What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
On 11/27/23 09:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Low level format disappeared ages ago.
Hi Carlos,
I had presumes that if you took off the quick format
option, that it did a low level format. It does
take its sweet time!
https://imgur.com/zc3T9dO.png
Am I missing something?
If so, I'd create a new use user account and
erase your old one, in the process erasing everything
that was yours. Then run it through Bleach Bit's
erase unused space option.
https://www.bleachbit.org/download/windows
Low level format disappeared ages ago.
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
On 11/27/23 09:42, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Low level format disappeared ages ago.
Hi Carlos,
I had presumes that if you took off the quick format
option, that it did a low level format. It does
take its sweet time!
https://imgur.com/zc3T9dO.png
Am I missing something?
-T
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
On the original IBM PC and clones, which used hard disks with stepper
motors, the low level format was accessed from the debug command, to run directly a routine in the firmware.
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Hello.
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> schrieb
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
What is in this time and age a lowlevel format?
Ages ago it was possible for a consumer to low level format old drives
like MFM or so.
Today drives do not allow low level format.
If you want to return a functioning drive to the seller/manufacturerer
and you are afraid they have in this time and age the time and money
to look for your Vacationpictures, then overwirte it.
HDTunepro erase with random numbers, or dariks boot and nuke, or other
tools provide the feature to overwrite the complete disk with random
or special patterns.
Even windows diskpart command 'clean' can overwrite the whole disk
(with zeros).
If you are afraid someone like NSA or so wants to see you
Vacationpictures: some tools provide further methods to overwrite
multiple times with special patterns....
But all of that takes time!
22TB 3.5 inch HDD overwrite one time= 26 to 28 hours.
On 11/27/23 10:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On the original IBM PC and clones, which used hard disks with stepper
motors, the low level format was accessed from the debug command, to
run directly a routine in the firmware.
Now that was a trip down memory lane. :-)
On 11/27/23 10:38, T wrote:
On 11/27/23 10:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On the original IBM PC and clones, which used hard disks with stepper
motors, the low level format was accessed from the debug command, to
run directly a routine in the firmware.
Now that was a trip down memory lane. :-)
Carlos,
Are you old enough to remember the 10 MB Miniscratch
drives?
Man they were loud when they failed! Fingernails
down a chalk board on steroids.
On 11/27/23 13:50, Shinji Ikari wrote:
Hello.
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> schrieb
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
What is in this time and age a lowlevel format?
Ages ago it was possible for a consumer to low level format old drives
like MFM or so.
Today drives do not allow low level format.
If you want to return a functioning drive to the seller/manufacturerer
and you are afraid they have in this time and age the time and money
to look for your Vacationpictures, then overwirte it.
HDTunepro erase with random numbers, or dariks boot and nuke, or other
tools provide the feature to overwrite the complete disk with random
or special patterns.
Even windows diskpart command 'clean' can overwrite the whole disk
(with zeros).
If you are afraid someone like NSA or so wants to see you
Vacationpictures: some tools provide further methods to overwrite
multiple times with special patterns....
But all of that takes time!
22TB 3.5 inch HDD overwrite one time= 26 to 28 hours.
If you overwrite the entire drive with zeros, everything
on it is toast. There is no way to recover it. And you
do not need to overwrite several times. If that was possible,
there would be so many error writing and reading in normal
operation, the drive would be unusable. There are no shadows
either. That is a myth. If that were even possible, the
drive manufactures would use it to build larger drives.
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.you
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
Nah, they'd just clone the drive and leave. You'd never know they were
there until you received a court appearance order for all those
instructions on how to build WMDs.
On 2023-11-28 00:37, T wrote:
On 11/27/23 13:50, Shinji Ikari wrote:
Hello.
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> schrieb
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
What is in this time and age a lowlevel format?
Ages ago it was possible for a consumer to low level format old drives
like MFM or so.
Today drives do not allow low level format.
If you want to return a functioning drive to the seller/manufacturerer
and you are afraid they have in this time and age the time and money
to look for your Vacationpictures, then overwirte it.
HDTunepro erase with random numbers, or dariks boot and nuke, or other
tools provide the feature to overwrite the complete disk with random
or special patterns.
Even windows diskpart command 'clean' can overwrite the whole disk
(with zeros).
If you are afraid someone like NSA or so wants to see you
Vacationpictures: some tools provide further methods to overwrite
multiple times with special patterns....
But all of that takes time!
22TB 3.5 inch HDD overwrite one time= 26 to 28 hours.
If you overwrite the entire drive with zeros, everything
on it is toast. There is no way to recover it. And you
do not need to overwrite several times. If that was possible,
there would be so many error writing and reading in normal
operation, the drive would be unusable. There are no shadows
either. That is a myth. If that were even possible, the
drive manufactures would use it to build larger drives.
There are suspicions that a lab could read residual magnetism on the
sides of a track, but nobody with that sort of knowledge has clarified
the doubt in any direction. So there was software what would overwrite
them several times with several patterns, just in case it was really possible.
It makes no sense on memory media like ssd, and it actually damages the
disk. Once is enough.
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.you
Then you would know they did it, and those guys sometimes also want you
not knowing they know.
Carlos,
Are you old enough to remember the 10 MB Miniscratch
drives?
Man they were loud when they failed! Fingernails
down a chalk board on steroids.
I'm guessing what you mean, but no, I never met those.
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
Just do a factory reset.
Settings, System, Recovery, Reset PC, Remove Everything, and make sure you select the Clean the drive option to ensure everything gets deleted.
Oh, and don't listen too closely to the discussions of Win10 chummies. They're far more interested in the internal philosophy of matters concerned than the practical task you've raised.
Ed
Even windows diskpart command 'clean' can overwrite the whole disk
(with zeros).
This is why some of the answers are extreme -- the participants
want to make sure there are no leaks. A Dell or HP returns
specialist, will have materials to redo the disk anyway, so
it's not a problem if it arrives completely blank. It's convenient
if it boots into something, but not absolutely necessary.
Perhaps for factory/warehouse security reasons, they
don't allow any "customer-boots" to occur, and instead
just wipe everything the same way. A customer for example,
could leave a malware on the hard drive.
There are suspicions that a lab could read residual magnetism on the sides of a track,
but nobody with that sort of knowledge has clarified the doubt in any direction.
So there was software what would overwrite them several times with several patterns,
just in case it was really possible.
2) Once you have the media prepared for a bare metal restore/factory
recover, *physically erase the drive*.
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
On 11/27/2023 2:09 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
2) Once you have the media prepared for a bare metal restore/factory recover,
*physically erase the drive*. This is important. Some
of the other respondents have mentioned some methods to do this.
A method in past years, was DBAN (single pass mode is OK).
3) Now, the disk is clean as a whistle (absolutely nothing on it).
Paul,
2) Once you have the media prepared for a bare metal restore/factory
recover, *physically erase the drive*.
And there is wher a problem slips in : the nowerdays SSD drives themselves move sectors around on the media for wear-and-tear purposes. IOW, the written data might well *not* overwrite the existing data.
Do you know what, in that case, happens with the old data ? Does it just stay there until its overwritten by a next wear-and-tear move of another sector, or does it get erased after its data is moved elsewehere ?
IOW, is it actually possible, for the common Joe User, to securely erase an SDD (without spectaculary shorthening its life I mean) ?
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
Nah, they'd just clone the drive and leave. You'd never know they were
there until you received a court appearance order for all those
instructions on how to build WMDs.
On 11/27/2023 8:45 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
There are suspicions that a lab could read residual magnetism on the sides of a track,
but nobody with that sort of knowledge has clarified the doubt in any direction.
So there was software what would overwrite them several times with several patterns,
just in case it was really possible.
Modern drives use vertical recording. If you find
an MFM picture of a vertical recording platter,
it's "black" between tracks. There is no indication
of a fringing field.
In vertical recording, there is a keeper layer below
the plating stack. The recorded bits are vertical ovals.
The keeper layer is the bottom boundary of the magnetic
circuit
On the old drives, recording was longitudinal, on the
surface of the platter. There is still a plating stack
there, but no need for a keeper layer. Longitudinal
recording had more obvious fringes.
Some of the thoughts on the topics from the old
days, are addressed here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutmann_method
The modern Secure Erase pattern, is single pass.
The drive does not do 35 passes for Secure Erase.
The time to Secure Erase a drive, is pretty well
identical to the time to write from end to end.
Secure Erase or Enhanced Secure Erase, attempt
to "write everything if they can". (The sparing
sector area is erased too.) If you wanted to emulate
35-passes, you could always execute Secure Erase
35 times, but that would be silly.
Governments with "Top Secret" class hard drives,
do not take chances, and they use a mechanical
shredder to ensure all the magnetic media is
bent to some degree.
An MFM is only good on
perfectly flat media (media which is as flat as
it was when it was written). The forces are measured
on the Z-axis, at the nanometer level. You would
think any curvature to a sample, would cause a problem.
A typical X-Y scanning area for an MFM, is 100u x 100u
(microns). There are something like 1200 MFMs, in places
like university labs. The grad students, hardly ever
seem to be sticking disk platters in their machines :-)
For one thing, there isn't a positioner with a 3.5"
displacement, inside the machine. If you wanted to
scan a platter, you'd have to add some kit to the machine.
The tempco of the platter, could easily degrade
attempts to push a platter around to a 3.5" limit.
The ATA Secure Erase should clear it all
but it is up to the manufacturer to have done a good firmware.
While this is tempting as a partial proof, it's also silly.
dd if=/dev/sda bs=221184 | sum # Would return 0000 given a chance.
# If nonzero, there is a screwup.
# But this takes too long to be a useful idea.
On 11/27/2023 2:09 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
Just do a factory reset.
Settings, System, Recovery, Reset PC, Remove Everything, and make sure you select the Clean the drive option to ensure everything gets deleted.
Oh, and don't listen too closely to the discussions of Win10 chummies. They're far more interested in the internal philosophy of matters concerned than the practical task you've raised.
Ed
Sorry Ed, this is still wrong.
You method has merit IFF:
1) You make recovery media, like the DVD set that
PCs used to make. Today, they do not typically
make those DVD sets. An alternative today, is to
make Retail media using the downloaded Microsoft ISO.
This leaves your Dell with something the staff can boot,
to prove no damage to the hardware. But the staff will
still have to do a factory-restore, using their own media.
The staff are not allowed to trust that the customer
did a good job.
2) Once you have the media prepared for a bare metal restore/factory recover,
*physically erase the drive*. This is important. Some
of the other respondents have mentioned some methods to do this.
A method in past years, was DBAN (single pass mode is OK).
3) Now, the disk is clean as a whistle (absolutely nothing on it).
Now do the factory restore, using the optical media. It is
at this point, it is now *truly* in factory state. Any white spaces
on the drive at this point, contain all-zeros, and none of your
passwords or banking info, are on the disk.
It's the white spaces on the drive, after the factory restore,
that your method misses. This is why step (2) is important.
Doing a factory on-disk only (no optical media goes into the tray), guarantees your personal details are left all over the place. Not good.
There are people who REVEL in recovering left behind customer info.
They don't generally do it for a profit motive, but
they like to make an example out of people who
don't do a good job.
Even on methods that are supposed to work, I've tested
them and GOD DAMN if they still didn't leak. I got around
200 hits in a hex editor, for my test pattern, after
a method was used that was supposed to remove the stuff,
didn't work as well as expected. That's 200 file chunks
that should not have been there.
This is why some of the answers are extreme -- the participants
want to make sure there are no leaks. A Dell or HP returns
specialist, will have materials to redo the disk anyway, so
it's not a problem if it arrives completely blank. It's convenient
if it boots into something, but not absolutely necessary.
Perhaps for factory/warehouse security reasons, they
don't allow any "customer-boots" to occur, and instead
just wipe everything the same way. A customer for example,
could leave a malware on the hard drive.
Paul
On 11/27/23 17:38, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Carlos,
Are you old enough to remember the 10 MB Miniscratch
drives?
Man they were loud when they failed! Fingernails
down a chalk board on steroids.
I'm guessing what you mean, but no, I never met those.
The dark side of MiniScratch (MiniScribe):
https://www.gillware.com/hard-drive-data-recovery/the-first-hard-drive-to-brick/
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'dNah, they'd just clone the drive and leave.
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
On 11/27/23 13:50, Shinji Ikari wrote:
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> schriebIf you overwrite the entire drive with zeros, everything
If you want to return a functioning drive to the seller/manufacturerer
and you are afraid they have in this time and age the time and money
to look for your Vacationpictures, then overwirte it.
HDTunepro erase with random numbers, or dariks boot and nuke, or other
tools provide the feature to overwrite the complete disk with random
or special patterns.
Even windows diskpart command 'clean' can overwrite the whole disk
(with zeros).
If you are afraid someone like NSA or so wants to see you
Vacationpictures: some tools provide further methods to overwrite
multiple times with special patterns....
But all of that takes time!
22TB 3.5 inch HDD overwrite one time= 26 to 28 hours.
on it is toast.
And you
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
It strikes me, having read the comments in this thread, that I'll just
simply remove the drives if I ever have to return a box. Then I'll
hammer them into complete unusability.
I remember once seeing a YouTube video where a man took a blowtorch to
an old spinner; melted all the surface coating and then buckled the disks.
Carlos,
The ATA Secure Erase should clear it all
Ah, yes. That solves the problem, just let the drive itself (and not the
OS) handle it.
but it is up to the manufacturer to have done a good firmware.
Good for whom ? :-)
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
Paul wrote:
On 11/27/2023 2:09 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
Just do a factory reset.
Settings, System, Recovery, Reset PC, Remove Everything, and make sure you select the Clean the drive option to ensure everything gets deleted.
Oh, and don't listen too closely to the discussions of Win10 chummies. They're far more interested in the internal philosophy of matters concerned than the practical task you've raised.
Ed
Sorry Ed, this is still wrong.
You method has merit IFF:
1) You make recovery media, like the DVD set that
PCs used to make. Today, they do not typically
make those DVD sets. An alternative today, is to
make Retail media using the downloaded Microsoft ISO.
This leaves your Dell with something the staff can boot,
to prove no damage to the hardware. But the staff will
still have to do a factory-restore, using their own media.
The staff are not allowed to trust that the customer
did a good job.
2) Once you have the media prepared for a bare metal restore/factory recover,
*physically erase the drive*. This is important. Some
of the other respondents have mentioned some methods to do this.
A method in past years, was DBAN (single pass mode is OK).
3) Now, the disk is clean as a whistle (absolutely nothing on it).
Now do the factory restore, using the optical media. It is
at this point, it is now *truly* in factory state. Any white spaces >> on the drive at this point, contain all-zeros, and none of your
passwords or banking info, are on the disk.
It's the white spaces on the drive, after the factory restore,
that your method misses. This is why step (2) is important.
Doing a factory on-disk only (no optical media goes into the tray),
guarantees your personal details are left all over the place. Not good.
There are people who REVEL in recovering left behind customer info.
They don't generally do it for a profit motive, but
they like to make an example out of people who
don't do a good job.
Even on methods that are supposed to work, I've tested
them and GOD DAMN if they still didn't leak. I got around
200 hits in a hex editor, for my test pattern, after
a method was used that was supposed to remove the stuff,
didn't work as well as expected. That's 200 file chunks
that should not have been there.
This is why some of the answers are extreme -- the participants
want to make sure there are no leaks. A Dell or HP returns
specialist, will have materials to redo the disk anyway, so
it's not a problem if it arrives completely blank. It's convenient
if it boots into something, but not absolutely necessary.
Perhaps for factory/warehouse security reasons, they
don't allow any "customer-boots" to occur, and instead
just wipe everything the same way. A customer for example,
could leave a malware on the hard drive.
Paul
It strikes me, having read the comments in this thread, that I'll just simply remove the drives if I ever have to return a box. Then I'll hammer them into complete unusability.
I remember once seeing a YouTube video where a man took a blowtorch to an old spinner; melted all the surface coating and then buckled the disks.
Ed
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
The "agencies" might have purpose made microscopes :-p
On 11/27/2023 2:13 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is
defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
I think he is returning a new computer after a short usage
period, because it isn't working out. The machine is still
functional, and it's a matter of sanitizing before return.
If I'm buying a new Dell, my sequence is like this:
1) Boot Macrium CD, do a Full Backup to external drive.
This records the disk in the "As Received" state.
Do this from the CD, so you do not disturb the OOBE state.
On 11/28/2023 6:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The "agencies" might have purpose made microscopes :-p
This is true.
There was a time, in silicon development, when researchers
used to paint liquid crystals on top of a silicon die,
and the electrical signals on the top of the die (not the
ones inside it) would cause the liquid crystal to change state.
And I'm told you could determine nodal states by doing that.
We cannot discount some technique which is not normally used.
What we have working on our side, is the shrinking feature
size of storage, and how much harder it is now, to examine
the smallest detail. An MFM can still read a platter, but it's
getting down to the practical limits of the MFM (perhaps 2nm or so).
The flying height now is (according to patent filings) 3nm or so.
And Hitachi, as a lab test, did try flying a head at 0nm,
and it took a month, to grind the head off it :-) They still
haven't hit a limit yet, on the size of a stored magnetic bit.
A slightly larger drive, just came out. We may eventually
reach a condition, where only a moving platter can be read,
and the instruments can't do it reliably on static specimens.
Paul
On 11/28/2023 6:59 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
Carlos,
The ATA Secure Erase should clear it all
Ah, yes. That solves the problem, just let the drive itself (and not the
OS) handle it.
but it is up to the manufacturer to have done a good firmware.
Good for whom ? :-)
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
the Enhanced Secure Erase command is the best one for that.
It should erase any "pools" you can't see.
The Secure Erase is good enough for casual security, Enhanced Secure Erase
is for your police department :-)
If you Secure Erase, examination in a Hex Editor should be clear
to the naked eye. Enhanced Secure Erase is for cases where you
think the drive may be manipulated in some way, to uncover
spares or something.
Exactly why they have two commands, is the question we should
be asking. There really should have only been one command. It's
something Yoda would have commented upon.
On 2023-11-28 02:43, VanguardLH wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
Nah, they'd just clone the drive and leave. You'd never know they were
there until you received a court appearance order for all those
instructions on how to build WMDs.
"Just clone". This operation takes HOURS.
And they have to reboot the machine to external media to use their
software, that leaves a trace.
It is not like in the movies :-p
On 11/27/2023 2:13 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is
defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
I think he is returning a new computer after a short usage
period, because it isn't working out. The machine is still
functional, and it's a matter of sanitizing before return.
If I'm buying a new Dell, my sequence is like this:
1) Boot Macrium CD, do a Full Backup to external drive.
This records the disk in the "As Received" state.
Do this from the CD, so you do not disturb the OOBE state.
2) Use the computer...
3) Thoroughly erase drive as preparation for return.
Then, restore the backup image from (1) as a convenience for Dell staff.
The erasure step, ensures white space got covered.
You can use DBAN for the erasure step if you want, or Secure Erase.
But this all assumes you did (1).
On 27/11/2023 15:45, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Best way? Dunno, that's subjective.
Darik's Boot and Nuke (DBAN)
- https://sourceforge.net/projects/dban/
Beware! It will wipe all drives it finds so disconnect or remove any that you don't need wiped.
On 2023-11-28 02:51, Paul wrote:
...
While this is tempting as a partial proof, it's also silly.
dd if=/dev/sda bs=221184 | sum # Would return 0000 given a chance.
# If nonzero, there is a screwup.
# But this takes too long to be a useful idea.
Why that particular size (bs)? :-)
I would think of using 10 megs or so.
Except with a laptop, especially one from Dell, likely there is
boot-time option to restore the laptop to its factory state. A hidden partition is used, or a full setup set of files, is provided to restore
the disk to its factory state.
On 11/28/2023 6:39 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-11-28 02:51, Paul wrote:
...
While this is tempting as a partial proof, it's also silly.
dd if=/dev/sda bs=221184 | sum # Would return 0000 given a chance.
# If nonzero, there is a screwup.
# But this takes too long to be a useful idea.
Why that particular size (bs)? :-)
I would think of using 10 megs or so.
OK, let me take the size of my daily driver.
4,000,787,030,016 <=== Even SSDs report CHS compatible sizes... Of course the
"real storage" internally, is not a weird number like that.
But you cannot write past that number.
Divide by 221184. Divides evenly.
Trying the disk in the other machine. 1TB HDD. $60 worth.
1,000,204,886,016
Divides evenly by 221184.
How long can my lucky hold up I wonder ??? WDC 24300 year 2000 IDE drive
4,311,982,080
I found an 80GB IDE. Let's try that.
80,026,361,856
So far, the sizes all divide by 221184 evenly.
How long can my luck hold out, I wonder ???
[Bookies are now taking odds]
And for the audience here, we're not talking about partition
sizes. These are whole-disk sizes, the very limits of storage.
I have a lot of disks. One that is not damaged, it probably
won't run if I test it, but it doesn't even have an IDE
interface, so that's a double-challenge to test with.
I'm sure at some point, I'm going to find a physical drive
that doesn't follow that observation.
Paul
On 11/28/2023 5:19 AM, wasbit wrote:
On 27/11/2023 15:45, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Best way? Dunno, that's subjective.
Darik's Boot and Nuke (DBAN)
- https://sourceforge.net/projects/dban/
Beware! It will wipe all drives it finds so disconnect or remove any that you don't need wiped.
And you know the funny stories from the forum.
A couple of nitwits, after using DBAN:
"I left my backup drive connected to the back of the computer.
It seems to be erased too.
Can you help me recover it?
"
They actually wrote into the forum, to ask Darik
if he could un-erase a drive. Brownie points for
trying it, I guess. Asking someone to undo it.
The reason I didn't think this was a troll, was
there are people who are that deranged :-) You can
warn them and warn them... and that's what happens.
It's not like the author of the program didn't
warn people to be careful and not leave the wrong
drives connected.
One of the claims for DBAN, is it can "erase 99 drives at the same time".
We know it erases backup drives pretty effectively.
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-11-28 02:43, VanguardLH wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
And keep in mind, if the bad guys are well funded, they'd
just breaking your house and steal your whole computer.
Nah, they'd just clone the drive and leave. You'd never know they were
there until you received a court appearance order for all those
instructions on how to build WMDs.
"Just clone". This operation takes HOURS.
And they have to reboot the machine to external media to use their
software, that leaves a trace.
It is not like in the movies :-p
Not if you have cloning hardware rather than running cloning software.
A 1 TB hard disk takes 55 minutes to clone. The hardware isn't cheap,
but then if it's the gov't they don't care about cost.
What's the reasoning for erasing all connected drives? :-?
On 2023-11-28 18:18, Paul wrote:
On 11/28/2023 6:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The "agencies" might have purpose made microscopes :-p
This is true.
There was a time, in silicon development, when researchers
used to paint liquid crystals on top of a silicon die,
and the electrical signals on the top of the die (not the
ones inside it) would cause the liquid crystal to change state.
And I'm told you could determine nodal states by doing that.
Wow.
Wait. IIRC LCD had to be fed AC current. DC would degrade (electrolisis) the materials or something of the sort.
On 2023-11-28 17:18, Paul wrote:
On 11/28/2023 6:59 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
Carlos,
The ATA Secure Erase should clear it all
Ah, yes. That solves the problem, just let the drive itself (and not the >>> OS) handle it.
but it is up to the manufacturer to have done a good firmware.
Good for whom ? :-)
Regards,
Rudy Wieser
the Enhanced Secure Erase command is the best one for that.
It should erase any "pools" you can't see.
The Secure Erase is good enough for casual security, Enhanced Secure Erase >> is for your police department :-)
If you Secure Erase, examination in a Hex Editor should be clear
to the naked eye. Enhanced Secure Erase is for cases where you
think the drive may be manipulated in some way, to uncover
spares or something.
Exactly why they have two commands, is the question we should
be asking. There really should have only been one command. It's
something Yoda would have commented upon.
<https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/62253/what-is-the-difference-between-ata-secure-erase-and-security-erase-how-can-i-en>the enhanced secure erase option is not supported by all ATA drives.»
«As quoted from this page:»
So I go to that page.
<https://tinyapps.org/docs/wipe_drives_hdparm.html>
«If your drive supports enhanced erase, you may want to substitute security-erase-enhanced for security-erase. The difference, according to the HDDerase.exe FAQ:
Secure erase overwrites all user data areas with binary zeroes. Enhanced secure erase writes predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer) to all user data areas, including sectors that are no longer in use due to reallocation. ***NOTE:
<https://web.archive.org/web/20110222015452/http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hughes/HDDEraseReadMe.txt>ready for use once the process has successfully completed.
«HDDerase.exe menu
1: Secure Erase
This uses the ATA internal drive secure erase command. It offers a higher level of secure erase than block overwriting software utilities. It can take 30 to 180 minutes depending on the drive’s capacity and speed. Drive will be left unlocked and
2: Enhanced Secure Erase (if supported by the drive)the enhanced secure erase option is not supported by all ATA drives.»
An optional ATA internal drive secure erase command. Drive will be left unlocked and ready for use once the process has successfully completed. Not all ATA drives support this erase method and if it does not, then you will not be given this option.»
...
«Q: What is the difference between secure erase and enhanced secure erase?
A: Secure erase overwrites all user data areas with binary zeroes. Enhanced secure erase writes predetermined data patterns (set by the manufacturer) to all user data areas, including sectors that are no longer in use due to reallocation. ***NOTE:
...data may reside in this area. DCO is an acronym for Device Configuration Overlay. Similar to a HPA, a DCO represents a portion at the end of the hard drive that is not user addressable. Both these areas are NOT overwritten when a windows format,
«Q: What are HPA and DCO areas?
A: HPA is an acronym for Host Protected Area. A HPA is a portion of sectors at the end of the hard drive that can not be addressed by the user. Normally this area is used to store hard drive diagnostic or recovery type software, but any type of
***Note: In our testing some drives overwrite the HPA when a secure
erase is performed, but most drives do not erase this area when a secure erase isperformed. CMRR contends that HPA erasure is not mandatory because user data is not stored there; however HDDerase offers erasure of both areas for maximum erase security.
Q: Can hdderase.exe erase the host protected area (HPA) or the device configuration overlay area (DCO)?respectively. A subsequent secure erase will then erase the entire drive. Declining leaves the HPA and/or DCO intact, and a subsequent secure erase may or may not erase over the HPA/DCO, depending on the manufacturer. CMRR Secure Erase protocol
A: Yes. A message will appear if a HPA and/or DCO exist(s) on the selected drive and prompt the user if he/she wants the areas to be erased. Accepting removes the HPA and/or DCO via set max address (ext) and device configuration restore commands,
***Note: the device configuration restore command disables ANY settings previously made by a device configuration set command--thereby placing the drive in its factory default state.»
I also found out that some software sets the security password when doing this:enhanced secure erase in /var/log/daemon.log (and system.log) then searching the UDisks source code for "user password", which uncovered it in udiskslinuxdriveata.c as "xxxx". Thus, hdparm --security-disable xxxx /dev/sdx will unlock the drive.»
«The GNOME Disks app offers an ATA Secure Erase option in the Format Disk menu. But if it fails to complete, how to unlock the drive? The password does not appear to be documented; happily, Babiz tracked it down by finding udisksd[1206] Commencing ATA
Wow. It is the first time I found this information, and it was hidden in some ancient software...
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
https://www.bleachbit.org/download/windows
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
There are lots of wipe tools. Example: killdisk, which you can run from
a bootable disc to eliminate an OS on the drive or any access to it from
an OS to prevent locked files.
https://www.killdisk.com/eraser.html
If no part of the active OS is using the hard drive, you can use other
wipe tools that run under that OS, like CCleaner's Drive Wiper or
Heidi's Eraser.
https://www.ccleaner.com/
https://eraser.heidi.ie/
Some drives have a firmware-based wipe function (ATA Secure Erase orI thought that was how low-level formatting (used to?) work. Shows
NVMe Secure Erase), but you need a tool that sends the command to the
drive. Often the tool is proprietary and brand specific, but the
operation is performed within the firmware on the drive.
Governments with "Top Secret" class hard drives,
do not take chances, and they use a mechanical
shredder to ensure all the magnetic media is
bent to some degree. An MFM is only good on
perfectly flat media (media which is as flat as
it was when it was written). The forces are measured
on the Z-axis, at the nanometer level. You would
think any curvature to a sample, would cause a problem.
A typical X-Y scanning area for an MFM, is 100u x 100u
(microns). There are something like 1200 MFMs, in places
like university labs. The grad students, hardly ever
seem to be sticking disk platters in their machines :-)
On 11/27/2023 10:45 AM, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
Boot Windows installer DVD.
Or, make the System Repair disc shown here, if you
don't have an Installer DVD handy. This is a 300MB or
so boot.wim which boots and gives access to Command Prompt.
https://i.pcmag.com/imagery/articles/039d02w2s9yfZVJntmbZVW9-51.fit_lim.size_1072x.png
A Macrium Rescue CD also has its own command window and
you could do it from there.
In Troubleshooting, find Command Prompt. AFAIK it runs as Admin.
diskpart
list disk
select disk 0 <=== Make absolutely sure you have the correct disk. NO UNDO.
clean <=== this only removes partition table related stuff.
Very fast. Not forensically clean. Not recommended.
clean all <=== Will write 1TB of zeros to a 1TB drive, end-to-end.
All partition tables destroyed. All partitions destroyed.
Not recoverable, as it is all zeroes.
exit <=== It might take an hour or two, before you can enter this.
You would need a hex editor at this point, to prove it's clean.
While this is tempting as a partial proof, it's also silly.
dd if=/dev/sda bs=221184 | sum # Would return 0000 given a chance.
# If nonzero, there is a screwup.
# But this takes too long to be a useful idea.
Paul
There is a used computer store a few towns away. Customers
that have purchased them, have found (and showed me) all
kinds of sensitive documents on them. And everyone around
has heard the stories, so no one trusts them.
On 11/27/2023 2:13 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
I think he is returning a new computer after a short usage
period, because it isn't working out. The machine is still
functional, and it's a matter of sanitizing before return.
If I'm buying a new Dell, my sequence is like this:
1) Boot Macrium CD, do a Full Backup to external drive.
This records the disk in the "As Received" state.
Do this from the CD, so you do not disturb the OOBE state.
2) Use the computer...
3) Thoroughly erase drive as preparation for return.
Then, restore the backup image from (1) as a convenience for Dell staff.
The erasure step, ensures white space got covered.
You can use DBAN for the erasure step if you want, or Secure Erase.
But this all assumes you did (1).
Paul
In article <c3jqp86luezt.dlg@v.nguard.lh>, V@nguard.LH says...
"jason_warren@ieee.org" <jason_warren@ieee.org> wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
I'm confused. If you are returning a hard drive to Dell, doesn't that
mean it is defective, and why you are returning it? If the drive is
defective, likely you cannot completely wipe the drive.
The drive began showing bad sectors a few weeks ago - noted in
Windows System log. The number kept increasing.
Dell sent a new drive (under warranty) but I have to send
the old one back. There is some mildly sensitive info on it
that I want to get rid of.
There are lots of wipe tools. Example: killdisk, which you can run from
a bootable disc to eliminate an OS on the drive or any access to it from
an OS to prevent locked files.
https://www.killdisk.com/eraser.html
If no part of the active OS is using the hard drive, you can use other
wipe tools that run under that OS, like CCleaner's Drive Wiper or
Heidi's Eraser.
I have an drive cradle that I can attach
to my other commputer, hence no need to saw
of the OS limb I'm sitting on :)
https://www.ccleaner.com/
https://eraser.heidi.ie/
I suspect I could run either of them on the other
machine with the old drive in the cradle, no?
Some drives have a firmware-based wipe function (ATA Secure Erase orI thought that was how low-level formatting (used to?) work. Shows
NVMe Secure Erase), but you need a tool that sends the command to the
drive. Often the tool is proprietary and brand specific, but the
operation is performed within the firmware on the drive.
how far out of touch I am!
Thanks for you help.
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 27 Nov 2023 09:33:24 -0800, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
https://www.bleachbit.org/download/windows
I note that this has been translated to Canadian English. That should
be a great help to people like hubops.
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:45:20 -0500, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3Xa1h_RqM>
On 11/27/2023 7:45 AM, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
Will a low-level format do it or is there something better>
The drive has five partitions.
Thanks!
In linux terminal, do:
1) determine the linux device name for the drive using: fdisk -l
Note: it will be something like: /dev/sda, /dev/nvme0n1
2) type the following line in terminal:
sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdX bs=4096
where sdX is the device name obtained in step 1).
3) hit Enter key. Then wait (a long time) for the prompt to display again.
s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3Xa1h_RqM>
Way too expensive. Just drill out the retaining screws, and use a
welding torch on the platters.
Of course, I'm sure Dell wants back the drive in the same condition as reported by the user, not a bunch of shredded bits.
s|b <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 10:45:20 -0500, jason_warren@ieee.org wrote:
What's the best way to clean everything off a hard drive
before I return it to Dell?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb3Xa1h_RqM>
Way too expensive. Just drill out the retaining screws, and use a
welding torch on the platters.
Of course, I'm sure Dell wants back the drive in the same condition as reported by the user, not a bunch of shredded bits. If the OP doesn't
return the old drive, he might have to pay for the new one. If Dell
didn't do a parts exchange, but a simple parts replace, they probably
want back the old drive to perform failure analysis to help them
determine if they can improve their manufacturing process. Without the
drive to inspect, they have no feedback on why the drive failed.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (0 / 16) |
| Uptime: | 129:37:48 |
| Calls: | 6,663 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,212 |
| Messages: | 5,335,299 |
