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/1/2024 9:24 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

That link could be doing anything.

Well, any link can do anything ...

No, any link cannot do anything. If you disable script there's very
little chance of any kind of risk. If sites don't require script then one doesn't need to enable it. A webpage that's really only script (like
the link posted) requires allowing script to run in order to see the
webpage.

You could have protected people from that risk. The actual PDF is
here:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353/nsa-mobile-device-best-practices.pdf

That's just a different link to the same site

No it isn't. The original link is to the webpage that runs script.
This link is directly to the PDF download. It might look the same
to you if you allow PDFs to open in the browser. That's not a good
idea, as PDFs can embed script.

I posted a link to the
original file (which could also do anything) but presumably you accept a
DoD website is less likely to do anything "bad" than a .org website?

You seem to be confused by allowing PDFs to load as webpages.
There was the original webpage. HTML loading script. There's my direct
link to a PDF. There's your link to a PDF. A webpage and a PDF are not
the same. But they might appear to be the same if you allow PDFs to
load in your browser.

If you download a PDF it's reasonably safe to read in something
like Sumatra that doesn't allow script. The webpage, by contrast, is
loading a complex script. I don't allow PDFs in my browser, but that
webpage is somehow loading it, or loading an HTML facsimile. The link
to download the PDF, however, is a real PDF.

I'd suggest that if you care about security online then you might
want to go into your browser settings and change the default behavior
for PDF files -- set them to be downloaded.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

TmV3eWFuYTIgd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gVGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIGxpbmsgaXMgdG8gdGhlIHdlYnBh Z2UgdGhhdCBydW5zIHNjcmlwdC4NCg0KQW5kIGRpZCB5b3Uga25vdyB0aGF0IHdhcyB3aGF0 IGlzIHdhcyBnb2luZyB0byBkbywgYmVmb3JlIHlvdSBjbGlja2VkIA0KaXQ/ICBObywgYnV0 IHlvdSBjbGlja2VkIGFueXdheS4NCg0KPiBUaGlzIGxpbmsgaXMgZGlyZWN0bHkgdG8gdGhl IFBERiBkb3dubG9hZC4gSXQgbWlnaHQgbG9vayB0aGUgc2FtZQ0KPiB0byB5b3UgaWYgeW91 IGFsbG93IFBERnMgdG8gb3BlbiBpbiB0aGUgYnJvd3Nlci4gVGhhdCdzIG5vdCBhIGdvb2QN Cj4gaWRlYSwgYXMgUERGcyBjYW4gZW1iZWQgc2NyaXB0Lg0KDQpJIGRvIG5vdCBhbGxvdyBQ REZzIHRvIGxvYWQgaW4gdGhlIGJyb3dzZXIuDQoNCj4+IEkgcG9zdGVkIGEgbGluayB0byB0 aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgZmlsZSAod2hpY2ggY291bGQgYWxzbyBkbyBhbnl0aGluZykgDQo+PiBi dXQgcHJlc3VtYWJseSB5b3UgYWNjZXB0IGEgRG9EIHdlYnNpdGUgaXMgbGVzcyBsaWtlbHkg dG8gZG8gYW55dGhpbmcgDQo+PiAiYmFkIiB0aGFuIGEgLm9yZyB3ZWJzaXRlPw0KPiANCj4g IMKgIFlvdSBzZWVtIHRvIGJlIGNvbmZ1c2VkIGJ5IGFsbG93aW5nIFBERnMgdG8gbG9hZCBh cyB3ZWJwYWdlcy4NCg0KWW91IGd1ZXNzZWQgd3JvbmcuDQoNCj4gVGhlcmUgd2FzIHRoZSBv cmlnaW5hbCB3ZWJwYWdlLiBIVE1MIGxvYWRpbmcgc2NyaXB0LiBUaGVyZSdzIG15IGRpcmVj dA0KPiBsaW5rIHRvIGEgUERGLg0KDQpZb3UgdGhpbmsganVzdCBiZWNhdXNlIGEgVVJMIGVu ZHMgaW4gLnBkZiwgdGhlIHdlYnNlcnZlciBpcyBjZXJ0YWluIHRvIA0Kc2VuZCB5b3UgYSBQ REY/DQoNCj4gVGhlcmUncyB5b3VyIGxpbmsgdG8gYSBQREYuIEEgd2VicGFnZSBhbmQgYSBQ REYgYXJlIG5vdA0KPiB0aGUgc2FtZS4gQnV0IHRoZXkgbWlnaHQgYXBwZWFyIHRvIGJlIHRo ZSBzYW1lIGlmIHlvdSBhbGxvdyBQREZzIHRvDQo+IGxvYWQgaW4geW91ciBicm93c2VyLg0K DQpXaGljaCBJIGRvbid0Lg0KDQo=

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/1/2024 11:11 AM, Larry Wolff wrote:

It's in all the major papers so there's no need, really, for the PDF. https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/

And it's useless info. The NSA have come out with recommendations
that no one would implement, very few can understand, and the mainstream
media have provided a useless takeaway: Everyone can now feel like
they've dealt with security if they just turn their cellphone off once a
week.

What has spearphishing got to do with turning off a cellphone? No one
seems to explain that. Spearphishing refers to tricking people, usually
with convincing info, into taking action that puts them at risk. For
example, someone could send me an email that appears to come from
my bank, getting me to log into a malware site and possibly give up
sensitive info. Rebooting a cellphone would have no effect there.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Newyana2 wrote:

Larry Wolff wrote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/

And it's useless info.

Agreed; it's the equivalent of people thinking that because they check
their tyre pressures once a week, they can drive anyhow they like ...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:

Newyana2 wrote:

Larry Wolff wrote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
And it's useless info. > Agreed; it's the equivalent of people
thinking that because they check their > tyre pressures once a week,
they can drive anyhow they like ...

Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."

It's good advice, but it won't safe you from everything, it's a
mitigation, that's what it says in the article.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On Sat, 01 Jun 2024 20:15:37 +0100, Richmond wrote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/06/01/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/
And it's useless info.

Agreed; it's the equivalent of people

thinking that because they check their

tyre pressures once a week,

they can drive anyhow they like ...

Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."

It's good advice, but it won't safe you from everything, it's a
mitigation, that's what it says in the article.

The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable
Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the
bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?

In addition to disallowing you to keep your bluetooth radio off, isn't
Apple and Google not really turning off the phone even when you tell it to
turn off?

With Android 15, for example, the bluetooth radio can't be turned off for
more than one day, and with the latest Pixel phones, they never turn off.

I've heard Apple's doing the same two things, aren't they?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/1/2024 3:15 PM, Richmond wrote:

Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."

Do you know how that's so? I didn't see any version of this news
that explained the claim. Spearphishing has nothing to do with
resident malware. And the rest of the advice is mostly things
that few understand and fewer would do.

I'm all for better security on cellphones, but to my mind this
is just an example of how the mainstream media feeds the public
any old clickbait, but avoids actually printing useful information.
If they did then no one would read their stuff. That's why they're
the *mainstream* media. This case was a perfect example.
Forbes took a half-baked, entirely unexplained graphic from
the NSA -- probably intended for agents -- and reduced it to
"NSA Warns iPhone And Android Users To Turn It Off And On Again".

People read that and, like you, think they've learned how to
protect their phone from attacks with a nearly effortless trick.
It's like the way that privacy articles always tell us to delete
cookies once in awhile. That advice is not wrong, but it misleads
people into thinking they understand the issue when they really
don't.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 18:39:05 +1200, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

On 2024-05-31 23:27:42 +0000, Paul said:

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to >>> protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop >>> on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/05/31/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/?sh=6b10c53e7c75


"Users can mitigate the threat of spear-phishing, which can lead
to the installation of yet more malware and spyware, by the same
simple action. However, the NSA document does warn that the
turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent
these attacks from being successful.
"

Oh dear ... more utter bollocks from the looney conspiracy nutter trolls. :-\

You do know that the NSA does a lot of the US's spying, and they are
also spied upon a lot. Do you think they don't a lot about spying?

Next time you're in Maryland, you can go to the NSA Museum.

I wasn't feeling very safe today, but now, after a few simple
ritual sacrifices, everything is OK again.

I'm glad this was explained so ordinary users can follow the logic.

I thought we only went "spear-phishing" on dive trip.

*******

For those users at home, wishing to ritual sacrifice, the steps are:

1) Select "Shutdown" from the power menu in your OS.
2) When the fans stop, switch off at the back. If the machine
has no switch, you could unplug the power cable leading to the
ATX supply.
3) Wait at least 60 seconds (inrush limiter cools off etc...) .
4) Plug in, turn on power switch at the back.
5) Push the button on the front and do a normal bootup sequence
like you do every morning or whatever.

If you're booting your device every morning, there's no need to follow
this supposed "advice" anyway.

Have the evil spirits left the room ?

I would need a psi meter to check.

Maybe a little cleansing with DISM and SFC would help.
Or a Repair Install. I did a Repair Install on my laptop yesterday,
and as a bonus, the thing put my WinRE on the wrong partition :-)
(I had to hunt around to verify that, as I couldn't believe what
I was seeing, but it really was on the wrong partition.)
Then 5034441 installed itself without a fuss (still on the wrong partition >> of course). It ignored the partition I provided for it.

That's proof I enjoy a ritual just as much as the next user.

Paul

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:18:49 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

Alan wrote:

Larry Wolff wrote:

the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on
once every week

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

Got any proof that document was created by the NSA?

Here it is from a .gov site

<https://media.defense.gov/2021/Sep/16/2002855921/-1/-1/0/MOBILE_DEVICE_BEST_PRACTICES_FINAL_V3%20-%20COPY.PDF>

very intesting. Especially:

Unexpected pop-ups like [the one shown] are
usually malicious. If one appears,
forcibly close all applications
(i.e., iPhone�2: double tap the
Home button* or Android�3:
click �recent apps� soft key

I guess Android�3 is from long ago, but perhaps it's still true, that
tapping the �recent apps� soft key will close all applications!!! ?????

And the �recent apps� soft key is the square symbol at the bottom, is
that right?

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Am 02.06.24 um 06:03 schrieb micky:

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 18:39:05 +1200, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

On 2024-05-31 23:27:42 +0000, Paul said:

On 5/31/2024 5:20 PM, Larry Wolff wrote:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA
recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to
protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop
on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices

Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2024/05/31/nsa-warns-iphone--android-users-to-turn-it-off-and-on-again/?sh=6b10c53e7c75


"Users can mitigate the threat of spear-phishing, which can lead
to the installation of yet more malware and spyware, by the same
simple action. However, the NSA document does warn that the
turn it off and on again advice will only sometimes prevent
these attacks from being successful.
"

Oh dear ... more utter bollocks from the looney conspiracy nutter trolls. :-\

You do know that the NSA does a lot of the US's spying, and they are
also spied upon a lot. Do you think they don't a lot about spying?

Next time you're in Maryland, you can go to the NSA Museum.

My goodness! You are naive!

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

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bWlja3kgd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gSSBndWVzcyAgQW5kcm9pZMKuMyBpcyBmcm9tIGxvbmcgYWdv LCBidXQgcGVyaGFwcyBpdCdzIHN0aWxsIHRydWUsIHRoYXQNCj4gdGFwcGluZyB0aGUg4oCc cmVjZW50IGFwcHPigJ0gc29mdCBrZXkgd2lsbCBjbG9zZSBhbGwgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zISEh ICA/Pz8/Pw0KPiANCj4gQW5kIHRoZSDigJxyZWNlbnQgYXBwc+KAnSBzb2Z0IGtleSAgaXMg dGhlIHNxdWFyZSBzeW1ib2wgYXQgdGhlIGJvdHRvbSwgaXMNCj4gdGhhdCByaWdodD8NCg0K SSB0aGluayB0aGUgaW50ZW50aW9uIGlzIHRvIGdldCB5b3UgYXdheSBmcm9tIHdoYXRldmVy IGFwcCBpcyBkaXNwbGF5aW5nIA0KdGhlIHBvcC11cC4NCg0KQmFjayB0aGVuLCBtYW55IHBo b25lcyBzdGlsbCBoYWQgcGh5c2ljYWwgYXJlYXMgZGVkaWNhdGVkIHRvIA0KdHJpYW5nbGU9 YmFjay9jaXJjbGU9aG9tZS9zcXVhcmU9YXBwLXN3aXRjaGVyDQoNCk5vdyB0aGV5J3ZlIGVp dGhlciBiZWVuIHJlcGxhY2VkIHdpdGggc29mdCBhcmVhcywgb3IgcmVtb3ZlZCBhbHRvZ2V0 aGVyIA0KaW4gZmF2b3VyIG9mIGdlc3R1cmVzLg0K

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Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> writes:

On 6/1/2024 3:15 PM, Richmond wrote:

Why would anyone think that? The news article says "However, the NSA
document does warn that the turn it off and on again advice will only
sometimes prevent these attacks from being successful."

Do you know how that's so? I didn't see any version of this news
that explained the claim. Spearphishing has nothing to do with
resident malware. And the rest of the advice is mostly things
that few understand and fewer would do.

I can only speculate, a spear fishing attack could take you to a
malicious website, which then inserts malware via a vulnerability in
your browser. This malware could remain in memory until you reboot.

I'm all for better security on cellphones, but to my mind this
is just an example of how the mainstream media feeds the public
any old clickbait, but avoids actually printing useful information.
If they did then no one would read their stuff. That's why they're
the *mainstream* media. This case was a perfect example.
Forbes took a half-baked, entirely unexplained graphic from
the NSA -- probably intended for agents -- and reduced it to
"NSA Warns iPhone And Android Users To Turn It Off And On Again".

People read that and, like you, think they've learned how to
protect their phone from attacks with a nearly effortless trick.

No, not like me. I didn't learn anything from the article. I reboot my
phone from time to time anyway because I already knew it is a good idea.

It's like the way that privacy articles always tell us to delete
cookies once in awhile. That advice is not wrong, but it misleads
people into thinking they understand the issue when they really
don't.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/2/2024 1:37 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

The news article says "The NSA also advises Phone users to disable
Bluetooth when not using it" but isn't Google and Apple keeping the
bluetooth radio permanently on because they want to sell trackers?

Why would a radio be bluetooth?� Does anyone actually use separate
radios now?� And if they did, why would they want it to play through
their phone?� Or is it the radio on the phone playing through bluetooth speakers?

I think Peter just means bluetooth functionality:

https://www.androidpolice.com/android-15-auto-enable-bluetooth/

There was talk at one point of stores even using bluetooth beacons
to track shoppers, allowing them to assess what products people
look at on shelves and whether or not they buy a product that they
look at.

https://themarkup.org/privacy/2023/02/16/forget-milk-and-eggs-supermarkets-are-having-a-fire-sale-on-data-about-you

So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location
data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta. Perhaps they
can even send you a youtube video in real time with a recipe for
lasagna. This stuff strains the imagination's capacity. Even the Jason
Bourne movies have become outdated. (But I sure would love to
see a Bourne 2024 sequel. "Boss, sensors in a convenience store just
picked up Bourne's pheromones, and an undocumented cellphone in
the same store is calling Sacramento." "OK, let's get teams to both
locations in 5 minutes.")

I don't know why the NSA cares about bluetooth. Presumably
bluetooth transmissions can be hacked somehow, perhaps getting the
transmission or even hacking into the cellphone through a
man-in-the-middle style hack. Or maybe the microphone can be
accessed to listen in to someone talking nearby. But I don't know
whether such things are actually possible.

It's surprising to me how much people who live by cellphone still
don't understand that all this is going on. I go into Whole Foods
and see nearly every customer flash their Amazon Prime ID from
their cellphone. They think they're clever because they just got 10%
off on scallops that WF marked up 20% in order to provide a Prime
discount. It's all about convenience. People are always surprised or
even incredulous when they hear about they spying. They're focused
only on convenience. And also an irrational fear of cash. Younger
people especially seem to actually fear cash. I've come to feel like
a swaggering Marlon Brando character when I pull out my pile of
bills.... I suppose these are the people who grew up wearing a helmet
for supervised tricycle riding. They feel in danger when some external authority is not running their life. Cash is just too "unofficial" to allow into one's life. Anything could happen!

A good example of the gap in understanding is the man who was
arrested for murdering 4 college students
in Idaho. The police got his phone data, showing that he drove by the
house a number of times and sometimes parked outside. He also turned
off his cellphone for an hour at the time of the murders. So the man
understood enough to know that his location could be tracked if his
cellphone were turned on, but he didn't actually grok how extensive
the surveillance is. (Last I heard he was claiming that he has insomnia
and often went out for long drives at night.) *He never actually
understood that by carrying a cellphone turned on he was being
constantly monitored.* Few people do understand that. They think
it's tinfoil hat talk.

So it's not hard to imagine that all those vulnerabilities might be
accessed by criminal elements or foreign spies. With all the people
shopping and banking on cellphones, looking for ways to hack in
becomes the 21st century version of a treasure map... I'm beginning
to think that's how the world will end. Not meteors or nuclear war.
Instead, some group of anarchist psychos will hack the world's computer networks. From there they'll be able to change everyone's
bank balance every 15 minutes, void your identity, create endless
fake identities, erase trucking and shipping computers... We'd all
be murdered, starve to death, or be run over by driverless taxis within
days... Millennials and GenZers will simply die of exposure to reality
and lack of therapy appointments, within 2 weeks of their cellphones malfunctioning. Our only hope will be Jason Bourne. :)

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Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

So, Google and Apple are tracking location. Google is also buying
credit card data and cooperating with stores to know when you're
actually within a store's building. Apps are spying and selling location data. Bluetooth, then, is just adding finer data to the mix. Now they
know you're in the produce aisle or looking at pasta.

You understand the problem but most people don't even know that bluetooth
is radio-frequency emissions - which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

We already had Google enforcing "precise location" tracking with last
summer's secret and undeniable update of Google Maps, which turns on a
whole bunch of tracking settings that most people don't even know exist.

And now, with Android 15, Google is apparently planning to keep up the
tracking by not allowing you to turn off your bluetooth radio for long.

Even worse perhaps, is you can no longer completely power down a phone.

Both Google's and Apple's latest phones don't allow you to turn them off
for real. The iPhones and the latest Pixels are still running Google's and Apple's tracking activities even when you think you've turned them off.

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On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 22:37:15 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

Why would a radio be bluetooth?

There are probably five to ten different radios on any given smartphone.

Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz to 300 GHz. The lower the frequency the longer the range. However, the lower the frequency the lower the data rate
it can support. As a result, selecting a radio spectrum comes with
tradeoffs between range and data rate.

Bluetooth technology uses the 2.4 GHz ISM spectrum band (2400 to 2483.5
MHz), which enables a good balance between range and throughput. In
addition, the 2.4 GHz band is available worldwide, making it a true
standard for low-power wireless connectivity.

https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/key-attributes/range/

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On 2024-06-02 14:00, Peter wrote:

which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

Can you cite a reliable source for this?


--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

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Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:

which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off.

Can you cite a reliable source for this?

Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.

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On 2024-06-02 13:41, Bill Powell wrote:

Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz

ELF says "hold my beer". It says it quite slowly, mind.

--
Fore Score and Seven Years ago our Four Fathers fought a lot.
- some guy on the Internet in the 1860's

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On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 15:18:20 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz

ELF says "hold my beer". It says it quite slowly, mind.

The question from "The Real Bev" was "Why would a radio be bluetooth?"
where since bluetooth, at 2.4GHz, is smack in the middle of the radio range logarithm of 30 Hz to 300GHz, that question from "The Real Bev" should be reversed as in "Why would bluetooth be a radio".

My answer was that there are many radio-frequency radios in a smartphone.

Unwanted Apple & Google tracking of people's activities by bluetooth is
just one of the ways both companies log and track much of what people do.

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On 6/1/2024 8:56 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

So since I always turn my phone and computer off (along with the lights,
TV, radio...) when I go to bed I should be safe, right?

You may think you're turning your phone off at night but in many phones, particularly Apple phones and the latest Google phones, it's never off.

https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+phones+are+always+tracking+you https://www.google.com/search?q=android+phones+are+always+tracking+you

But the operative word here is "reboot" - which is what the NSA means.

The goal is to wipe clean resident memory, I think, but people on this
group list who understand the process better can help you more than me.

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Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:28 +0100 :

I think the intention is to get you away from whatever app is displaying
the pop-up.

Back then, many phones still had physical areas dedicated to triangle=back/circle=home/square=app-switcher

Now they've either been replaced with soft areas, or removed altogether
in favour of gestures.

More and more, I find that obnoxious apps don't provide the bottom triangle/circle/square which bother me as they at the same time don't
supply any quit/exit/back button within the displayed app activity.

I don't agree with "gestures" so I never studied them, and as a result of
my ignorance of gestures, I end up swiping about (almost willy nilly) until
the bottom triangle/circle/square returns.

It would be nice if there's an app to force the triangle/circle/square to
stay put in all activities. Do you think that's even possible to set up?

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On 6/2/24 15:45, Andrew wrote:

Andy Burns wrote on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:28 +0100 :

I think the intention is to get you away from whatever app is displaying
the pop-up.

Back then, many phones still had physical areas dedicated to
triangle=back/circle=home/square=app-switcher

Now they've either been replaced with soft areas, or removed altogether
in favour of gestures.

More and more, I find that obnoxious apps don't provide the bottom triangle/circle/square which bother me as they at the same time don't
supply any quit/exit/back button within the displayed app activity.

I don't agree with "gestures" so I never studied them, and as a result of
my ignorance of gestures, I end up swiping about (almost willy nilly) until the bottom triangle/circle/square returns.

It would be nice if there's an app to force the triangle/circle/square to stay put in all activities. Do you think that's even possible to set up?

The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK, I see a COMMAND PARAGRAPH on every page that shows all possible NAV and such buttons
with precise and crisp control, feel, and feedback and NOTHING left to
the still much too typical swamp-mushy "no one really knows". These
should include ALL possible reactions to the page material with nothing
left to yet another interminable series of hoops. Unavailable icons
should be ghosted instead of missing because another thing that sucks
like a non-binary Electorlux is dynamic menus. Page spatial awareness is seamless when catered to with fixed reference points, else it's a royal
PITA.

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bad sector wrote:

The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]

[...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.

I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see square/circle/triangle again ...

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On 6/2/24 17:39, Andy Burns wrote:

bad sector wrote:

The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]

[...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.

I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see square/circle/triangle again ...

I just don't have the time!!! To tell you the truth there's very little
that I like about my (1st) 'smart' phone. Had a plain-Jane flipper
before it and that one couldn't even texto. Unless the providers stop
catering to that early type on a pro-rata basis I would not be surprised
if I dump 'smart' altogether and return to one of them. No dexterity
issues, but I do hate the entire industry with extreme prejudice on
account of the insane hand-held non-desktop whorehouse beginning to
pollute the thinking even on real desktops like KDE and XFCE.

That said, and to stay on topic, I think the NSA is absolutely right, I
would edit shutdown to a full reset+tweakathon once a month, one
beneficial byproduct being knowing by heart what there is, what you
want, and what takes a freakin' hike. The negative effects of not
resetting or at least shutting down frequently will probably visit the
europid herds first; chinese (hint) phone sales there rose 50-70% last
year VS. Apple/Samsung continuing to slide.

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On 2024-06-02 21:39:39 +0000, Andy Burns said:

bad sector wrote:

The art/science is still relatively new, gestures SUCK [...]

[...] until you get used them after which, gestures RULE.

I do realise there are people with e.g. dexterity issues where gestures
may not be the answer, but have you given them a *serious* go for a few
days, they just become 2nd nature and you'll never want to see square/circle/triangle again ...

Wishy-washy "gestures" with zero visual guidance are incredibly silly
and user-UNfriendly. An actual button (whether physical or on-screen)
that you can see will always be a far far better method.

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On 6/2/2024 3:24 PM, Peter wrote:

Alan Browne <singularity@blackhole.org> wrote:

which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off. >>

Can you cite a reliable source for this?

Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.

I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
cigarette case.

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In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 2 Jun 2024 19:41:50 +0200, Bill Powell <bill@anarchists.org> wrote:

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 22:37:15 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

Why would a radio be bluetooth?

There are probably five to ten different radios on any given smartphone.

I'm sure I've seen articles that refer to all the transmitters in the
phone as radios. (bluetooth, wifi, data, probably voice too although
the articles were about turning off all the radios except maybe that
one.)

Radio spectrum stretches from 30 Hz to 300 GHz. The lower the frequency the >longer the range. However, the lower the frequency the lower the data rate
it can support. As a result, selecting a radio spectrum comes with
tradeoffs between range and data rate.

Bluetooth technology uses the 2.4 GHz ISM spectrum band (2400 to 2483.5
MHz), which enables a good balance between range and throughput. In
addition, the 2.4 GHz band is available worldwide, making it a true
standard for low-power wireless connectivity.

https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/key-attributes/range/

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Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

which Google & Apple both have a vested
interest in making easily trackable by not allowing you to keep them off. >>>

Can you cite a reliable source for this?

Not only is it well known information, but there were already reliable
sources previously cited in this very thread by Newyana2, which you
shouldn't be asking me to repeat just because you didn't bother to look.

I think that's a reasonable question. I can turn off my
Android cellphone, and I do. If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical. Not that I don't believe it, but
I'd like to know the facts one way or the other. If that's really
the case then I suppose the only way to stop tracking
would be too keep the phone in something like a metal
cigarette case.

There are two issues that are moving in the wrong direction for privacy
which we have to take separately, but which both Apple & Google benefit
from by not allowing you to be safe from their tracking activities.

1. The phones still track even when you think you've turned them off.
2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

You already gave a cite and others did too for the bluetooth issue.
The cite for the phones never turning off is in another recent thread.

Google's "Find My Debvice Network" by Stan Brown (4 days ago) https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/5eS53TT8/google-s-find-my-debvice-network

One relevant post with a cite showing the phones never turn off being this.

"thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners
will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off
or the battery is dead"
<https://blog.google/products/android/android-find-my-device/>

In that same thread is another cite about bluetooth turning back on.

"Android 15 will add a new feature that can automatically turn
on Bluetooth the day after you've disabled it.
Your phone's Bluetooth radio is used for several key Android features,
such as Quick Share and Find My Device.
Disabling Bluetooth will slightly improve battery, but the trade-off
is that your device won't be able to contribute to Google's Find My
Device network."
<https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-bluetooth-auto-on-3431445/>

There is a good argument that they're doing this because they make a lot of money tracking you, even if you try to turn off bluetooth & even then, if
you try to turn off the phone - they still want to be able to track you.

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Newyana2 wrote:

If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical.

To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of
the phone is definitely off.

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Your Name wrote:

Wishy-washy "gestures" with zero visual guidance are incredibly silly
and user-UNfriendly. An actual button (whether physical or on-screen)
that you can see will always be a far far better method.

Depends on the device, I won't be buying a car that requires use of a
touch screen, let alone gestures, give me physical buttons.

But for a phone/tablet that is handheld, and already uses a touch
screen, I have no problems with gestures.

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Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 08:34:21 +0100 :

Chris wrote:

Peter wrote:

2. The bluetooth radios turn back on despite you turning them off.

Not true on ios. You can turn it off permanently.

The auto turning back on is only present in Android 15, which isn't out
of beta yet, things could change.

If people want to disable these new features, that's fine, but it should prevent them from benefitting from the new features. If you don't want
to contribute to the findmydevice network that's OK, but don't expect to
be able to use the findmydevice network when/if you lose your own phone ...

I realize most people do exactly what marketing tells them to do, like
sheep led to slaughter - but for the few people who are intelligent, this comment below will resonate (but it will NOT resonate with the morons).

A phone is a commodity, which most of us get for free or for extremely low costs (e.g., T-Mobile gave everyone in the USA on their postpaid plan a
free phone who wanted it - see my note below copied in the sig proving it).

If we lose it, big deal. We lose a free phone. There's no real loss there.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

All personal data that is of security implications (e.g., financial
information and password information) is in encrypted containers) so
there's no loss there given the sd card is backed up frequently to the PC.

We don't even lose our apps or our data since it's trivial to backup &
restore where even the EXACT location in our folders is replicated to the
new phone, as are all the EXACT apps and the EXACT versions of those apps
(even if those versions are no longer available in the respective repos).

My point is that losing the phone is nothing. It's not even inconvenient. There's no loss of data. There's not even a cost to replace it.

But losing your privacy by being tracked every moment of the day is a big
loss, and that is what happens with the bluetooth tracking of Google/Apple.
--
Bearing in mind that Android updates in discrete layers; not as a monolith. <https://source.android.com/static/docs/core/architecture/images/modular_system_components_arch.png>

Today I received yet another update which updated my Galaxy A32-5G to
*Security Patch Level: May 1, 2024*
<https://i.postimg.cc/dtjXVrTY/update.jpg>

History:
The US Samsung Galaxy A32-5G debuted in January of 2021.

I received a handful for free in April of 2021 one of which is the one I
use most, which was twice replaced for free as I mess with phones a lot.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YC1B906F/tmopromo01.jpg>

It came with Android 11 but it was updated to 12 and then to Android 13.
I'm not sure if it's updatable to Android 14 though (how would I know?).

As with all Androids on version 10+ on the net, it's also updated monthly
over the Google Play system update feature (previously called Project Mainline); but that only updates the ~25 core modules in Android 13 that
are updated in Project Mainline. <https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/modular-system>

What kills most of my older phones was the battery, but this five amp hour battery is going so strongly that I don't bother to charge it except when
it's needed (as it goes a couple of days easily without needing charging).

The phone only came with 64GB but with the SD card, it's basically
unlimited (where I store anything I add to the phone on the sd card).

If you received a phone around 3 years ago, how well is it doing for you?

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Andrew wrote:

A phone is a commodity, which most of us get for free or for extremely low costs (e.g., T-Mobile gave everyone in the USA on their postpaid plan a
free phone who wanted it - see my note below copied in the sig proving it).

If we lose it, big deal. We lose a free phone. There's no real loss there.

They may give you a cheap/free phone when it suits them, but if you
lose/break it, will they replace it cheaply when you need it?

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Andrew wrote:

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

If I actively search for a supermarket or petrol station, usually I want results near me, occasionally I'm interested in a remote location and
can let it know.

I'd be more convinced if every time I came with 50 ft of a Starbucks/McDonalds/Wetherspoons, my phone got bombarded with special
offers to lure me in ...

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Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 08:34:21 +0100 :

The auto turning back on is only present in Android 15, which isn't out
of beta yet, things could change.

If people want to disable these new features, that's fine, but it should prevent them from benefitting from the new features. If you don't want
to contribute to the findmydevice network that's OK, but don't expect to
be able to use the findmydevice network when/if you lose your own phone ...

<RANT>

I think the many Android open source developers will likely find a way to
keep the bluetooth radio off in Android 15, but I wanted to respond here specifically to your post saying that "things could change" for the better.

I doubt it.

Google, just last August made "precise location" a requirement, even though Wi-Fi/Bluetooth are both superfluous for GPS positioning, to use many apps.

They did this by modifying the Google system framework APIs, I believe,
which is a set of APIs that many apps incorporate into their APK code.

You'll note that GSF is prevalent in mapping apps more so than many others.
<https://i.postimg.cc/0jkC05C6/gsf.jpg>

I complained about it but one person can't battle Google, as you well know
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

It's not clear if Google is following Apple's lead by lying about
everything except in court, or if Apple is following Google's lead,
but the end result is that Google has been successful in not being sued
(AFAIK) when Google lied about why they made precise location a mandatory requirement, and as a result of Google getting away with that last year,
we're all now stuck with the fact that apps built with the GSF API
therefore also require precise location to be turned on, even if the app
itself has absolutely no need for precise location.

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth
in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.

</RANT>

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Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 10:36:10 +0100 :

If we lose it, big deal. We lose a free phone. There's no real loss there.

They may give you a cheap/free phone when it suits them, but if you lose/break it, will they replace it cheaply when you need it?

All phones are the same. A phone is merely a commodity.
It makes calls, snaps pictures, and runs apps.

They're all the same.
Even so, let's say you lose it.

How much does a good phone cost nowadays?
About $200 to $300, right?

At most.

Yes, you can spend more (and you can spend less) but a phone is a mature commodity, where a $1000 phone doesn't do much a $200/$300 phone can't.

To back up that point, allow me to ask the community at large a question.

Q: What does your expensive phone do that my free/$200 phone does not do?
<https://deviceguides.ee.co.uk/samsung/galaxy-a32-5g-android-11-0/specifications/>
<https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_a32_5g-10648.php>
<https://www.samsung.com/us/smartphones/galaxy-a32-5g/>

Note: I'm expecting stuff like more pixels and more memory and faster CPUs
and a bit more RAM perhaps, etc., but my point is that there isn't going to
be all that much of actual day-to-day import that cheap phones don't do.

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Andy Burns wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 10:45:39 +0100 :

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth >> in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

I appreciate that you're asking good questions, where I think in this very thread we saw an article that Mayayana cited that says yes.

Apple & Google make money off of keeping track of our location.

A. Which, I posit, is why Google made "precise location" almost mandatory.
B. And which, I posit, is why Google is making Bluetooth almost mandatory.

If I actively search for a supermarket or petrol station, usually I want results near me, occasionally I'm interested in a remote location and
can let it know.

I do not understand that sentence, unfortunately.
a. What does the bluetooth radio being on have to do with that search?
b. And besides, you can always search "near" anywhere.

So you don't need "precise location" to run a search.
Nor bluetooth.

Right?

I'd be more convinced if every time I came with 50 ft of a Starbucks/McDonalds/Wetherspoons, my phone got bombarded with special
offers to lure me in ...

It's selling your location that makes the money for them.

Whether or not you get bombarded with the results is how you set up the
phone, as you're well aware, I've never seen an ad on my phone, even though some of the apps I've installed have ads (but my phone is set up right).

Also I have notifications set to judicious levels, so apps don't bombard me with spurious notifications; and I don't use crappy apps either.

My point of the rant is both Google and Apple are making money by tracking
us, where what the rant is about are the lies that claim they're doing it
for our own good (but where they won't let us turn off tracking radios).

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bad sector wrote:

I would edit shutdown to a full reset+tweakathon once a month

My phone gets a security update (and hence restart) every month, also
unused apps lose their privileges.

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On 6/2/2024 10:42 PM, Peter wrote:

Google's "Find My Debvice Network" by Stan Brown (4 days ago) https://comp.mobile.android.narkive.com/5eS53TT8/google-s-find-my-debvice-network

One relevant post with a cite showing the phones never turn off being this.

"thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners
will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off
or the battery is dead"
<https://blog.google/products/android/android-find-my-device/>

That's an interesting one. Thanks. It sounds like it could only
be a self-powered transmitter. Or a long-range RFID tag. The
author doesn't explain. He doesn't even call it a feature or a
hardware gizmo. It's an "experience". Experience seems to have
become the established tech jargon for "product". Microsoft uses
the same jargon.

The tags for items sound like RFID-ish hardware. But RFID is
short-range. I realize now that I have no idea how Apple "cootie
tags" work.

In that same thread is another cite about bluetooth turning back on.

"Android 15 will add a new feature that can automatically turn
on Bluetooth the day after you've disabled it.
Your phone's Bluetooth radio is used for several key Android features,
such as Quick Share and Find My Device.
Disabling Bluetooth will slightly improve battery, but the trade-off
is that your device won't be able to contribute to Google's Find My
Device network."
<https://www.androidauthority.com/android-15-bluetooth-auto-on-3431445/>

That one is vague. It CAN turn back on. You SHOULD be able to disable
it... The author doesn't seem to actually know what he's talking about.
That article seems to explain part of the function, though: Each Android
phone
talking to others and also calling home. But I thought bluetooth had a
short range, like a few feet. Do you happen to know the range of this
function?
If it's bluetooth-only then how do people trace the location of things like stolen power tools kept in storage lockers? (There was an article about
such a case this past week.)

It's certainly very creepy. Though I suspect that most Apple devotees
see it more like the child who likes to be tucked in at night. Holy Lord
Jobs and the Most Saintly Timmy Cook are watching over them. I suppose
that's how authoritarian regimes get established. Whether it's Trump or
Hitler,
they succeed because enough people view them as protectors. So Apple
and Google are facing a dual situation. On the one hand, it's a great spying opportunity. On the other hand, many of their customers actually want this functionality.

It's actually reminiscient of 1984. There's an implication that you
now have
a social duty to be tracked so that your neighbor can find his stolen
bicycle.
"Mr. Smith? We can't see your cellphone, Mr. Smith. Please turn on
monitoring
and be identified."

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On 6/3/2024 2:21 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Newyana2 wrote:

If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical.

To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of
the phone is definitely off.

By which you mean a homing beacon to enable the cootie
tag function? Then again, if there's only a homing beacon
the phones turned off can't function as part of the network
of cootie tag trackers. This has got me curious to look up
how it actually works. The media seem to be specculating as
much as we are.

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Larry Wolff, 2024-05-31 23:20:

In a document detailing several mobile device best practices, the NSA recommends users turn their devices off and then back on once every week to protect against zero-click exploits, which attackers often use to eavesdrop on and collect data from phones.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21018353-nsa-mobile-device-best-practices
Does this advice hold true for PC's also?

Turning the device completely off will kill all running programs
including malware which an attacker managed to start. If the malware
could not install a service which starts automatically, this will
mitigate *some* possible attacks.

However, when you this only once a week, you still give an attacker up
to one week to abuse your device. So I am not sure, if this is really
that useful. Also if there may be security issues which allow malware to
gain root access and then a device reboot won't help you either.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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micky, 2024-06-02 06:00:

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 1 Jun 2024 14:18:49 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

[...]

<https://media.defense.gov/2021/Sep/16/2002855921/-1/-1/0/MOBILE_DEVICE_BEST_PRACTICES_FINAL_V3%20-%20COPY.PDF>

very intesting. Especially:

Unexpected pop-ups like [the one shown] are
usually malicious. If one appears,
forcibly close all applications
(i.e., iPhone®2: double tap the
Home button* or Android®3:
click “recent apps” soft key

I guess Android®3 is from long ago, but perhaps it's still true, that tapping the “recent apps” soft key will close all applications!!! ?????

And the “recent apps” soft key is the square symbol at the bottom, is that right?

Right. However, the document is from October 2020, so not that old. And
it does not refer to "Android 3" but the footnote number 3 below.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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On 6/3/2024 5:45 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Andrew wrote:

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off
bluetooth
in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You need to remember that Google
and Apple are both running their own ad systems. For Google,
spyware and ad middlemanning is essentially their whole business.
Google operates by vast, comprehensive data collection. Apple
operates via spyware combined with control over devices.

Google have deals with credit card companies to know your
purchases. They have deals with stores to track you location
in stores. They track and sell geofencing data to police... Google
maps. GMail. Google analytics on websites. Google fonts. Doorbell
cameras. All of that has one basic purpose, which is to track every
personal detail possible in order to sell that knowledge to people
paying for ad placement; and increasingly selling it to anyone who
will pay.

Remember when Google was caught "slurping" wifi data with their
streetview vans? That gives an indication of just how useful data
is to them. Any data. Even the tiniest fact about you is gold because
it can be instantly added to other data and cross referenced. They're collecting City Hall records, police blotters, media reports, credit
card usage data, your personal movements and actions... whatever
involves digital functionality, Google has their hands on. I wouldn't
be surprised if they're getting data from "smart" devices, from
washing machines to dildoes.

( Don't laugh: https://www.theregister.com/2017/03/13/internet_of_dildos_firm_3_75m_privacy_lawsuit/
)

Google has not been a search engine company for a long time.
Nearly everything they do is free tools and services to enable
tracking, which makes them $10s of billions per quarter. It's really
the ONLY thing they make money from, aside from some money
from commercial map usage and so on. And that's not even getting
into their spyware contracts with others: Retail spying. Spying
in concert with credit card companies. They may do deals with
the likes of Lexis Nexus to use car tracking data. Though they
probably don't need to. Their maps and driving directions are
already tracking a large percentage of people who no longer dare
to drive anywhere without a computer telling them how to do it.
Google also recently contracted with Reddit to rifle through their
posts at will and use them in their own business.

Geofencing:

https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/19/google-geofence-warrants/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/12/11/google-gives-feds-1500-leads-to-arsonist-smartphones-in-unprecedented-geofence-search/

Obviously that would be merely a side hustle compared to ads, but
it all adds up. And it has very real implications beyond ads. The
Cambridge Analytica/Brexit scandal is one example, which a movie
was made about.

Even more brazen was Eric Schmidt's attempt to sell the 2016
presidential election to Hillary Clinton by selling her access to
Google's database:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170110050350/http://www.itwire.com/government-tech-policy/75531-google-s-schmidt-drew-up-draft-plan-for-clinton-in-2014.html

She didn't go for the idea... Because she thought it was dishonest
or because she thought it was too expensive or because she simply
didn't understand Google's power? I don't know. I would suspect the
latter. Schmidt was suggesting a $1.5 billion project. Interestingly,
he had also calculated how they could use low-paid lackeys that
they'd dump like hot potatoes as soon as the campaign was over.
Hardly the strategy of a political liberal:

"Key is the development of a single record for a voter that aggregates
all that is known about them... New tools should be developed to measure
reach and impact of paid, earned and social media. The impact of press
coverage should be measurable in reach and impact, and TV effectiveness measured by attention and other surveys."

"Build tools that measure the rate and spread of stories and rumours,
and model how it works and who has the biggest impact. Tools can tell us
about the origin of stories and the impact of any venue, person or theme."

"Analytics can model demographics, social factors and many other
attributes of the needed voters," he wrote. "It should be possible to
link the voter records in Van (a database) with upcoming databases from companies like Comcast and others for media measurement purposes."

Schmidt was proposing a comprehensive propaganda campaign,
targetted at the level of individuals, to ensure that as many people
as possible were getting Schmidt's engineered misinformation to
turn them toward Clinton. This is not ambiguous. It was an attempt
to short-circuit democracy. Some might say that Trump justified
the effort, but it's still anti-democratic.

Interestingly, Schmidt insisted that all involved must work without
profit. So he was proposing a commercial enterprise, to steal a public election, orchestrated by partisans. A kind of propaganda coup. While
the Brexit scenario was exploiting data to identify and talk to
disillusioned voters, the Google/Schmidt deal would have been a
vast, targetted disinformation campaign.

Part of Schmidt's motive may have been sheer Napoleonic
vanity. But the overall enterprise would have constituted the
ultimate lobbying success -- not only bribing the President but actually selling the election to her, at least in Schmidt's eyes. (And we shouldn't assume that tech will support progressive, humane ideals. Those
billionaires are getting older. When they were young they wanted
social progress. Now they favor tax breaks and deregulation.)

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Andy Burns, 2024-06-03 11:45:

Andrew wrote:

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth >> in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us.

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

Yes. Location based services where already a business model before we
had smartphones.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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On 6/3/2024 2:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Your Name wrote:

Wishy-washy "gestures" with zero visual guidance are incredibly silly
and user-UNfriendly. An actual button (whether physical or on-screen)
that you can see will always be a far far better method.

Depends on the device, I won't be buying a car that requires use of a
touch screen, let alone gestures, give me physical buttons.

But for a phone/tablet that is handheld, and already uses a touch
screen, I have no problems with gestures.

But cars without buttons usually allow verbal commands so one can keep
your eyes on the road.

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Newyana2 wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 09:08:20 -0400 :

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off
bluetooth
in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us. >>

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You need to remember that Google
and Apple are both running their own ad systems. For Google,
spyware and ad middlemanning is essentially their whole business.
Google operates by vast, comprehensive data collection. Apple
operates via spyware combined with control over devices.

Keeping with the main point of the rant, and in accordance with what
Mayayana said above (and which Andy rightfully questioned), there is no
doubt in my mind that the reason Google & Apple are doing this is to make
money off of tracking us...

a. That's why, I posit, they added the mandatory precise location
b. And now, they're adding bluetooth that can't be kept turned off
c. And they've added phones which can't even be fully turned off

My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off.
That's it.

As long as they make it so intelligent people can turn it off, I'm OK.
Let the proletariat masses be led to slaughter by marketing - but not me.

An example of the masses being led to slaughter, but not me... is this:
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-have-3-brand-new-default-on-advertising-switches-recently-inserted-into-your-android-for-brand-new-android-13-targeted-advertising.4639991/>

Another example of the masses led to slaughter, but not me, is this.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/app-6-0-app-finder-the-most-advanced-search-engine-for-android-apps-50-free-plans-here.4578809/post-89024201>

Notice that developers allow us to divorce ourselves from Google and Apple tracking, where in the case of Apple the tracking on app installations is tremendously intrusive since Apple inserts a unique ID that only you have
into every app you install on the iPhone from their app store.

Even if Google tried to do that, they couldn't - but they don't (only Apple tracks every single app IPA you install - Google can't track every APK).

My main point is simply that as long as I can turn the Apple/Google
tracking, I'm fine with that.

It's when they make tracking mandatory (and lie about why) that bothers me.

<well-informed fact-based evidence-based rant>

I am always logically sensible as I make assessments based on fact.
In cases of lies though, you have to infer them based on actions.

The rant is that they lie about why they're doing this, since you can see
in my article on the precise location that their lies are brazenly told.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

Being intelligent and resourceful myself, I actually don't care so much
that the hoi polloi do everything that the marketing people tell them to do (like sheep led to slaughter); but what I deplore is that they're making it almost impossible for even the intelligent people to keep the radios off.

Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning off our tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the intelligentsia 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to prove with Wi-APs.

The end result is we're literally being tracked by the main entities,
Google & Apple, and, perhaps worse, by every single moron out there.

That bothers me when Google/Apple make it so that we can't turn it off.

</rant>

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Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:42:54 -0000 (UTC) :

I don't mind, for example, that the contacts sqlite database is uploaded by every prole out there who does exactly what marketing tells them to do, as long as I can operate my phone independently of a contacts sqlite database.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

Ooops. Wrong reference.

This is the XDA Developers' forum reference to what intelligent people can
do to not upload the contacts of all their kids, friends, family and their kids, to Apple & Google and developer databases - simply because only one
out of a million people is aware of why every app that can is grabbing your contacts sqlite database (one obvious solution being to empty it out).

<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-what-apps-methodology-do-you-use-to-isolate-your-default-android-contacts-sqlite-database-to-make-it-private-export-import-into-dialer.4636385/>

The point is this:
1. I don't mind Apple/Google wanting us to keep all our radios on
2. As long as I can turn them off

What I mind is when they unilaterally turn back on a radio I turned off.
And then both Apple & Google brazenly lie about why they're doing that.

As if we're all stupid.

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Chris wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 18:01:39 -0000 (UTC) :

Nowadays location based services are of course more often used to
distribute advertisements or to determine good locations to open the
next fast food restaurant etc..

Which are reasonable and acceptable use cases. "Andrew "is insinuating more nefarious data capture.

Hi Chris,

Unfortunately, 999 out of 1,000 posters to this newsgroup don't know what they're talking about - so let's test if you know what you're saying.

To do that is simple: *Answer this fundamental question*.

Why has Google unilaterally made it so that you can't do routing without turning on the Wi-Fi "precise location" when GPS worked just fine for
decades?

Before you answer that, read this directly related reference please.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

Then answer the basic and rather simple fundamental question please.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Arno Welzel wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 17:43:39 +0200 :

My point only is that this doesn't portend an ability to turn off bluetooth >>> in later releases because Google & Apple make too much $ off tracking us. >>

But do they really make money from knowing where I am?

Yes. Location based services where already a business model before we
had smartphones.

I agree that it's widely known that Google/Apple make money off of tracking
us - which - I posit - is their motive for making it such that they are suddenly turning radios on that we turned off (and worse - both Apple &
Google are brazenly lying about why they're turning our radios back on).

BTW, as evidence that we're not only tracked by Apple/Google, but we're
also tracked by every moron out there who doesn't know how to set up a
phone (which, let's face it, is 999 out of 1,000 smartphone owners)...

1. Apple just got caught with a severe privacy flaw which allows
anyone in the world to track your exact movements if they simply
know a single thing about you - which is your unique MAC address.
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com/hyRmC1x9/surveillance-risk-apple-s-wifi-based-positioning-system>

2. Apple has no plans to fix that extremely invasive privacy flaw,
(since Apple makes money on it existing most likely); so what
does Apple suggest as the workaround?
<https://misc.phone.mobile.iphone.narkive.com/c5ZfZyuW/new-vulnerability-in-apple-s-positioning-service-allows-troop-movements-to-be-tracked>

Yup. You guessed it. Apple suggests you add "_nomap" to the SSID.

3. Even if 1 out of 1000 people understood that and therefore did it,
what Apple doesn't tell you is that only 1 out of a million people
know that appending "_nomap" doesn't stop the morons out there from
*uploading* your private information to the Google/Apple databases!
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

Yes. You heard that right.
If you don't know this, then you're not the 1 out of a million
people who are not morons - which is the point of my recent rant.

People are incredibly stupid when it comes to doing what marketing tells
them to do - without even thinking about how it still allows tracking.

The only way (that I know of) to prevent that *upload* of your unique MAC address into Google's & Apple's tracking databases by the morons who drive
by your house every day is to hide the broadcast of that BSSID package.

Note: Every moron out there who knows that hiding a broadcast for reasons
of security will scream it doesn't help with security - and guess what -
you think I don't know that. I didn't say a word about security.

I'm talking about privacy.

I don't mind, for example, that the contacts sqlite database is uploaded by every prole out there who does exactly what marketing tells them to do, as
long as I can operate my phone independently of a contacts sqlite database.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

It's when Google & Apple lie about why they're doing what they're doing,
and at the same time, those lies justify them turning on radios (like your bluetooth radio) that you explicitly turned off... that gets me upset.

1. Apple/Google make money tracking us
2. As long as I can turn that off, I'm ok with morons led to slaughter
3. It's when Apple/Google turn my radios back on that I get upset
4. Especially when they lie about why they're turning my radios back on

In summary, my rant is that 1 out of a million people understand this
stuff, so most of the millions out there are actually joining with Apple
and with Google to track you every moment of the day everywhere you go.

Again, I accept that fact as long as I can be the one out of a million
people who knows the simple tricks for turning that tracking off.

It's when Apple & Google lie about why they're making tracking harder to
turn off (e.g., bluetooth radios that turn themselves back on) that I get disturbed.

Let them lead the million sheep out there to slaughter; but not me.

The only two things I ask of Apple/Google in this regard are...
1. If I turn a radio off, I want that radio off until *I* turn it back on.
2. And... Don't lie about why they're turning my radios back on!

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :

Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning off our tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the intelligentsia 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to prove with Wi-APs.

I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1 out of
a million people know this information, here's the backup reference cite.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

If you don't read that reference, just know these two facts, that only one
out of a million people seem to understand (which will be you after this).

1. Even if you add "_nomap" to your SSID, all the phones of all the morons
driving by your house are already set up to *upload* your BSSID and your
exact GPS Location to the Google/Apple/Wigle/Netstumbler/Mozilla/etc
server farms.

In simpler terms... the "_nomap" does nothing to protect you from the
upload by all the cellphones which are set up to the default settings.

2. All the "_nomap" does, is it tells those server farms to eventually
scrub your unique BSSID & GPS location from their servers.

But only well-behaved companies will do that, right?

3. That's why you need to know what only one in a million people know,
which is you *also* have to check the router box to "hide broadcast".

This is not for security, as the packets can be sniffed for the SSID
and the GPS location can be ascertained and uploaded to, say, WiGLe.

It's for privacy.

By hiding the broadcast, you insulate yourself from all the morons out
there who have their phones set up in the default configuration.

I posit only 1 out of a million people know this information, which is why
I rant not only about Apple/Microsoft/Google - but about every moron out
there who does everything that the Apple/Google/Microsoft marketing tells
them to.

They're like sheep led to slaughter - but even worse - they're the ones
feeding the Apple/Google/Microsoft marketing machine our private details.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

If it's really true that phones
are now being made that can't be powered down, that's
shocking and nonsensical.

To be clear, certain parts of them can remain on while the majority of
the phone is definitely off.

By which you mean a homing beacon to enable the cootie
tag function? Then again, if there's only a homing beacon
the phones turned off can't function as part of the network
of cootie tag trackers. This has got me curious to look up
how it actually works. The media seem to be specculating as
much as we are.

I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

It's still tracking even long after you thought you had shut it off.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Peter wrote:

I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a
full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted
FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will
then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing
the phone O/S to be running

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Andrew <andrew@spam.net> writes:

My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off.
That's it.

What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Richmond wrote on Tue, 04 Jun 2024 09:55:02 +0100 :

My only goal, really, is to be able to turn that stuff off.
That's it.

What happens if you wrap your phone in tin foil? (seriously). If I put
my phone in a tin it will only ring if wifi calling is enabled.

You're not as stupid as most of the people who posted so I will state that there are things that *intelligent* people can do to remain private.

While I'm familiar with the concept of a Faraday cage, I'm speaking more
about the kinds of things that I write about in my XDA Developer tutorials. https://xdaforums.com/m/galaxya325g.11604613/recent-content

The people who are not intelligent, are the ones ridiculing privacy.
It's not difficult to understand why those of the lowest IQ do that.

They don't understand anything, and certainly not privacy.
Don't be like those people.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/4/2024 2:19 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Peter wrote:

I don't know how they do it, but there's no way they can do it without
indicating that the phone is off, when it's not really off at all.

The bluetooth radio will have its own microcontroller (possibly even a
full ARM CPU) supposedly the main phone CPU will pre-compute encrypted
FMDN beacon packets before shutting down, which the bluetooth radio will
then "chant under its breath" until the battery dies, without needing
the phone O/S to be running

How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
it was at time of shutdown.

Last week I was reading about how
a carpenter got sick of having his tools stolen, so he put Apple
tags into some of them. He traced them to a storage garage.
(Oddly, the police then found millions of dollars worth of tools
in numerous garages. Apparently the thieves were industrious
but hadn't thought about how to resell their booty.)

So an Apple tag would be something like an RFID tag, and all
iPhones are enlisted into the tracking system? But a bluetooth
radio seems to have a different kind of function. On the other hand,
a transmission wouldn't need to include location if nearby phones
that pick it up track their own location.... There seems to be
something missing in this story. At any rate, I don't understand
it -- how it all works, what hardware is used, how far from an
active phone a turned-off phone can be and still be picked up,
etc.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 6/4/2024 8:31 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Newyana2 wrote:

���� How does that compare to Apple tags? The implication of
your description would be that the cellphone only transmits where
it was at time of shutdown.

It doesn't transit a location, just an encrypted ID, it's left for
a.n.other android device which "hears" the transmission to report where
it was when it heard the ID being transmitted.

That's similar to how Apple SmartTags work, I believe.

That would make sense. It would be like RFID tags, perhaps
with a battery signal booster. But then it's mysterious how
they can be tracked. The carpenter, for example, set out to find
his tools, following the beacon. But how likely is it that an
iPhone happens to be turned on within yards of that storage
garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting whatever they come
across, and someone with an iPhone happened to walk past
that garage last week?

It's not critical to know, of course. I'm just curious about how
all of this works. Recently there was a privacy discussion about
TVs communicating. My TVs are not Internet-connected. I find
it "beggars belief" to claim that the TV can and does talk to other
TVs in the neighborhood, eventually calling home with my viewing
habits. On the other hand, stranger things have happened.

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

TmV3eWFuYTIgd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gIMKgwqDCoCBIb3cgZG9lcyB0aGF0IGNvbXBhcmUgdG8g QXBwbGUgdGFncz8gVGhlIGltcGxpY2F0aW9uIG9mDQo+IHlvdXIgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gd291 bGQgYmUgdGhhdCB0aGUgY2VsbHBob25lIG9ubHkgdHJhbnNtaXRzIHdoZXJlDQo+IGl0IHdh cyBhdCB0aW1lIG9mIHNodXRkb3duLg0KDQpJdCBkb2Vzbid0IHRyYW5zaXQgYSBsb2NhdGlv biwganVzdCBhbiBlbmNyeXB0ZWQgSUQsIGl0J3MgbGVmdCBmb3IgDQphLm4ub3RoZXIgYW5k cm9pZCBkZXZpY2Ugd2hpY2ggImhlYXJzIiB0aGUgdHJhbnNtaXNzaW9uIHRvIHJlcG9ydCB3 aGVyZSANCml0IHdhcyB3aGVuIGl0IGhlYXJkIHRoZSBJRCBiZWluZyB0cmFuc21pdHRlZC4N Cg0KVGhhdCdzIHNpbWlsYXIgdG8gaG93IEFwcGxlIFNtYXJ0VGFncyB3b3JrLCBJIGJlbGll dmUuDQoNCg==

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Newyana2 wrote:

But how likely is it that an iPhone happens to be turned on within
yards of that storage garage? Or maybe all iPhones are reporting
whatever they come across, and someone with an iPhone happened to
walk past that garage last week?

Well, it does depend on a certain level of iPhones, and of course if you
lose something in a place nobody else visits, it'll never get stumbled upon.

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Chris wrote:

The airtag is battery powered and whenever
an apple device (and now google) passes by it logs what it has seen and where. The mobile device doesn't even need to have a live data connection
as it'll upload its sightings the next time it is online.

I did think the combined "fleet" of iphones and android phones were now
going to report positions of all tracking devices.

But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices,
iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only
reporting "findmydevice" devices.

The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as stalking devices).

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 17:14:46 +0100 :

But it seems that they will operate as two isolated sets of devices,
iphones only reporting "findmy" devices and android phones only
reporting "findmydevice" devices.

The only functionality they will share is warning of devices that are travelling with you, yet separated from their owner (i.e. being used as stalking devices).

Thanks for explaining & summarizing as I haven't delved into how they work.

If that's true, then that's a nice summary, as my main concern is simply to stay out of the databases, so I also appreciate the questions Mayayana has
been asking.

1. iPhones report findmy trackers; Androids report findmydevice trackers.
2. Both warn you when rogue findmy and/or findmydevice trackers are nearby.

The main basic privacy question I'd have is how my phone is reported.
And what I can do on my phone to prevent it from being reported by either.

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases.
Any advice there?

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Chris wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:11:50 -0000 (UTC) :

What did you learn by reading the reference you were supposed to read?
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

You mean the reference you wrote? I'm not going to anything I don't already know.

Heh heh heh... you prove my point for me.

Q: What do you know?
A: Nothing

Q: What did you learn?
A: Nothing

Q: What did you plan on learning?
A: Nothing

There's a name for people like you, Chris.
When I use that name, you get upset.

So I'll let you come up with the name.

Q: What should we call people like you Chris?
A: ?

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Andrew wrote:

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases. Any advice there?

Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet
here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a
Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

None of my own devices have shown up.

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

On 6/4/24 12:48, Andrew wrote:

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases. Any advice there?

Have only one, the Miami device, the one between your legs :-)

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Andy Burns wrote on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 18:38:50 +0100 :

I don't want to be in either Apple's or Google's findmy(device) databases. >> Any advice there?

Not so far, but today I installed nRFConnect

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

Thanks for that suggested app, where I had used, in the past, Apple's app.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trackerdetect>
And I had used AirGuard too, neither of which found anything at my home.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.seemoo.at_tracking_detection.release>

Yet the Nordic Semiconductor nRF app you suggested found a medical device
which I'm aware of, but which I had not known it had bluetooth capability.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=no.nordicsemi.android.mcp>

That medical device didn't show up under the "SCANNER" tab, nor under the "ADVERTISER" tab of the nRF app, but in the "BONDED" tab of the nRF app.

Looking up what "Bonded" means in this context, using this Google search
<https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+bonded+mean+for+bluetooth+trackers>

The first hit is this page which explains bonding and pairing of bluetooth.
<https://technotes.kynetics.com/2018/BLE_Pairing_and_bonding/>

Pairing: process where devices exchange the information necessary to
establish an encrypted connection. It involves authenticating the identity
of the two devices to be paired, encrypting the link, and distributing keys
to allow security to be restarted on a reconnection.

Bonding: process where the information from the pairing process is stored
on the devices, so that the pairing process does not have to be repeated
every time the devices reconnect to each other.

to see how many BLE beacons are floating around, so far fairly quiet
here, one FitBit Versa, one unknown HP device, one Apple iBeacon and a Stanley B&D Oven ... none of which are mine.

I live in the boonies so I wouldn't have expected any bluetooth devices to
show up in my first scan at home, but I'll try this at a local store to see
if it picks up any bluetooth trackers I presume some stores have installed.

None of my own devices have shown up.

I was surprised that the nRF app picked up a bluetooth medical device,
which I recognize by the brand name but which I had no idea had bluetooth.

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XPost: misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.mobile.android

Andrew, 2024-06-03 23:03:

[...]

To do that is simple: *Answer this fundamental question*.

Why has Google unilaterally made it so that you can't do routing
without turning on the Wi-Fi "precise location" when GPS worked just
fine for decades?

OSMAnd works fine for navigation even with WiFi completely turned off.

And Google Maps uses WiFi as well to provide a *much* faster location determiniation when a GPS fix is not ready yet. With OSMAnd it takes me sometimes a few minutes(!) before the app knows the location based on
GPS only.

Before you answer that, read this directly related reference please. <https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-do-you-know-a-way-to-permanently-disable-google-location-accuracy-precise-location-wi-fi-scanning-while-keeping-only-the-gps-radio-on.4543135/>

Then answer the basic and rather simple fundamental question please.

On my device - a Google Pixel 6a - "Wi-Fi scanning" and "Bluetooth
scanning" is *off* and does *never* turn on itself, also not when using
Google Maps, since Google Maps does not need these options to be enabled.

Also read the post on XDA: it is not Google which turns on these options
but third party apps like "Parked Car", "Car Location" and "Find my
parked car"!

I usually use the "Parking position" plugin in OSMAnd and *never* hat
the problem, that "Wi-Fi scanning" or "Bluetooth scanning" got turned on
when using that. Also Google Maps *never* turned these options on.

Maybe there was once a version of Google Maps which did not work without
"Wi-Fi scanning" or "Bluetooth scanning" - but at least version
11.131.0102 does not need these options.


--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

Andrew, 2024-06-04 07:19:

Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :

Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning off our >> tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the intelligentsia >> 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to prove with Wi-APs.

I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1 out of
a million people know this information, here's the backup reference cite.
<https://xdaforums.com/t/privacy-does-android-upload-your-home-ap-ssid-bssid-gps-if-the-home-ap-broadcast-beacon-is-hidden.4284897/>

No - hiding an SSID does *NOTHING* for privacy when you *use* a WiFi
network! The SSID is *alway* visible for connected devices, even when it
is "hidden".

You also need to avoid using Google devices in your WiFi network at all
and forbid others to do so as well.


--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

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XPost: comp.mobile.android, misc.phone.mobile.iphone

On 2024-06-11, Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> wrote:

Andrew, 2024-06-04 07:19:

Andrew wrote on Mon, 3 Jun 2024 20:13:28 -0000 (UTC) :

Let's be clear that a subtle portion of my rant against Apple's and
Google's brazen lies as to *why* they're preventing us from turning
off our tracking radios is partly that the morons (who outnumber the
intelligentsia 1000 to 1) are also tracking us - which is easy to
prove with Wi-APs.

I belatedly realized I hadn't backed up that claim, but since only 1
out of a million people know this information, here's the backup
reference cite.

No - hiding an SSID does *NOTHING* for privacy when you *use* a WiFi
network! The SSID is *alway* visible for connected devices, even when
it is "hidden".

Andrew has shown in this thread that he knows very little about how WiFi actually works. You'll have to excuse him. He's not a serious person -
just a troll.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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