New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
On 06/05/2024 19:00, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
What will your parents use it for? Do you intend to overclock the CPU,
and why (apart from the fact you can)?
Cases are very much a personal choice. Why not show your parents some >pictures? What will fit in with their decor?
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
On 06/05/2024 19:00, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
What will your parents use it for? Do you intend to overclock the CPU,
and why (apart from the fact you can)?
Cases are very much a personal choice. Why not show your parents some >pictures? What will fit in with their decor?
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
On 5/6/2024 2:00 PM, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
You'd start by identifying what your CPU really is.
Stuffing options are listed.
https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/motherboards/prime/prime-b660m-a-d4/helpdesk_qvl_cpu?model2Name=PRIME-B660M-A-D4
If the unit is a "boxed processor" as seen at your reseller,
that's really all you need is the cooler in the box. High
end "gamer CPUs" with very high Turbo power settings,
they don't come with a boxed cooler. The CPU container
is more slim and trim, if just a CPU is in the box.
I5-14500 2.6 GHz 65W
If you scroll down here, you will see that one has a GPU.
That means the computer doesn't need a video card. As long as you
see HDMI and DP ports on the I/O plate of the motherboard,
you can drive a monitor via a CPU that has a "GPU Name" line on Ark.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/236784/intel-core-i5-processor-14500-24m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html
GPU Name Intel UHD Graphics 770
The 14500 boxed CPU comes with the Intel Laminar Cooler.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/images/rm1-16x9.png.rendition.intel.web.1072.603.png
( https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/images/rm1-16x9.png.rendition.intel.web.1072.603.png )
Notice it has "those pins" to fasten it down. This is not
everyones choice in a cooler, because of pins like that. Yes,
the pins work, but sometimes the bit underneath gets bent,
and it mis-behaves during install.
And you don't really want any monster coolers, like the DeepCool AK620. >Because if it's a 65W processor, it doesn't need a lot of cooler. Heavy coolers
torque the CPU socket, and there is a mass limit for the cooler.
This one is rated at 119W or so. But then, it's kinda expensive ($100 US).
If you put the fan on top (blow-down), that leaves room for the RAM sticks >underneath. It has screws for the fitment, but the thread capture on
some of these things is poor, and they will annoy the hell out of you.
Once the top of the CPU is buttered up with thermal paste, fitting
the cooler is like "being on a skating rink". It pays to practice at
least one dry fitting -- I found I had to reach down pretty deep in the
case and feel for the thing I was trying to screw together, to get the >alignment needed.
https://noctua.at/en/nh-c14s/specification
Once you've picked a cooler, then you know how wide your
computer case has to be. It has to be wide enough so the
side door, clears the top of the cooler, with some room
to spare for air movement.
If you walk into any competent local computer store,
they could identify a cooler and help you find a case.
My computer store here, had a ton of Corsair cases, which
presumably was a promotion. Corsair cases are an
acquired taste. They're small-ish. But the computer store
also had other brands, just limited to one aisle in the store.
You want room for at least one good sized exhaust fan on
the back of the case. For a 65W processor, you're unlikely
to need some complicated 7 fan setup :-)
Paul
On Mon, 6 May 2024 20:36:56 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:
On 06/05/2024 19:00, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
What will your parents use it for? Do you intend to overclock the CPU,
and why (apart from the fact you can)?
Cases are very much a personal choice. Why not show your parents some
pictures? What will fit in with their decor?
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
I forgot to add, this wil be the CPU cooler:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermalright-Assassin-Spirit-Computer-Heatsink/dp/B0C7C5FTC7/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?
Will the motherboard fit into which case?
No overclock but I can get the CPU for a good price.
General use, not gaming.
On Mon, 6 May 2024 21:25:57 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 5/6/2024 2:00 PM, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
You'd start by identifying what your CPU really is.
Stuffing options are listed.
https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/motherboards/prime/prime-b660m-a-d4/helpdesk_qvl_cpu?model2Name=PRIME-B660M-A-D4
If the unit is a "boxed processor" as seen at your reseller,
that's really all you need is the cooler in the box. High
end "gamer CPUs" with very high Turbo power settings,
they don't come with a boxed cooler. The CPU container
is more slim and trim, if just a CPU is in the box.
I5-14500 2.6 GHz 65W
If you scroll down here, you will see that one has a GPU.
That means the computer doesn't need a video card. As long as you
see HDMI and DP ports on the I/O plate of the motherboard,
you can drive a monitor via a CPU that has a "GPU Name" line on Ark.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/236784/intel-core-i5-processor-14500-24m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html
GPU Name Intel UHD Graphics 770
The 14500 boxed CPU comes with the Intel Laminar Cooler.
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/images/rm1-16x9.png.rendition.intel.web.1072.603.png
( https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/central-libraries/us/en/images/rm1-16x9.png.rendition.intel.web.1072.603.png )
Notice it has "those pins" to fasten it down. This is not
everyones choice in a cooler, because of pins like that. Yes,
the pins work, but sometimes the bit underneath gets bent,
and it mis-behaves during install.
And you don't really want any monster coolers, like the DeepCool AK620.
Because if it's a 65W processor, it doesn't need a lot of cooler. Heavy coolers
torque the CPU socket, and there is a mass limit for the cooler.
This one is rated at 119W or so. But then, it's kinda expensive ($100 US). >> If you put the fan on top (blow-down), that leaves room for the RAM sticks >> underneath. It has screws for the fitment, but the thread capture on
some of these things is poor, and they will annoy the hell out of you.
Once the top of the CPU is buttered up with thermal paste, fitting
the cooler is like "being on a skating rink". It pays to practice at
least one dry fitting -- I found I had to reach down pretty deep in the
case and feel for the thing I was trying to screw together, to get the
alignment needed.
https://noctua.at/en/nh-c14s/specification
Once you've picked a cooler, then you know how wide your
computer case has to be. It has to be wide enough so the
side door, clears the top of the cooler, with some room
to spare for air movement.
If you walk into any competent local computer store,
they could identify a cooler and help you find a case.
My computer store here, had a ton of Corsair cases, which
presumably was a promotion. Corsair cases are an
acquired taste. They're small-ish. But the computer store
also had other brands, just limited to one aisle in the store.
You want room for at least one good sized exhaust fan on
the back of the case. For a 65W processor, you're unlikely
to need some complicated 7 fan setup :-)
Paul
Thanks to all, I just want to be sure that the motherboard fits the
case. Ones I mentioned - which one fits this model of motherboard?
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
On 7-May-2024, Dan <dannewsgroupsAAAA888@outlook.com> wrote:
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
This Motherboard is a microATX (mATX) size board, meaning it is a small >board. It will fit in almost any case, Al larger case will allow for better >cable routing and perhaps better airflow for cooling,
On Tue, 7 May 2024 12:38:51 GMT, shemp13@outlook.com wrote:
On 7-May-2024, Dan <dannewsgroupsAAAA888@outlook.com> wrote:
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
This Motherboard is a microATX (mATX) size board, meaning it is a small
board. It will fit in almost any case, Al larger case will allow for better >> cable routing and perhaps better airflow for cooling,
Motherboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-B760M-K-motherboard-Realtek-Ethernet/dp/B0BNQFRNJL/ref=sr_1_20?
ASUS Prime B760M-K D4, an Intel® B760 LGA 1700 mATX motherboard with
PCIe 4.0, two PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots, DDR4, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, VGA,
HDMI®, SATA 6 Gbps, front USB 3.2 Gen 1, Aura Sync £100.99
CPU: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-S1700-CORE-12400-GEN12/dp/B09MDH6B1P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?
Intel S1700 CORE i5 12400 BOX 6x2,5 65W GEN12, Black £149.99
RAM: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-CMK16GX4M2B3200C16-Vengeance-Performance-Desktop/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
Corsair VENGEANCE LPX DDR4 RAM 16GB (2x8GB) 3200MHz CL16 Intel XMP 2.0 Computer Memory - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3200C16) £37.99
Thermal paste: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCTIC-MX-4-2019-Performance-Durability/dp/B07L9BDY3T/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
ARCTIC MX-4 (4 g) - Premium Performance Thermal Paste for all
processors (CPU, GPU - PC, PS4, XBOX), very high thermal conductivity,
long durability, safe application, non-conductive, non-capacitive
£4.50
SSD: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WD_BLACK-SN770-2280-Gaming-speed/dp/B09QV692XY/ref=sr_1_4?
WD_BLACK SN770 1TB M.2 2280 Game Drive PCIe Gen4 NVMe up to 5150 MB/s
£69.95
Case: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Mid-Tower-High-Airflow-RapidRoute-Management/dp/B08C7BGV3D/ref=sr_1_3?
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Tempered Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case - High-Airflow
- Cable Management System - Spacious Interior - Two Included 120 mm
Fans - Black
£75.95
Total £439.37
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
On Tue, 7 May 2024 12:38:51 GMT, shemp13@outlook.com wrote:
On 7-May-2024, Dan <dannewsgroupsAAAA888@outlook.com> wrote:
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4This Motherboard is a microATX (mATX) size board, meaning it is a small
board. It will fit in almost any case, Al larger case will allow for better >> cable routing and perhaps better airflow for cooling,
Motherboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-B760M-K-motherboard-Realtek-Ethernet/dp/B0BNQFRNJL/ref=sr_1_20?
ASUS Prime B760M-K D4, an Intel® B760 LGA 1700 mATX motherboard with
PCIe 4.0, two PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots, DDR4, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, VGA,
HDMI®, SATA 6 Gbps, front USB 3.2 Gen 1, Aura Sync £100.99
CPU: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-S1700-CORE-12400-GEN12/dp/B09MDH6B1P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?
Intel S1700 CORE i5 12400 BOX 6x2,5 65W GEN12, Black £149.99
RAM: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-CMK16GX4M2B3200C16-Vengeance-Performance-Desktop/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
Corsair VENGEANCE LPX DDR4 RAM 16GB (2x8GB) 3200MHz CL16 Intel XMP 2.0 Computer Memory - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3200C16) £37.99
Thermal paste: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCTIC-MX-4-2019-Performance-Durability/dp/B07L9BDY3T/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
ARCTIC MX-4 (4 g) - Premium Performance Thermal Paste for all
processors (CPU, GPU - PC, PS4, XBOX), very high thermal conductivity,
long durability, safe application, non-conductive, non-capacitive
£4.50
SSD: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WD_BLACK-SN770-2280-Gaming-speed/dp/B09QV692XY/ref=sr_1_4?
WD_BLACK SN770 1TB M.2 2280 Game Drive PCIe Gen4 NVMe up to 5150 MB/s
£69.95
Case: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Mid-Tower-High-Airflow-RapidRoute-Management/dp/B08C7BGV3D/ref=sr_1_3?
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Tempered Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case - High-Airflow
- Cable Management System - Spacious Interior - Two Included 120 mm
Fans - Black
£75.95
Total £439.37
On Tue, 7 May 2024 12:38:51 GMT, shemp13@outlook.com wrote:
On 7-May-2024, Dan <dannewsgroupsAAAA888@outlook.com> wrote:
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
This Motherboard is a microATX (mATX) size board, meaning it is a small
board. It will fit in almost any case, Al larger case will allow for better >> cable routing and perhaps better airflow for cooling,
Motherboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-B760M-K-motherboard-Realtek-Ethernet/dp/B0BNQFRNJL/ref=sr_1_20?
ASUS Prime B760M-K D4, an Intel® B760 LGA 1700 mATX motherboard with
PCIe 4.0, two PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots, DDR4, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, VGA,
HDMI®, SATA 6 Gbps, front USB 3.2 Gen 1, Aura Sync £100.99
CPU: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-S1700-CORE-12400-GEN12/dp/B09MDH6B1P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?
Intel S1700 CORE i5 12400 BOX 6x2,5 65W GEN12, Black £149.99
RAM: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-CMK16GX4M2B3200C16-Vengeance-Performance-Desktop/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
Corsair VENGEANCE LPX DDR4 RAM 16GB (2x8GB) 3200MHz CL16 Intel XMP 2.0 Computer Memory - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3200C16) £37.99
Thermal paste: https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCTIC-MX-4-2019-Performance-Durability/dp/B07L9BDY3T/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
ARCTIC MX-4 (4 g) - Premium Performance Thermal Paste for all
processors (CPU, GPU - PC, PS4, XBOX), very high thermal conductivity,
long durability, safe application, non-conductive, non-capacitive
£4.50
SSD: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WD_BLACK-SN770-2280-Gaming-speed/dp/B09QV692XY/ref=sr_1_4?
WD_BLACK SN770 1TB M.2 2280 Game Drive PCIe Gen4 NVMe up to 5150 MB/s
£69.95
Case: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Mid-Tower-High-Airflow-RapidRoute-Management/dp/B08C7BGV3D/ref=sr_1_3?
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Tempered Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case - High-Airflow
- Cable Management System - Spacious Interior - Two Included 120 mm
Fans - Black
£75.95
Total £439.37
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
On 5/7/2024 1:56 PM, Dan wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024 12:38:51 GMT, shemp13@outlook.com wrote:
On 7-May-2024, Dan <dannewsgroupsAAAA888@outlook.com> wrote:
Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
This Motherboard is a microATX (mATX) size board, meaning it is a small
board. It will fit in almost any case, Al larger case will allow for better >>> cable routing and perhaps better airflow for cooling,
Motherboard:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-B760M-K-motherboard-Realtek-Ethernet/dp/B0BNQFRNJL/ref=sr_1_20?
ASUS Prime B760M-K D4, an Intel® B760 LGA 1700 mATX motherboard with
PCIe 4.0, two PCIe 4.0 M.2 slots, DDR4, Realtek 2.5Gb Ethernet, VGA,
HDMI®, SATA 6 Gbps, front USB 3.2 Gen 1, Aura Sync £100.99
CPU:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Intel-S1700-CORE-12400-GEN12/dp/B09MDH6B1P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?
Intel S1700 CORE i5 12400 BOX 6x2,5 65W GEN12, Black £149.99
RAM:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-CMK16GX4M2B3200C16-Vengeance-Performance-Desktop/dp/B0143UM4TC/ref=pd_bxgy_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
Corsair VENGEANCE LPX DDR4 RAM 16GB (2x8GB) 3200MHz CL16 Intel XMP 2.0
Computer Memory - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3200C16) £37.99
Thermal paste:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ARCTIC-MX-4-2019-Performance-Durability/dp/B07L9BDY3T/ref=pd_bxgy_thbs_d_sccl_2/261-9861765-7310503?
ARCTIC MX-4 (4 g) - Premium Performance Thermal Paste for all
processors (CPU, GPU - PC, PS4, XBOX), very high thermal conductivity,
long durability, safe application, non-conductive, non-capacitive
£4.50
SSD:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/WD_BLACK-SN770-2280-Gaming-speed/dp/B09QV692XY/ref=sr_1_4?
WD_BLACK SN770 1TB M.2 2280 Game Drive PCIe Gen4 NVMe up to 5150 MB/s
£69.95
Case:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Mid-Tower-High-Airflow-RapidRoute-Management/dp/B08C7BGV3D/ref=sr_1_3?
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Tempered Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case - High-Airflow
- Cable Management System - Spacious Interior - Two Included 120 mm
Fans - Black
£75.95
Total £439.37
ASUS Prime B760M-K D4 >https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/motherboards/prime/prime-b760m-k-d4/helpdesk_qvl_cpu?model2Name=PRIME-B760M-K-D4
Core i5 i5-12400 2.5GHz 65W 18MB 6 H-0 all <=== in the support list
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/134586/intel-core-i5-12400-processor-18m-cache-up-to-4-40-ghz.html
Base Frequency 2.50 GHz 6C 12T 65W 117W (turbo)
Max Turbo 4.40 GHz
GPU Name Intel UHD Graphics 730 (24 EU) HDMI 4096 x 2160 @ 60Hz
DP 7680 x 4320 @ 60Hz <=== no connector on panel, VGA only
CPU appears to come with Intel Laminar RM1 cooler (many adverts do not show)
*******
RAM has XMP. Build up the system, enter BIOS, turn on XMP. Done. Will run 3200 via XMP settings. Run memtest now.
*******
Corsair 4000D has no PSU.
Corsair 4000D is a "bottom-PSU" machine, which means the builder must
verify cables from PSU are long enough to reach motherboard.
Power supply purchased, should have ATX12V power connector. Doesn't
need to have a power connector for RTX4090. Regular PCIe connectors
should suffice (for future low-end expansion).
I had to go up £30 to get one with a decent set of cables. £99.95 (incl. VAT)
A reasonably priced one, the cable collection was "meh!". Like four cables or something.
The power level is "seasoned" for reliability, rather than "buying the power level
it really needs". I had an Enermax that should have been able to take the >load from an arithmetic point of view, but the step load the CPU kept presenting
was "beating the thing to death" and I had to swap out the supply. I happened >to have a Seasonic 600W (S12) as a spare, and that's what I'm using today.
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/seasonic-focus-gx-550-550w-80-gold-modular-power-supply-ca-06w-ss.html
Output: 550 W
+3,3V: 20 A
+5V: 20 A
+3,3V & +5V: 100 W
+12V: 45 A / 540 W <=== if someone wants a vid card some day, this leaves room for it. Just not RTX4090.
-12V: 0,3 A / 3,6 W <=== Used by serial port (RS232) on systems that have it >+5Vsb: 3 A / 15 W <=== Charges your IPhone. Be careful of overloads.
I don't like dabbling in no-name supplies, because you have no idea
what bottom-feeder made it. Seasonic makes their own supplies.
Every company will "contract", if the required retail price target
is too low for their factory to manage.
One product had good price, no data, so might as well be buying
"one size fits all shoes" rather than a power supply. So much comedy.
Power supplies have been "gouge pricing" for a number of years
now. And at least one web site that used to do a decent review,
has stopped. So we're kinda stuck for useful input on these things.
Anandtech still has a contributor who does supplies for them,
but they're likely to be the higher power ones. No reviewer really
likes to review the stuff we mostly buy.
Paul
On 06/05/2024 19:00, Dan wrote:
New build advice please.
Computer is for my parents.
Motherboard: Asus Prime B660M-A Wifi D4
CPU intel i5 1200T
RAM will be 16GB DDR4
My question, what after market cooler and which case?
DeepCool CH370 ARGB Micro-ATX Case
or
Cit Blaze Mid-Tower Gaming ATX Case
or
Fractal Design Meshify C Dark TG Gaming PC Case
or
Corsair 4000D AIRFLOW Glass Mid-Tower ATX Case
SSD will be WD 770 1TB.
Unless you are determined to build your own another, cheaper, option is
a refurbished Dell Optiplex or HP Elitedesk at half the price or less. >Refurbished can mean many things but most are ex office machines with
the hard drive wiped & fresh Windows install.
They tend to be SFF (Small Form Factor) although Optiplexes come in
Desktop, SFF & Micro sizes.
Most have M.2 slots for an NVMe drive = fast boot times
Very quiet
On Tue, 7 May 2024 19:53:08 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Thanks a lot. But they want a full PC.
I have this power supply: Cooler Master 600W ATX Power Supply - MWE
600 230V V2 - (Active PFC/80 PLUS White) MPE-6001-ACABW-UK
Will it do?
On 07/05/2024 20:13, Dan wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024 19:53:08 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Thanks a lot. But they want a full PC.
That is a full PC, believe it or not!
For what they want to do, wouldn't this (at just over £100) be perfectly sufficient?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
On Wed, 8 May 2024 11:52:55 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:
On 07/05/2024 20:13, Dan wrote:
On Tue, 7 May 2024 19:53:08 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Thanks a lot. But they want a full PC.
That is a full PC, believe it or not!
I understand, but upgrade ability is severely limited.
I have looked on eBay UK, it is actually cheaper to build my own.
This is my accumulated list of refurbished suppliers:
www.dellrefurbished.co.uk (Official Dell)
https://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/
https://itzoo.co.uk/
https://www.tier1online.com/
https://www.mycheaplaptop.co.uk/
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
[...]
For what they want to do, wouldn't this (at just over £100) be perfectly
sufficient?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Indeed, people often overlook 'Mini PC's like this.
If one has the space, money and doesn't mind the noise, then by all
means buy a full 'desktop' (often actually a 'tower') computer.
But for my wife's next computer (still (non-upgradable) Windows 10)
[1], I will be looking at 'Mini PC's and similar small/quiet computers.
Being able to upgrade/add hardware or/and easy/easier repair are nice features (of a full 'desktop' computer). But these features also come at
a cost. Nothing has only advantages and no disadvantages.
[1] Laptop in a desk drawer, with monitor, keyboard and mouse. So also
small and quiet.
On 08/05/2024 10:52, Dan wrote:
I have looked on eBay UK, it is actually cheaper to build my own.
It may be ... but that would be highly unusual, in my experience.
I have been building my own PCs for about 25 years. Doing so allows me
to specify the system I want, and allows me to specify components of
good quality where it really matters (PSUs, for example), but it has
never saved me money when compared with buying the cheapest Dell or
Lenovo machine that would "do".
The difference is even more when compared with a refurbished system from
a reputable supplier.
The following is cut/pasted from a posting in this very newsgroup by
Philip Herlihy, a couple of months ago:
This is my accumulated list of refurbished suppliers:
www.dellrefurbished.co.uk (Official Dell)
https://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/
https://itzoo.co.uk/
https://www.tier1online.com/
https://www.mycheaplaptop.co.uk/
I can personally vouch for Tier1.
On 08/05/2024 15:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
[...]
For what they want to do, wouldn't this (at just over £100) be perfectly >> sufficient?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Indeed, people often overlook 'Mini PC's like this.
If one has the space, money and doesn't mind the noise, then by all means buy a full 'desktop' (often actually a 'tower') computer.
But for my wife's next computer (still (non-upgradable) Windows 10)
[1], I will be looking at 'Mini PC's and similar small/quiet computers.
Being able to upgrade/add hardware or/and easy/easier repair are nice features (of a full 'desktop' computer). But these features also come at
a cost. Nothing has only advantages and no disadvantages.
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM -
whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be
more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
[1] Laptop in a desk drawer, with monitor, keyboard and mouse. So also small and quiet.
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
On 08/05/2024 15:34, Frank Slootweg wrote:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
[...]
For what they want to do, wouldn't this (at just over £100) be perfectly >> >> sufficient?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Indeed, people often overlook 'Mini PC's like this.
If one has the space, money and doesn't mind the noise, then by all
means buy a full 'desktop' (often actually a 'tower') computer.
But for my wife's next computer (still (non-upgradable) Windows 10)
[1], I will be looking at 'Mini PC's and similar small/quiet computers.
Being able to upgrade/add hardware or/and easy/easier repair are nice >> > features (of a full 'desktop' computer). But these features also come at >> > a cost. Nothing has only advantages and no disadvantages.
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally,
repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM -
whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be
more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
True. I was more thinking about upgrades/repairs like interface cards,
memory, fan, HDD/SDD, etc..
FWIW, I/we have been using laptops since some 25+ years and have had
only one (display) failure, which was not economical to repair. Never
needed an internal upgrade (like memory, HDD/SSD). I need portability
(for my wife it's a nice-to-have), so it's a no-brainer for us.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
[1] Laptop in a desk drawer, with monitor, keyboard and mouse. So also
small and quiet.
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
[...]
For what they want to do, wouldn't this (at just over £100) be perfectly
sufficient?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005234838380.html
Indeed, people often overlook 'Mini PC's like this.
If one has the space, money and doesn't mind the noise, then by all
means buy a full 'desktop' (often actually a 'tower') computer.
But for my wife's next computer (still (non-upgradable) Windows 10)
[1], I will be looking at 'Mini PC's and similar small/quiet computers.
Being able to upgrade/add hardware or/and easy/easier repair are nice
features (of a full 'desktop' computer). But these features also come at
a cost. Nothing has only advantages and no disadvantages.
[1] Laptop in a desk drawer, with monitor, keyboard and mouse. So also
small and quiet.
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
On 08/05/2024 10:52, Dan wrote:
I have looked on eBay UK, it is actually cheaper to build my own.
It may be ... but that would be highly unusual, in my experience.
I have been building my own PCs for about 25 years. Doing so allows me
to specify the system I want, and allows me to specify components of
good quality where it really matters (PSUs, for example), but it has
never saved me money when compared with buying the cheapest Dell or
Lenovo machine that would "do".
The difference is even more when compared with a refurbished system
from a reputable supplier.
The following is cut/pasted from a posting in this very newsgroup by
Philip Herlihy, a couple of months ago:
This is my accumulated list of refurbished suppliers:
www.dellrefurbished.co.uk (Official Dell)
https://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/
https://itzoo.co.uk/
https://www.tier1online.com/
https://www.mycheaplaptop.co.uk/
I can personally vouch for Tier1.
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than a
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important (like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for over-speccing . . .
On 08/05/2024 17:07, Daniel James wrote:
On 08/05/2024 10:52, Dan wrote:Don't write-off DELL or HP brand new machines. For most people,
I have looked on eBay UK, it is actually cheaper to build my own.
It may be ... but that would be highly unusual, in my experience.
I have been building my own PCs for about 25 years. Doing so allows me
to specify the system I want, and allows me to specify components of
good quality where it really matters (PSUs, for example), but it has
never saved me money when compared with buying the cheapest Dell or
Lenovo machine that would "do".
The difference is even more when compared with a refurbished system
from a reputable supplier.
The following is cut/pasted from a posting in this very newsgroup by
Philip Herlihy, a couple of months ago:
This is my accumulated list of refurbished suppliers:
www.dellrefurbished.co.uk (Official Dell)
https://www.bargainhardware.co.uk/
https://itzoo.co.uk/
https://www.tier1online.com/
https://www.mycheaplaptop.co.uk/
I can personally vouch for Tier1.
including corporate users, brand new machines are the best option for
serious work. For gamers, they need to build their own rig but for dan's father a new machine will give him peace of mind (and free warranty for
1 year) for some time to come. Dell machines are really quite stable and
long lasting. I have DELL Optiplex 760 which I scavenged from somebody's waste bin and the only thing I changed is a new HDD and 8GB ram and it
runs Windows 11 23H2. I am told it won't be able to run 24H2 because Microsoft has blocked people using old machines for Windows 11 24H2.
They won't full spec machine these days!! But it doesn't bother me
because there is always a way to install windows OS.
On 5/9/2024 12:06 AM, RJH wrote:
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use >>>> more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual
gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than a
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very >> quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's >> blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a
motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important
(like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for
over-speccing . . .
TPM 2.0 Secure boot (may not actually be engaged). Can be fTPM (BIOS fake TPM)
or physical TPM module.
Check motherboard user manual for fTPM enable setting. I'm not using Secure Boot.
MBEC Hardware support for... https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-security/enable-virtualization-based-protection-of-code-integrity
POPCNT (Population Count instruction, new for AI. POPCNT(0x000FFFFF) = 20 decimal)
SSE 4.2 (Possibly for upcoming AI and a lack of NPU -- haven't seen any other comments)
On 5/8/2024 1:54 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and
his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
Chug-a-lug, Chug-a-lug...
CPU Specifications
Total Cores 4
Total Threads 4
Burst Frequency 2.90 GHz
Processor Base Frequency 2.00 GHz
Cache 4 MB L3 Cache
TDP 15 W
It's like buying a dumpster tablet.
If Windows is involved, you have to plan for the future.
The machine will not get any faster, especially when
the next W11 Upgrade shows up (it's on the Insider right now).
I've bought "economical things" in the past, but I also
lived to regret it. If Microsoft wasn't so determined to make
things worse, I would not be leaning in the direction of
fattening Intels pockets. Maybe the AliExpress box would be
a winner under Linux.
On 9 May 2024 at 07:13:58 BST, Paul wrote:
On 5/9/2024 12:06 AM, RJH wrote:
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual >>> gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than aOf course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the >>>>> mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use >>>>> more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and >>>> his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-) >>>
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very >>> quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's
blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a
motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important
(like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for >>> over-speccing . . .
TPM 2.0 Secure boot (may not actually be engaged). Can be fTPM (BIOS fake TPM)
or physical TPM module.
Check motherboard user manual for fTPM enable setting. I'm not using >> Secure Boot.
MBEC Hardware support for...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-security/enable-virtualization-based-protection-of-code-integrity
POPCNT (Population Count instruction, new for AI. POPCNT(0x000FFFFF) = 20
decimal)
SSE 4.2 (Possibly for upcoming AI and a lack of NPU -- haven't seen any other
comments)
It's an Asus H110M-C - connector for the module only.
On 5/9/2024 5:34 AM, RJH wrote:
On 9 May 2024 at 07:13:58 BST, Paul wrote:
On 5/9/2024 12:06 AM, RJH wrote:
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual >>>> gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than aOf course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the >>>>>> mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the >>>>>> point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use >>>>>> more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and >>>>> his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-) >>>>
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very >>>> quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's
blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a
motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important
(like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for >>>> over-speccing . . .
TPM 2.0 Secure boot (may not actually be engaged). Can be fTPM (BIOS fake TPM)
or physical TPM module.
Check motherboard user manual for fTPM enable setting. I'm not using >>> Secure Boot.
MBEC Hardware support for...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-security/enable-virtualization-based-protection-of-code-integrity
POPCNT (Population Count instruction, new for AI. POPCNT(0x000FFFFF) = 20 >>> decimal)
SSE 4.2 (Possibly for upcoming AI and a lack of NPU -- haven't seen any other
comments)
It's an Asus H110M-C - connector for the module only.
For Dans:
https://www.asus.com/supportonly/prime%20b760m-k%20d4/helpdesk_manual/
(BIOS manual)
TPM Device Selection
Allows you to select the TPM device between Firmware TPM or Discrete TPM.
[Enable Discrete TPM] Enable Discrete TPM and disable platform Firmware TPM. If you
plug in a discrete TPM card on your motherboard, please select this option.
[Enable Firmware TPM] Enable platform Firmware TPM and disable Discrete TPM.
That board has a 13 pin at the bottom of the board, for the module.
The modules tend to be "most available" during the family launch.
They keep changing the keying pin, and when I bought one here, there
were already three pinouts for the 14 pin one. And as far as I know,
the supply has dried up quite a bit today. I'd have to sweep the net
to find one today.
The problem with the firmware one, was a couple of times there were >"stuttering bugs" caused by it, and those were hard to fix. One new
BIOS issued, did not fix what it was supposed to fix. The price of
a TPM is not particularly good, and do you really want to pay $20
for something that doesn't stutter ? It's a hard ask. But I can understand >why the module is $20, because as soon as any PCB is involved, that's
extra steps for packaging.
The TPM modules also have to be properly programmed. In a
few obscure cases, there are older modules that needed to be
fixed but no firmware was issued. Some of them can be flashed
from TPM 2.0 to TPM 1.1 or so (don't ask me why you would do that).
The topic of TPM is just a damn nuisance. If only one option
worked flawlessly.
When I bought my current motherboard, even though I knew mine had
fTPM, I asked the person at the counter if they had <specific part number>, >and he had them under the cash. And had a handful of them down there,
like candy. No such bowl of goodies today. All gone.
*******
My older motherboard doesn't have fTPM and the TPM modules (LPC type)
were also hard to find (and the wrong version anyway).
So hardly going to be smiled upon, by the W11 installer.
While you can use Rufus.ie USB converter, and its four switches
(tick boxes) to defeat some of the W11 feature checks,
it in effect installs your OS as W10, then when a W11
Upgrade comes in (like 24H2), that Upgrade Install will
fail when it finds W10-like metadata. You would have
to prepare another Rufus (24H2) ISO based USB stick,
to Upgrade the 23H2 OS. There is obviously some risk
in all this (tightrope act). But that does not affect Dan,
because the hardware in his case, is a lot newer than my old
machine. (Somewhere on the Microsoft site, is a list of
supported processors for W11, ones with MBEC presumably.)
Microsoft does sometimes "get a hate on" about certain
developers, and they unleash their AV department on them
as punishment (quarantine their software on arrival).
Paul
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM -
whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be
more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the
mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the
point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use
more power.
 On the downside is poor adaptability and hidden costs. For example,
my laptop didn't even come with an ethernet port. I had to buy
a USB adapter. If I needed more USB ports I'd need a powered hub.
If I wanted to read/write DVDs then I'd need to buy an external...
again probably needing a powered USB hub. I bought a USB mouse
for it because the fingerpad is junk. The keys are hard to read. A
laptop isn't for anyone REALLY using a computer. It's limited and
not ergonomic. Though my laptop did allow for adding an extra SSD.
On Thu, 9 May 2024 07:30:56 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 5/9/2024 5:34 AM, RJH wrote:
On 9 May 2024 at 07:13:58 BST, Paul wrote:
On 5/9/2024 12:06 AM, RJH wrote:
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual >>>>> gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than aOf course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the >>>>>>> mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the >>>>>>> point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use >>>>>>> more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and >>>>>> his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-) >>>>>
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very
quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's
blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a >>>>> motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important
(like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for >>>>> over-speccing . . .
TPM 2.0 Secure boot (may not actually be engaged). Can be fTPM (BIOS fake TPM)
or physical TPM module.
Check motherboard user manual for fTPM enable setting. I'm not using
Secure Boot.
MBEC Hardware support for...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-security/enable-virtualization-based-protection-of-code-integrity
POPCNT (Population Count instruction, new for AI. POPCNT(0x000FFFFF) = 20 >>>> decimal)
SSE 4.2 (Possibly for upcoming AI and a lack of NPU -- haven't seen any other
comments)
It's an Asus H110M-C - connector for the module only.
For Dans:
https://www.asus.com/supportonly/prime%20b760m-k%20d4/helpdesk_manual/
(BIOS manual)
TPM Device Selection
Allows you to select the TPM device between Firmware TPM or Discrete TPM. >>
[Enable Discrete TPM] Enable Discrete TPM and disable platform Firmware TPM. If you
plug in a discrete TPM card on your motherboard, please select this option.
[Enable Firmware TPM] Enable platform Firmware TPM and disable Discrete TPM.
That board has a 13 pin at the bottom of the board, for the module.
The modules tend to be "most available" during the family launch.
They keep changing the keying pin, and when I bought one here, there
were already three pinouts for the 14 pin one. And as far as I know,
the supply has dried up quite a bit today. I'd have to sweep the net
to find one today.
The problem with the firmware one, was a couple of times there were
"stuttering bugs" caused by it, and those were hard to fix. One new
BIOS issued, did not fix what it was supposed to fix. The price of
a TPM is not particularly good, and do you really want to pay $20
for something that doesn't stutter ? It's a hard ask. But I can understand >> why the module is $20, because as soon as any PCB is involved, that's
extra steps for packaging.
The TPM modules also have to be properly programmed. In a
few obscure cases, there are older modules that needed to be
fixed but no firmware was issued. Some of them can be flashed
from TPM 2.0 to TPM 1.1 or so (don't ask me why you would do that).
The topic of TPM is just a damn nuisance. If only one option
worked flawlessly.
When I bought my current motherboard, even though I knew mine had
fTPM, I asked the person at the counter if they had <specific part number>, >> and he had them under the cash. And had a handful of them down there,
like candy. No such bowl of goodies today. All gone.
*******
My older motherboard doesn't have fTPM and the TPM modules (LPC type)
were also hard to find (and the wrong version anyway).
So hardly going to be smiled upon, by the W11 installer.
While you can use Rufus.ie USB converter, and its four switches
(tick boxes) to defeat some of the W11 feature checks,
it in effect installs your OS as W10, then when a W11
Upgrade comes in (like 24H2), that Upgrade Install will
fail when it finds W10-like metadata. You would have
to prepare another Rufus (24H2) ISO based USB stick,
to Upgrade the 23H2 OS. There is obviously some risk
in all this (tightrope act). But that does not affect Dan,
because the hardware in his case, is a lot newer than my old
machine. (Somewhere on the Microsoft site, is a list of
supported processors for W11, ones with MBEC presumably.)
Microsoft does sometimes "get a hate on" about certain
developers, and they unleash their AV department on them
as punishment (quarantine their software on arrival).
Paul
Great and thanks Paul and everyone else!!
So the motherboard can take a fresh install of Win 11?
On 5/8/2024 12:08 PM, GB wrote:
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM - whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use more power.
All of what you're saying is true. I think I could get
a Compaq at Staples for about $400. 2-3 years ago I bought
a cheap Asus laptop for about $500 that I only take out of
the closet occasionally. I bought it mostly out of curiosity
and to have something that could handle webpages that older
Firefox couldn't handle. (Though for $500 it's very limited. And
somewhat slow.)
Another advantage of pre-builts is that the hardware combos
are generally well tested, so they tend to be dependable. I've
had several hand-me-down Dells as extra computers that just
keep chugging.
On the downside is poor adaptability and hidden costs. For example,
my laptop didn't even come with an ethernet port. I had to buy
a USB adapter. If I needed more USB ports I'd need a powered hub.
If I wanted to read/write DVDs then I'd need to buy an external...
again probably needing a powered USB hub. I bought a USB mouse
for it because the fingerpad is junk. The keys are hard to read. A
laptop isn't for anyone REALLY using a computer. It's limited and
not ergonomic. Though my laptop did allow for adding an extra SSD.
I recently built a new computer for Win10. That has downsides
because any part can turn out faulty. It can get expensive. And
you have to buy the Windows license. But in my case it was about
$400. I already had a spare case and SSDs on hand. *And it's fun.*
That's not a small factor for people who are handy and like to do
this stuff.
I now have an extremely fast, multibooting computer made from
some of the cheapest parts. I have a 27" monitor mounted on a drawer
slide, a trackball, and a steelcase office chair. I'm too old to be leaning over and squinting. I see people leaning
over laptops on their living room coffee table and that just seems to
me like not properly relating to the situation. It's terrible posture.
It's a small screen. I ask them why they don't get a real computer and
they say because the laptop is portable. But they never move it!
I could have spent $400 just for a big SSD. I could have spent 3 times
that for a CPU or RAM alone. But these days hardware is mature in
terms of what a desktop needs. There's no point buying the latest CPUs
or fancy RAM unless you're a teenager with their parents' charge card.
Those kids remind me of when I was in high school. The rich kids always
had amazing stereo systems... to listen to Black Sabbath. :)
Here's what I bought at Microcenter:
Intel i5 12400 6-Core Boxed Processor with fan $150
(My first Intel ever. I hope I don't regret it.)
MSI B760M-P Pro Intel LGA 1700 microATX Motherboard $100
G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL16 Dual Channel RAM $40
Thermaltake Smart Series 700 Watt 80 Plus $60
I had a spare case, as I mentioned. Those used to be
about $20. It's just sheet metal. I had spare SSDs. But
a 500GB can be had for about $50. (Anyone who says
they need 4TB needs to clean up their vacation photos
and stop taking selfies everywhere they go.) Ethernet,
audio and display are all on-chip. I had a spare DVD writer.
They're only $25 max, anyway. So building it was actually
very cheap, giving me a system comparable to something
3-4 times the price retail. (That box would have a lot more
RAM, and so on, but this box is already what the computer
journalists call "blazingly fast".)
To me it's really a personal question. There are a lot of
factors that come into it. And everyone's different in terms
of priorities and needs. For older people, especially, who mostly
just check email, I'd focus more on ergonomics than power
or expandability.
On 5/9/2024 8:44 AM, Dan wrote:
On Thu, 9 May 2024 07:30:56 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 5/9/2024 5:34 AM, RJH wrote:
On 9 May 2024 at 07:13:58 BST, Paul wrote:
On 5/9/2024 12:06 AM, RJH wrote:
On 8 May 2024 at 18:54:37 BST, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the >>>>>>>> mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the >>>>>>>> point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use >>>>>>>> more power.
I doubt that the OP's parents need all that power, but it's their and >>>>>>> his choice and I have no problem if someone is helping your economy! :-)
FWIW, I use a Windows 10 machine (core i3 6100, 8GB RAM, SSD) for casual >>>>>> gaming, MS Office and web stuff, and it's fine - not appreciably slower than a
2021 iMac (32GB RAM, i5) for similar uses. Significantly for me, it's very
quiet - that was a primary design aim.
Is Windows 11 much more resource hungry? I wouldn't know in practice as it's
blocked from updating - I forget the exact reason but it'd involve a >>>>>> motherboard change.
It really depends what it's needed for and whether other things are important
(like noise and power consumption, and peripherals) - I don't think the OP has
set that out. Although future proofing is often a good enough reason for >>>>>> over-speccing . . .
TPM 2.0 Secure boot (may not actually be engaged). Can be fTPM (BIOS fake TPM)
or physical TPM module.
Check motherboard user manual for fTPM enable setting. I'm not using
Secure Boot.
MBEC Hardware support for...
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/hardware-security/enable-virtualization-based-protection-of-code-integrity
POPCNT (Population Count instruction, new for AI. POPCNT(0x000FFFFF) = 20 >>>>> decimal)
SSE 4.2 (Possibly for upcoming AI and a lack of NPU -- haven't seen any other
comments)
It's an Asus H110M-C - connector for the module only.
For Dans:
https://www.asus.com/supportonly/prime%20b760m-k%20d4/helpdesk_manual/
(BIOS manual)
TPM Device Selection
Allows you to select the TPM device between Firmware TPM or Discrete TPM. >>>
[Enable Discrete TPM] Enable Discrete TPM and disable platform Firmware TPM. If you
plug in a discrete TPM card on your motherboard, please select this option.
[Enable Firmware TPM] Enable platform Firmware TPM and disable Discrete TPM.
That board has a 13 pin at the bottom of the board, for the module.
The modules tend to be "most available" during the family launch.
They keep changing the keying pin, and when I bought one here, there
were already three pinouts for the 14 pin one. And as far as I know,
the supply has dried up quite a bit today. I'd have to sweep the net
to find one today.
The problem with the firmware one, was a couple of times there were
"stuttering bugs" caused by it, and those were hard to fix. One new
BIOS issued, did not fix what it was supposed to fix. The price of
a TPM is not particularly good, and do you really want to pay $20
for something that doesn't stutter ? It's a hard ask. But I can understand >>> why the module is $20, because as soon as any PCB is involved, that's
extra steps for packaging.
The TPM modules also have to be properly programmed. In a
few obscure cases, there are older modules that needed to be
fixed but no firmware was issued. Some of them can be flashed
from TPM 2.0 to TPM 1.1 or so (don't ask me why you would do that).
The topic of TPM is just a damn nuisance. If only one option
worked flawlessly.
When I bought my current motherboard, even though I knew mine had
fTPM, I asked the person at the counter if they had <specific part number>, >>> and he had them under the cash. And had a handful of them down there,
like candy. No such bowl of goodies today. All gone.
*******
My older motherboard doesn't have fTPM and the TPM modules (LPC type)
were also hard to find (and the wrong version anyway).
So hardly going to be smiled upon, by the W11 installer.
While you can use Rufus.ie USB converter, and its four switches
(tick boxes) to defeat some of the W11 feature checks,
it in effect installs your OS as W10, then when a W11
Upgrade comes in (like 24H2), that Upgrade Install will
fail when it finds W10-like metadata. You would have
to prepare another Rufus (24H2) ISO based USB stick,
to Upgrade the 23H2 OS. There is obviously some risk
in all this (tightrope act). But that does not affect Dan,
because the hardware in his case, is a lot newer than my old
machine. (Somewhere on the Microsoft site, is a list of
supported processors for W11, ones with MBEC presumably.)
Microsoft does sometimes "get a hate on" about certain
developers, and they unleash their AV department on them
as punishment (quarantine their software on arrival).
Paul
Great and thanks Paul and everyone else!!
So the motherboard can take a fresh install of Win 11?
Well, there's a few things you can check as a builder.
Does BIOS have fTPM listed ? Yes. (You're ALWAYS supposed
to download the one or two manuals, that accompany your
prospective purchase. Review the contents for the things
needed by the OS choice.)
Is the processor on the Microsoft list ? That
should be a yes as well.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
Intel Core i5-12400
A less-specified element is the GPU (in your case the one
inside the CPU). Yours is still in support, so should
not be a problem. We would need to see a "dxdiag" screen
from an existing customer PC, to check the details. As
usual, Google does not deliver.
dxdiag Intel UHD Graphics 730
One of the screens in dxdiag lists "WDDM 3.1" or so,
which is a driver that is up to date with the latest
WDDM API.
My Optiplex 780, has an XDDM driver, and that's an example
of a (now-obsolete) driver standard. The 13 Watt video card I
used to replace the built-in GPU, it has only a WDDM 1.1 or
so driver, so it "barely made the cut". Your GPU should
be fine for W11.
When you use something like an FX5200 video card, the
OS uses the "Microsoft Basic Display Driver", and that
tends to be frozen at 1024x768, and on your average
monitor, would look weird and distorted (circles versus
ellipses). While there are ways to force the OS to run
on an FX5200, the results are hardly pleasant, and you
know they're doing that on purpose.
I've had a driver like that operate at sizes other than
1024x768, but I don't know why it was doing that, or
I'd be telling people how to do it :-)
Windows downloads the graphics driver for you. But, it takes
a reboot or two, before it looks in earnest for that item.
Some of those drivers are 500MB in size, which is why
it can take quite a few minutes before the monitor runs
at native resolution.
Paul
On 5/9/2024 8:25 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 5/8/2024 12:08 PM, GB wrote:
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM - whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use more power.
All of what you're saying is true. I think I could get
a Compaq at Staples for about $400. 2-3 years ago I bought
a cheap Asus laptop for about $500 that I only take out of
the closet occasionally. I bought it mostly out of curiosity
and to have something that could handle webpages that older
Firefox couldn't handle. (Though for $500 it's very limited. And
somewhat slow.)
Another advantage of pre-builts is that the hardware combos
are generally well tested, so they tend to be dependable. I've
had several hand-me-down Dells as extra computers that just
keep chugging.
On the downside is poor adaptability and hidden costs. For example,
my laptop didn't even come with an ethernet port. I had to buy
a USB adapter. If I needed more USB ports I'd need a powered hub.
If I wanted to read/write DVDs then I'd need to buy an external...
again probably needing a powered USB hub. I bought a USB mouse
for it because the fingerpad is junk. The keys are hard to read. A
laptop isn't for anyone REALLY using a computer. It's limited and
not ergonomic. Though my laptop did allow for adding an extra SSD.
I recently built a new computer for Win10. That has downsides
because any part can turn out faulty. It can get expensive. And
you have to buy the Windows license. But in my case it was about
$400. I already had a spare case and SSDs on hand. *And it's fun.*
That's not a small factor for people who are handy and like to do
this stuff.
I now have an extremely fast, multibooting computer made from
some of the cheapest parts. I have a 27" monitor mounted on a drawer
slide, a trackball, and a steelcase office chair. I'm too old to be leaning >> over and squinting. I see people leaning
over laptops on their living room coffee table and that just seems to
me like not properly relating to the situation. It's terrible posture.
It's a small screen. I ask them why they don't get a real computer and
they say because the laptop is portable. But they never move it!
I could have spent $400 just for a big SSD. I could have spent 3 times
that for a CPU or RAM alone. But these days hardware is mature in
terms of what a desktop needs. There's no point buying the latest CPUs
or fancy RAM unless you're a teenager with their parents' charge card.
Those kids remind me of when I was in high school. The rich kids always
had amazing stereo systems... to listen to Black Sabbath. :)
Here's what I bought at Microcenter:
Intel i5 12400 6-Core Boxed Processor with fan $150
(My first Intel ever. I hope I don't regret it.)
MSI B760M-P Pro Intel LGA 1700 microATX Motherboard $100
G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL16 Dual Channel RAM $40
Thermaltake Smart Series 700 Watt 80 Plus $60
I had a spare case, as I mentioned. Those used to be
about $20. It's just sheet metal. I had spare SSDs. But
a 500GB can be had for about $50. (Anyone who says
they need 4TB needs to clean up their vacation photos
and stop taking selfies everywhere they go.) Ethernet,
audio and display are all on-chip. I had a spare DVD writer.
They're only $25 max, anyway. So building it was actually
very cheap, giving me a system comparable to something
3-4 times the price retail. (That box would have a lot more
RAM, and so on, but this box is already what the computer
journalists call "blazingly fast".)
To me it's really a personal question. There are a lot of
factors that come into it. And everyone's different in terms
of priorities and needs. For older people, especially, who mostly
just check email, I'd focus more on ergonomics than power
or expandability.
Some of the newer PCs do really well on power.
In the year 2000, my 440BX system with a Tualatin in it (adapter),
it drew 150W idle and 153W flat out. Such a pig. Just a stupid room heater.
My year 2013 machine, it idles at 100W. Hardly impressive,
compared to the year 2000 machine. But the reason for that,
is it has 42 PCI Express lanes, and the chipset is gulping
the watts on that thing.
The machine I'm typing on, is powerful, and it idles at 36W.
This power number is measured with a P3 International Kill-O-Watt mains meter. >The 12400 should be able to beat such a number (at idle).
And some machines, if you find the "overclocker package",
there is an "ECO mode switch" on some CPU models, that
can reduce the power below what you see currently. If the
CPU has two silicon dice, ECO mode basically turns one
of them off.
You also have the option of going into the BIOS, turning
off Hyperthreading and turning off Turbo. That is an
alternative way of doing your own ECO, if you can't find
software to do it.
There have been a few motherboards, where you have
control of the core count. You can turn a six core
CPU down to a one core CPU. However, there was one
CPU which cost $1000, if you went into the BIOS and
set it to one core, the CPU was destroyed instantly :-)
Of course, it would HAVE to be the most expensive
processor, to have a flaw like that. The other settings
I mentioned, Hyperthreading and Turbo, those are safe.
The one core problem, could have been an issue with
a "hot spot" cracking the die or something. But I do not
recollect anyone doing a post-mortem. Some of the users
would likely send the CPU back to Intel for a replacement
on the warranty. My ten year old machine has that setting
and... strangely I am not interested.
Paul
On Thu, 9 May 2024 10:01:28 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 5/9/2024 8:25 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 5/8/2024 12:08 PM, GB wrote:
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM - whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be more than the entire cost of the mini PC.
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use more power.
  All of what you're saying is true. I think I could get
a Compaq at Staples for about $400. 2-3 years ago I bought
a cheap Asus laptop for about $500 that I only take out of
the closet occasionally. I bought it mostly out of curiosity
and to have something that could handle webpages that older
Firefox couldn't handle. (Though for $500 it's very limited. And
somewhat slow.)
  Another advantage of pre-builts is that the hardware combos
are generally well tested, so they tend to be dependable. I've
had several hand-me-down Dells as extra computers that just
keep chugging.
 On the downside is poor adaptability and hidden costs. For example,
my laptop didn't even come with an ethernet port. I had to buy
a USB adapter. If I needed more USB ports I'd need a powered hub.
If I wanted to read/write DVDs then I'd need to buy an external...
again probably needing a powered USB hub. I bought a USB mouse
for it because the fingerpad is junk. The keys are hard to read. A
laptop isn't for anyone REALLY using a computer. It's limited and
not ergonomic. Though my laptop did allow for adding an extra SSD.
 I recently built a new computer for Win10. That has downsides
because any part can turn out faulty. It can get expensive. And
you have to buy the Windows license. But in my case it was about
$400. I already had a spare case and SSDs on hand. *And it's fun.*
That's not a small factor for people who are handy and like to do
this stuff.
 I now have an extremely fast, multibooting computer made from
some of the cheapest parts. I have a 27" monitor mounted on a drawer
slide, a trackball, and a steelcase office chair. I'm too old to be leaning >>> over and squinting. I see people leaning
over laptops on their living room coffee table and that just seems to
me like not properly relating to the situation. It's terrible posture.
It's a small screen. I ask them why they don't get a real computer and
they say because the laptop is portable. But they never move it!
 I could have spent $400 just for a big SSD. I could have spent 3 times >>> that for a CPU or RAM alone. But these days hardware is mature in
terms of what a desktop needs. There's no point buying the latest CPUs
or fancy RAM unless you're a teenager with their parents' charge card.
Those kids remind me of when I was in high school. The rich kids always
had amazing stereo systems... to listen to Black Sabbath. :)
 Here's what I bought at Microcenter:
Intel i5 12400 6-Core Boxed Processor with fan  $150
(My first Intel ever. I hope I don't regret it.)
MSI B760M-P Pro Intel LGA 1700 microATX Motherboard  $100
G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL16 Dual Channel RAMÂ Â $40
Thermaltake Smart Series 700 Watt 80 Plus  $60
 I had a spare case, as I mentioned. Those used to be
about $20. It's just sheet metal. I had spare SSDs. But
a 500GB can be had for about $50. (Anyone who says
they need 4TB needs to clean up their vacation photos
and stop taking selfies everywhere they go.) Ethernet,
audio and display are all on-chip. I had a spare DVD writer.
They're only $25 max, anyway. So building it was actually
very cheap, giving me a system comparable to something
3-4 times the price retail. (That box would have a lot more
RAM, and so on, but this box is already what the computer
journalists call "blazingly fast".)
 To me it's really a personal question. There are a lot of
factors that come into it. And everyone's different in terms
of priorities and needs. For older people, especially, who mostly
just check email, I'd focus more on ergonomics than power
or expandability.
Some of the newer PCs do really well on power.
In the year 2000, my 440BX system with a Tualatin in it (adapter),
it drew 150W idle and 153W flat out. Such a pig. Just a stupid room heater. >>
My year 2013 machine, it idles at 100W. Hardly impressive,
compared to the year 2000 machine. But the reason for that,
is it has 42 PCI Express lanes, and the chipset is gulping
the watts on that thing.
The machine I'm typing on, is powerful, and it idles at 36W.
This power number is measured with a P3 International Kill-O-Watt mains meter.
The 12400 should be able to beat such a number (at idle).
And some machines, if you find the "overclocker package",
there is an "ECO mode switch" on some CPU models, that
can reduce the power below what you see currently. If the
CPU has two silicon dice, ECO mode basically turns one
of them off.
You also have the option of going into the BIOS, turning
off Hyperthreading and turning off Turbo. That is an
alternative way of doing your own ECO, if you can't find
software to do it.
There have been a few motherboards, where you have
control of the core count. You can turn a six core
CPU down to a one core CPU. However, there was one
CPU which cost $1000, if you went into the BIOS and
set it to one core, the CPU was destroyed instantly :-)
Of course, it would HAVE to be the most expensive
processor, to have a flaw like that. The other settings
I mentioned, Hyperthreading and Turbo, those are safe.
The one core problem, could have been an issue with
a "hot spot" cracking the die or something. But I do not
recollect anyone doing a post-mortem. Some of the users
would likely send the CPU back to Intel for a replacement
on the warranty. My ten year old machine has that setting
and... strangely I am not interested.
Paul
Which power supply: evga supernova 850 g3 or the cooler master?
As far as I know both are compatible with the motherboard.
On 5/9/2024 12:04 PM, Dan wrote:PC.
On Thu, 9 May 2024 10:01:28 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 5/9/2024 8:25 AM, Newyana2 wrote:
On 5/8/2024 12:08 PM, GB wrote:
Very few people are capable of doing board level repairs. So, normally, repairs mean throwing away the motherboard or the CPU, or the RAM - whatever has gone wrong. The cost of the repair is very likely to be more than the entire cost of the mini
Of course, the PC the OP is proposing is much more powerful than the mini PC. But, if the power is not going to be used, I can't see the point. The proposed PC will cost more to build and will (I assume) use more power.
All of what you're saying is true. I think I could get
a Compaq at Staples for about $400. 2-3 years ago I bought
a cheap Asus laptop for about $500 that I only take out of
the closet occasionally. I bought it mostly out of curiosity
and to have something that could handle webpages that older
Firefox couldn't handle. (Though for $500 it's very limited. And
somewhat slow.)
Another advantage of pre-builts is that the hardware combos
are generally well tested, so they tend to be dependable. I've
had several hand-me-down Dells as extra computers that just
keep chugging.
On the downside is poor adaptability and hidden costs. For example,
my laptop didn't even come with an ethernet port. I had to buy
a USB adapter. If I needed more USB ports I'd need a powered hub.
If I wanted to read/write DVDs then I'd need to buy an external...
again probably needing a powered USB hub. I bought a USB mouse
for it because the fingerpad is junk. The keys are hard to read. A
laptop isn't for anyone REALLY using a computer. It's limited and
not ergonomic. Though my laptop did allow for adding an extra SSD.
I recently built a new computer for Win10. That has downsides
because any part can turn out faulty. It can get expensive. And
you have to buy the Windows license. But in my case it was about
$400. I already had a spare case and SSDs on hand. *And it's fun.*
That's not a small factor for people who are handy and like to do
this stuff.
I now have an extremely fast, multibooting computer made from
some of the cheapest parts. I have a 27" monitor mounted on a drawer
slide, a trackball, and a steelcase office chair. I'm too old to be leaning
over and squinting. I see people leaning
over laptops on their living room coffee table and that just seems to
me like not properly relating to the situation. It's terrible posture. >>>> It's a small screen. I ask them why they don't get a real computer and >>>> they say because the laptop is portable. But they never move it!
I could have spent $400 just for a big SSD. I could have spent 3 times >>>> that for a CPU or RAM alone. But these days hardware is mature in
terms of what a desktop needs. There's no point buying the latest CPUs >>>> or fancy RAM unless you're a teenager with their parents' charge card. >>>> Those kids remind me of when I was in high school. The rich kids always >>>> had amazing stereo systems... to listen to Black Sabbath. :)
Here's what I bought at Microcenter:
Intel i5 12400 6-Core Boxed Processor with fan $150
(My first Intel ever. I hope I don't regret it.)
MSI B760M-P Pro Intel LGA 1700 microATX Motherboard $100
G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 CL16 Dual Channel RAM $40
Thermaltake Smart Series 700 Watt 80 Plus $60
I had a spare case, as I mentioned. Those used to be
about $20. It's just sheet metal. I had spare SSDs. But
a 500GB can be had for about $50. (Anyone who says
they need 4TB needs to clean up their vacation photos
and stop taking selfies everywhere they go.) Ethernet,
audio and display are all on-chip. I had a spare DVD writer.
They're only $25 max, anyway. So building it was actually
very cheap, giving me a system comparable to something
3-4 times the price retail. (That box would have a lot more
RAM, and so on, but this box is already what the computer
journalists call "blazingly fast".)
To me it's really a personal question. There are a lot of
factors that come into it. And everyone's different in terms
of priorities and needs. For older people, especially, who mostly
just check email, I'd focus more on ergonomics than power
or expandability.
Some of the newer PCs do really well on power.
In the year 2000, my 440BX system with a Tualatin in it (adapter),
it drew 150W idle and 153W flat out. Such a pig. Just a stupid room heater. >>>
My year 2013 machine, it idles at 100W. Hardly impressive,
compared to the year 2000 machine. But the reason for that,
is it has 42 PCI Express lanes, and the chipset is gulping
the watts on that thing.
The machine I'm typing on, is powerful, and it idles at 36W.
This power number is measured with a P3 International Kill-O-Watt mains meter.
The 12400 should be able to beat such a number (at idle).
And some machines, if you find the "overclocker package",
there is an "ECO mode switch" on some CPU models, that
can reduce the power below what you see currently. If the
CPU has two silicon dice, ECO mode basically turns one
of them off.
You also have the option of going into the BIOS, turning
off Hyperthreading and turning off Turbo. That is an
alternative way of doing your own ECO, if you can't find
software to do it.
There have been a few motherboards, where you have
control of the core count. You can turn a six core
CPU down to a one core CPU. However, there was one
CPU which cost $1000, if you went into the BIOS and
set it to one core, the CPU was destroyed instantly :-)
Of course, it would HAVE to be the most expensive
processor, to have a flaw like that. The other settings
I mentioned, Hyperthreading and Turbo, those are safe.
The one core problem, could have been an issue with
a "hot spot" cracking the die or something. But I do not
recollect anyone doing a post-mortem. Some of the users
would likely send the CPU back to Intel for a replacement
on the warranty. My ten year old machine has that setting
and... strangely I am not interested.
Paul
Which power supply: evga supernova 850 g3 or the cooler master?
As far as I know both are compatible with the motherboard.
I have an EVGA SuperNova 650 G2 and it was fine. But it was
also $149 CDN at the time (about $100 USD). The modular SATA
cable is 21" to first connector. It's currently used in
my low power build and was previously a spare.
The JonnyGuru site used to have reviews, and I really need to find
the Page 1 of the story, to find out who made the PSUs for EVGA.
But the archives of these are unfortunately poor (not complete),
and the site has gone off the net. Sometimes telltale identifiers
are printed on the transformer inside the thing, as to who might
have made it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20181029063947/http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story3&reid=440
The second "spare" I had was a Seasonic SS620GB, which
is a bronze and not quite as efficient as the EVGA one.
That's in my current machine. I'm down to "no spares".
I would expect the CoolerMaster is a lower price one.
https://cdn.coolermaster.com/media/assets/1041/mwe-white-230v-v2-section5-1-imageleftorright.png
It's hard to get reliable genealogy.
"You have to remember only certain psu from cooler master are made by seasonic. And i think
that is the V series . The vs and g are made by some one else. So if you choosing the v series
and the same spec one from seasonic you won't see much difference besides looks and maybe cabling."
"Seasonic has very good and great power supplies. They make their own units and are high quality.
Cooler master has some very crappy power supplies , some mid range ones and some very good and
great power supplies. All of their units are made by somebody else with the CM label placed on it.
"
That's why it pays to find the Amazon entry or the Newegg entry for it and >see if any customers report early failures. The jonnyguru site used to >mention which "stable" a particular design was from. Some, you could
tell from the part number on the transformer, who made the supply. The >picture of the CoolerMaster, one of the transformers looks like they
may have placed yellow tape over the label.
I have some dead ChannelWell made ones here, as an example of
a contract manufacturer you might want to avoid. Antec used
to use Channelwell.
There was also a summary page on ATX power supplies, which
listed the "orbit" for each company, so you'd know what
keywords to look for. But the chances of finding that are slim.
Paul
Thanks Paul. I was worried that either power supplies were not
compatible with newer motherboards.
On 5/10/2024 4:48 AM, Dan wrote:
Thanks Paul. I was worried that either power supplies were not
compatible with newer motherboards.
Maybe we start backwards a bit. With something we don't need.
The power connector for the RTX4090 is here, and not well documented.
This connector might well be at its third revision, having recently
been released again with slight mods to the sense pins. This is well out
of my budget range or interest, because this connector is still melting
on people, even when the connector has been properly seated. This
might be referred to as ATX 3.0 , versus the kind of ATX 2.2 which
is more common (with PCI express 2x3 or 2x4 power connectors covered
by a 2x3+1x2 split connector). Gamers have to do their own research
on this particular item. It's beneath contempt to be spending a couple grand >on electronics and it's still not perfected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16-pin_12VHPWR_connector
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/blog/12vhpwr-what-is-it-and-why-do-you-need-it/
The specs for ATX used to be on formfactors.org (an intel-owned site),
but Intel has messed this about. This would cover a good deal about
what a builder needs to know. Modern supplies use double-conversion
(12VDC feeds a 3.3V/5V converter board) and the specs on voltage uncertainty >achieved are tighter than they used to be. There is less of a cross-loading >effect with double conversion, and heavily loading one rail, does not
cause another rail to "deviate" like it used to. The better performance
of the ATX supply comes in handy, when you connect a "picky" 22TB hard drive.
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf
( https://web.archive.org/web/20070112183223if_/http://www.formfactors.org:80/developer/specs/ATX12V_PSDG_2_2_public_br2.pdf )
*******
The author of this, is not up to ATX 3.0 .
However, there are pictures of connectors here, both old and new. The six pin Aux
for example, that's not really all that common on motherboards any more.
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
But many of the other things you should know about connectors, are present.
*******
You will plug in a 24 pin main connector.
Now, ATX started with a 20 pin connector. At a later date, they needed a
bit more 12V power for PCI Express video slots and the like. The main ATX >connector became 24 pin at that point. Of the extra four wires, one of
the wires was yellow, and that's where the extra 12V comes from.
A lot of supplies are 20+4, and you carefully join both hunks and plug the thing in
as a 24 pin connection. One of the pins on there is "PS_ON#" and grounding >that pin, turns on the supply. The motherboard normally drives PS_ON# low
to actuate it. In the EVGA box, you may find a "plastic thing" with "two shiny >pins" and that is a PS_ON# activator for testing the supply without a >motherboard connected. I have a switch and a couple of pins here I use,
for the same PSU test purposes.
The next thing to connect, is the ATX12V. It started as a 2x2 connector, with >2 yellow and 2 black wires. The yellow wires carry up to 6 amps of current. >Two yellow wires is 12 amps. Times 12V is 144 watts. This is sufficient to >cover a turbo operation of a 65W processor.
However, the motherboard will have a 2x4 connector on it. Plugging in
two 2x2 connectors would give room for 288 watts to flow. The connectors,
the nylon shells have different shapes, and the two of them are not
the same. They are pressed together, to make the 2x4 connector. This would
be how you're going to connect your system. Even though the wires have >sufficient gauge for 288 watts, when the computer is idle, the wires will be >cool, and only a few amps will flow through the four (paralleled) yellow wires.
When people make a mistake during a build, it's forgetting to plug that 2x2 or 2x4
assembly in. The motherboard is most likely to have a 2x4 and your power supply
will also have the cable to do 2x4.
That is really all yours needs at the moment.
*******
If you had a video card, it would take:
1) Low end - no additional connectors (~60W from "slot connector")
2) One 2x3 or one 2x4 (75W or 150W connector)
3) A 2x3 plus a 2x4 (225W total)
...
4) The 600W connector the RTX4090 uses (which could have been done with multiple 2x4 if they'd wanted)
The PCIe connector is a 2x4, split into a 2x3 and a 2x1 so that the connector >can be made into a 2x3 or made into a 2x4. Just because a supply has a raft >of PCIe connectors, you still have to do the arithmetic to determine if
there are enough watts for the entire load.
SATA drives have a 15 pin power connector. Pins are rated at 1 ampere each. >You could draw 12V @ 3A for example, sufficient to spin up any HDD today. >Small hard drives draw larger startup currents than large capacity drives. >This is to "make the small (boot) drive ready faster". The power footprint
in any case, seldom exceeds 12V @ 2A today, which is why the SATA connector >is fine. It might take 10-15 seconds for a 22TB hard drive to "become ready".
Older drives used the 1x4 Molex, which like other Molex supports 6A to 10A ampacity,
depending on the gauge of wire stuffed into the pin, and, how many nearest >neighbours are heating one another in the connector. If you need to make
a "distribution tree", using Molex to SATA adapter, better stays within
the current flow limits of the connector. Using a Y connector with SATA 15 pin >on either end, that's not really a good idea (it's not a good idea to chain
a lot of SATA to SATA to SATA adapters together, the pins are too weak for this).
That should be enough to get you started. With your proposed build
and your inserted NVMe SSD drive, really, only two connectors will be used, >which is the 24 pin main and the 2x4 with the 288W room for the CPU.
Some motherboards have even more than the 2x4 ATX12V assembly, as some processors
could be taking 400W in turbo for a short time. Just hook up your 2x4
and you'll be fine - you don't have a $1000 motherboard with 20 phase power, >so the motherboard cannot convert 400W and does not need a multitude
of 2x4 connectors for ATX12V as a result.
*******
Some day, computers may be run off 12V only, but I don't think we are there >yet. Any time they mess about with "where something is done", the price
seems to go up. Which is why we like them to leave well enough alone.
*******
You have not selected a backup drive yet.
A WD Black 1TB 3.5" drive, that's a conventional drive with holes in
it which mate with trays in modern computers. This is an "air breather"
hard drive -- a hepafilter filter hole equalizes HDA air pressure with >external atmospheric. Drives continue to breathe air, up to 6TB guaranteed, >and maybe occasionally someone makes an 8TB air breather. I generally
don't go over 6TB if I want the reliability of an air breather.
Drives larger than that, are filled with Helium gas, sealed, and have
a gas cover and a mechanical protection cover (*welded down*). Helium
drives have the mounting holes in a different place, for the 3.5" ones. >Helium drives also have 3.3V spin control - a computer SATA connector
with *five* wires, doesn't work with the Helium drive. You want a SATA >connector with *four* wires, as the four wire configuration does not
send 3.3V to the drive... and the drive is then allowed to spin up.
You might see an issue, if placing an 18TB to 22TB expensive hard
drive in your new PC for backups. I don't really think that's in
your budget, and this is just a warning for the future.
Other backup drive options exist. But I prefer the 3.5" drives as
it's been a long time since I've had a failure. There are portable 2.5" >drives for example. Those go up to 5TB max and 15 mm high (the drive
would not fit in a laptop because of the height, even if the
interface connector was changed to the correct type).
You could do backups to the cloud, and for your parents data purpose >(protecting just the data, not the OS installation), any number
of cheap things can be used for that much of a backup scheme.
Microsoft has their cloud drive scheme, for which some small
number of terabytes are free.
There are a lot of practical issues, with getting "parents" to make "backups". >It's not a topic where "just spending money" leads to good practice, >unfortunately. I don't think the scheme I made for "parents",
ever got used for backups. You have been warned :-) Only
techie types make backups :-)
Paul
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