XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

When you understand both these two items, then you understand the subject.
1. A release is NOT just the patches alone - it's EVERYTHING in OS
2. Only the Apple releases are monolithic - they include everything

Android, Linux & Windows do NOT release as a monolith.
As such, they're continually updated, upgraded and hotfix patched.

Once you understand this, then you can _begin_ to understand why it's a lie when people tell you Apple release support is longer than Windows, Linux or Android.

It's not.

Why not?
Read this...

Apple's description of UPDATES, UPGRADES & RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE releases

Once you understand what a release entails, you'll realize the truth.
Apple's full release support is (by far!) the shortest in the industry.

https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/
"The support document notes that only the latest releases provide full protection from security vulnerabilities. "Because of dependency on architecture and system changes to any current version of macOS (for
example, macOS 13), not all known security issues are addressed in previous versions (for example, macOS 12)," the Apple document says. Essentially,
this means that the security updates Apple issues to older operating system versions are not fully protected. Using that logic, the iOS 15.7.1 update
may leave security vulnerabilities unaddressed that have been patched in
the iOS 16.1 updates. This means that although Apple issues security
updates to older operating systems, users should only expect their devices
to be secure during the typical five to six-year software upgrade support window."

https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases
"Old versions of operating systems of Apple devices do not get complete security patches. The emphasis in the document is that there is a
difference between Upgrade and Update, at least in the Apple lexicon."

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/
"Despite providing security updates for multiple versions of macOS and iOS
at any given time, Apple says that only devices running the most recent
major operating system versions should expect to be fully protected.
Throughout the document, Apple uses "upgrade" to refer to major OS releases that can add big new features and user interface changes and "update" to
refer to smaller but more frequently released patches that mostly fix bugs
and address security problems (though these can occasionally enable minor feature additions or improvements as well). So updating from iOS 15 to iOS
16 or macOS 12 to macOS 13 is an upgrade. Updating from iOS 16.0 to 16.1 or macOS 12.5 to 12.6 or 12.6.1 is an update. In other words, while Apple will provide security-related updates for older versions of its operating
systems, only the most recent upgrades will receive updates for every
security problem Apple knows about."

Note that a release is more than a kernel.
A lot more.

Most people who "think" Apple releases are supported longer than, oh, say, Windows or Android, are wrong because they don't understand how Windows and Android releases their software. Mainly, neither is a monoslab like Apple.

Windows is supported for so many years, the machine will fall apart before
the support ends, and even then you get a free upgrade to the next version.

So is Android, although the support varies for Android from a mere five
years to much longer than that for the underlying components (which is why
the Apple people can't understand that Android is supported for over 10
years due to the fact that the _components_ are supported for that long).

The problem is Apple-only owners don't understand what a "release" entails. It's not just the kernel. It's more than that. A _lot_ more than that.

Only was iOS a monoslab. No other operating system. Only iOS.

As a direct result of that monoslab, iOS is ten times more exploited. https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

But things are improving for chipping away at the Apple monoslab.

While Apple's iOS is _still_ mostly a monoslab (e.g., the messenger is a
key component integral with the monoslab only on iOS - and no other OS),
the new-to-iOS-16 abiltity for a "Rapid Security Response" is good news!

UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch: https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/

RSR patches:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224

UPGRADES:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222

Note that there is more to a release than just the bugfixes (e.g., Android
is updated every day over the Google Play Services update mechanisms), but
the bugfixes are important to be rolled out as soon as they possibly can.

Windows runs those bufixes every "patch tuesday" for example, not waiting
for a monoslab to be created (which would take three to six months to do).

Hence, I congratulate Apple for joining the rest of the world in adding
this new ability to reduce the monolithic slab a tiny bit, with the RSRs.

RSR: (only available in iOS 16 which is no longer a single monolithic slab) RSR: (Only available in macOS 13 which never really was a single monoslab).

Apple's description of UPDATES, UPGRADES & RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE releases

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

On 7/15/2023 3:51 PM, Scratch wrote:

When you understand both these two items, then you understand the subject.
1. A release is NOT just the patches alone - it's EVERYTHING in OS
2. Only the Apple releases are monolithic - they include everything

Android, Linux & Windows do NOT release as a monolith.
As such, they're continually updated, upgraded and hotfix patched.

Once you understand this, then you can _begin_ to understand why it's a
lie when people tell you Apple release support is longer than Windows,
Linux or Android.

It's not.

Why not?
Read this...
Apple's description of UPDATES, UPGRADES & RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE releases

Once you understand what a release entails, you'll realize the truth.
Apple's full release support is (by far!) the shortest in the industry.

https://screenrant.com/apple-product-security-update-lifespan/
"The support document notes that only the latest releases provide full protection from security vulnerabilities. "Because of dependency on architecture and system changes to any current version of macOS (for
example, macOS 13), not all known security issues are addressed in previous versions (for example, macOS 12)," the Apple document says. Essentially,
this means that the security updates Apple issues to older operating system versions are not fully protected. Using that logic, the iOS 15.7.1 update
may leave security vulnerabilities unaddressed that have been patched in
the iOS 16.1 updates. This means that although Apple issues security
updates to older operating systems, users should only expect their devices
to be secure during the typical five to six-year software upgrade support window."

https://hothardware.com/news/apple-admits-only-fully-patches-security-flaws-in-latest-os-releases
"Old versions of operating systems of Apple devices do not get complete security patches. The emphasis in the document is that there is a
difference between Upgrade and Update, at least in the Apple lexicon."

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/10/apple-clarifies-security-update-policy-only-the-latest-oses-are-fully-patched/
"Despite providing security updates for multiple versions of macOS and iOS
at any given time, Apple says that only devices running the most recent
major operating system versions should expect to be fully protected. Throughout the document, Apple uses "upgrade" to refer to major OS releases that can add big new features and user interface changes and "update" to refer to smaller but more frequently released patches that mostly fix bugs and address security problems (though these can occasionally enable minor feature additions or improvements as well). So updating from iOS 15 to iOS
16 or macOS 12 to macOS 13 is an upgrade. Updating from iOS 16.0 to 16.1 or macOS 12.5 to 12.6 or 12.6.1 is an update. In other words, while Apple will provide security-related updates for older versions of its operating
systems, only the most recent upgrades will receive updates for every security problem Apple knows about."

Note that a release is more than a kernel.
A lot more.

Most people who "think" Apple releases are supported longer than, oh,
say, Windows or Android, are wrong because they don't understand how
Windows and Android releases their software. Mainly, neither is a
monoslab like Apple.

Windows is supported for so many years, the machine will fall apart
before the support ends, and even then you get a free upgrade to the
next version.

So is Android, although the support varies for Android from a mere five
years to much longer than that for the underlying components (which is
why the Apple people can't understand that Android is supported for over
10 years due to the fact that the _components_ are supported for that
long).

The problem is Apple-only owners don't understand what a "release" entails. It's not just the kernel. It's more than that. A _lot_ more than that.

Only was iOS a monoslab. No other operating system. Only iOS.

As a direct result of that monoslab, iOS is ten times more exploited. https://www.cisa.gov/known-exploited-vulnerabilities-catalog

But things are improving for chipping away at the Apple monoslab.

While Apple's iOS is _still_ mostly a monoslab (e.g., the messenger is a
key component integral with the monoslab only on iOS - and no other OS),
the new-to-iOS-16 abiltity for a "Rapid Security Response" is good news!

UPDATE monoslab vs UPGRADE monoslab vs RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE patch: https://support.apple.com/guide/deployment/about-software-updates-depc4c80847a/

RSR patches:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201224

UPGRADES:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222
Note that there is more to a release than just the bugfixes (e.g.,
Android is updated every day over the Google Play Services update mechanisms), but the bugfixes are important to be rolled out as soon as
they possibly can.

Windows runs those bufixes every "patch tuesday" for example, not
waiting for a monoslab to be created (which would take three to six
months to do).

Hence, I congratulate Apple for joining the rest of the world in adding
this new ability to reduce the monolithic slab a tiny bit, with the RSRs.

RSR: (only available in iOS 16 which is no longer a single monolithic slab) RSR: (Only available in macOS 13 which never really was a single monoslab).

Apple's description of UPDATES, UPGRADES & RAPID SECURITY RESPONSE releases

I thought Apple's updates and etc go only so far as their hardware is supported, since you are paying for the hardware and software to work in harmony. Since hardware is as much as software for apple, once hardware
is deprecated apple tells you go buy new thing.

Microsoft loves backwards compatibility because thats their modus
operandi. If they break BC then people will leave and use a VM like VMware.

Android releases are kind of tied to the hardware yet not really so you
can support android longer than apple's rotten os.

Linux is linux and as such can be supported indefinitely if you want to.

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

On 18/7/2023, josh allen wrote:

I thought Apple's updates and etc go only so far as their hardware is supported...

Apple's stated policy is to fully support only one release.
Period.

Not two. One. (See the links in the original post for proof.)

If you look at macOS, that's macOS 13. Not 12. Not 11. Just 13.
When macOS 14 is released, then macOS 13 will lose full support.

Instantly.

Likewise with iOS 16. When iOS 17 is released later this summer, then any
phone that can't install iOS 17 is no longer fully supported for bugfixes.

But it's worse than that.
Much worse than that.

Because what is an operating system to Apple is utterly completely
DIFFERENT than what is an operating system to Windows, Linux or Android.

since you are paying for the hardware and software to work in
harmony. Since hardware is as much as software for apple, once hardware
is deprecated apple tells you go buy new thing.

The problem with comparing operating system support between platforms is compounded by the fact most people don't know what an operating system is.

An operating system, such as Windows, covers something like thousands of components, most of which are released almost completely independently of
each other - an example being the default web browser used by the customer.

Likewise with Android and with Linux.
It's thousands upon thousands of independent components.

Each is released on its own time schedule and with its own end of life plan where, let's be clear, Windows 10 has had a rather long support lifecycle.

It's completely different with the monoslab that Apple calls an operating system, which is the worst for iOS and not as monolithically bad for macOS.

With iOS, when the next release comes out later this year, EVERYTHING NOT
ON the one supported release - is instantly no longer supported.

With Apple, the release goes kaput in a single day.
Instantly.

In the blink of an eye, the full support for the prior release disappears.
Read the references in the original post if you don't believe that.

Microsoft loves backwards compatibility because thats their modus
operandi. If they break BC then people will leave and use a VM like VMware.

One thing you have to say for Microsoft is the tools that you use, whether
from Microsoft or from a third party, tend to work on "most" Windows
versions.

Same with Linux. Same with Android.

Not so with Apple releases.
The tools tend to die, suddenly, and instantly.

For example, Safari dies with the release.
Internet Exploder, for anyone actually using it, doesn't.

Android releases are kind of tied to the hardware yet not really so you
can support android longer than apple's rotten os.

Android is essentially supported forever, much like Windows is, when you consider that key components of Android are updated completely outside the realm of the operating system version.

For example, Chrome comes with the operating system, but it is released and patched completely independently of the operating system.

Not so with Safari.

Safari support dies the instant the operating system is no longer
supported.

Again, the reason is the Apple operating systems are monolithic slabs.
Android, Windows, and Linux are not.

Android has scores of components which are updated forever (in terms of
there is no specified End of Life for them) just like Linux has.

Read up on what used to be called "project mainline", which Google has
renamed so many times I'm not sure what the current name for it is. https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/

Linux is linux and as such can be supported indefinitely if you want to.

As I said, people have to understand that an Apple operating system is a monoslab while every other operating system is not a monoslab.

So the comparison of what dies when has to take into account that
EVERYTHING dies with Apple the instant that support ends for the OS, while
very little actually dies for all the other operating systems because
they're not monoslabs.

An example is hardware drivers. On Apple, they all die at once. On the same day. Just like that. Poof. Gone.

With Windows, Linux and even Android, the drivers are updated INDEPENDENTLY
of the operating system. Look up Project Treble where the Qualcomm firmware
is updated independently of the Android operating system, for example.

Here's a search to Project Mainline (which changed names a few times).
https://www.google.com/search?q=android+project+mainline

And here's a search link to Project Treble.
https://www.google.com/search?q=android+project+treble

The point is that Apple operating systems have the shortest support life
when you consider that the entire operating system is a monoslab and that monoslab essentially loses support in a single day. Everything. Poof. Gone.

No other operating system is updated that way. Just Apple. https://www.xda-developers.com/android-project-mainline-modules-explanation/

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

Am 15.07.2023 schrieb Scratch <scratchnsniff@tornado.net>:

Once you understand this, then you can _begin_ to understand why it's
a lie when people tell you Apple release support is longer than
Windows, Linux or Android.

Android depends on the vendor of the device and most vendors stop
supporting their devices after 1-2 years. New Android version cannot be installed most times, until the users install themselves
vendor-independent versions of Android.

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"Scratch" <scratchnsniff@tornado.net> wrote

| When you understand both these two items, then you understand the subject.
| 1. A release is NOT just the patches alone - it's EVERYTHING in OS
| 2. Only the Apple releases are monolithic - they include everything
|
| Android, Linux & Windows do NOT release as a monolith.
| As such, they're continually updated, upgraded and hotfix patched.
|

Any truth in that is not really related. It's a matter
of business model. Apple's customer base is wealthy
consumers, many of whom are groupies, most of
whom are happy for an excuse to buy something new.
Microsoft's customer base is corporate. They sell to
individuals only to maintain their monopoly and for
use as a free beta testing army. If MS business customers
can't run their in-house software, they won't update.
That's why VB6 runtimes from 1998 are still pre-installed
on Windows and Apple software won't run on the version
from a couple of years ago.

Apple also exerts more control over software. So even if
Mac developers wanted to offer support, they often can't.
Apple don't deal with corporate customers generally. And
there's really no such thing as in-house, custom software.

In short, Apple's business model is to break often, add 6
more cameras, have slaves in China build it, then charge through
the nose for the result. The AppleSeeds then line up outside
the Apple Church to get the new product. Go figure. The MS model
is to sell updates as often as possible, but to include backward
compatibility for both software and hardware, so that they can
get big corporations to pay through the nose for thouands of
new copies of Windows.

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote

Nobody uses the Microsoft Store.

My last MS store fun was trying out their new Windows Android emulator
but was somewhat disappointed. Maybe it'll get better in the future.

The MS Store is an attempt to try to copy Apple's highly lucrative choice-limitation marketing to force you to get all apps from them.

Last I checked, Genymotion had the best free Windows Android emulation, although BlueStacks emulation freeware wasn't too far behind Genymotion.

Run a search in the Android newsgroup for emulation to find discussions. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android

Neither ChromeOS nor iOS allow anything useful outside the store.

I'm looking at a button in settings on my new Chromebook tablet. If I
push it I get the "Linux development environment: Run Linux tools,
editors, and IDEs on your Chromebook" Should I push it? Will I be
outside the Store... 8-O

It's surprising that ChromeOS copied Apple's limiting strategy at all.
When I think of ChromeOS I think of only a slight improvement on iOS.

They make their money by purposefully & drastically limiting your choices.
It's why Apple is one of the most profitable companies in the world.

You can run most linux distros inside of Android without being rooted.

Many discussions are also on that topic in the archives. https://groups.google.com/g/alt.os.linux

Here's a tutorial for starters. https://computingforgeeks.com/how-to-run-linux-on-android-devices-using-andronix-app/

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In article <u9618i$2sje6$1@paganini.bofh.team>, Newyana2 <Newyana2@invalid.nospam> wrote:

and Apple software won't run on the version
from a couple of years ago.

yes it will.

mac intel apps from 2006 can run perfectly fine on new apple silicon
macs released in 2023, with no end in sight. 68k mac apps from 1984
could run on powerpc macs in 2005, just before the intel transition in
2006, which is just short of *20* *years*.

Apple also exerts more control over software. So even if
Mac developers wanted to offer support, they often can't.

false. apple has no control over what level of support developers
choose to provide.

Apple don't deal with corporate customers generally.

oh yes they do.

And
there's really no such thing as in-house, custom software.

oh yes there is, and quite a bit of it too.

stop pretending to know about apple.

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 08:40:34 -0400, Newyana2 wrote:

| When you understand both these two items, then you understand the subject. >| 1. A release is NOT just the patches alone - it's EVERYTHING in OS
| 2. Only the Apple releases are monolithic - they include everything
|
| Android, Linux & Windows do NOT release as a monolith.
| As such, they're continually updated, upgraded and hotfix patched.
|

Any truth in that is not really related. It's a matter
of business model. Apple's customer base is wealthy
consumers, many of whom are groupies, most of
whom are happy for an excuse to buy something new.
Microsoft's customer base is corporate. They sell to
individuals only to maintain their monopoly and for
use as a free beta testing army. If MS business customers
can't run their in-house software, they won't update.
That's why VB6 runtimes from 1998 are still pre-installed
on Windows and Apple software won't run on the version
from a couple of years ago.

Apple also exerts more control over software. So even if
Mac developers wanted to offer support, they often can't.
Apple don't deal with corporate customers generally. And
there's really no such thing as in-house, custom software.

In short, Apple's business model is to break often, add 6
more cameras, have slaves in China build it, then charge through
the nose for the result. The AppleSeeds then line up outside
the Apple Church to get the new product. Go figure. The MS model
is to sell updates as often as possible, but to include backward compatibility for both software and hardware, so that they can
get big corporations to pay through the nose for thouands of
new copies of Windows.

While all that above is true, Mayayana, the main difference in terms of operating system support is in two key areas when we compare them.

1. Apple OS support is a monolith, Windows/Linux/Android is not.
2. Apple only fully supports a single OS monolith - not two.

And, in addition, with respect to who defines the end of life date...
3. Most of Window/Android/Linux support is from _outside_ the mothership.

On point 1, Windows/Android/Linux are not monoliths.

There is support for device drivers outside the mothership support, and
there is support for critical apps (such as the default web browser)
outside the mothership, and most importantly, the support for many of the components (especially in the case of Android & Linux) is outside that of
the mothership (most of which are open sourced, so support is lengthy).

On point 2, Windows/Android/Linux motherships support multiple operating systems at once, and more to the point (delving into point 3), most of the support for the key components of the operating system come from _outside_
the motherships (for example, the default web browser - and H/W drivers).

Given that an operating system is not a single file from a single
mothership, the support for every operating system (except for Apple
operating systems) is decidedly far longer than most people think it is.

For Apple operating systems, the full support for the entire monolithic
slab dies the moment Apple releases the next operating system,
(which is about one year later in most situations).

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XPost: alt.os.linux, comp.mobile.android

Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> wrote

Once you understand this, then you can _begin_ to understand why it's
a lie when people tell you Apple release support is longer than
Windows, Linux or Android.

Android depends on the vendor of the device and most vendors stop
supporting their devices after 1-2 years. New Android version cannot be installed most times, until the users install themselves
vendor-independent versions of Android.

Most people are stupid. They don't have a clue what an operating system is. https://www.esper.io/blog/what-is-project-mainline

You're a smart guy but you got it wrong. Dead wrong. And I know why.

You never read any of the articles that you could have read about Android. https://www.google.com/search?q=android+project+mainline

I know you're a smart guy though, so what you got wrong is really you
didn't look at the entire OS picture. You only looked at one tiny piece.

People who have never read the news think an OS is only one tiny piece.
That one tiny piece has a specific EOL date.

And that's that.
It's easy for people to think that way.

But it's wrong.
Dead wrong.

But don't feel bad.
Most people get it wrong.

For any operating system NOT an Apple OS, there is no single EOL date for
all the critical components typically considered part of the OS.

People who say what you said have clearly never understood what's in an OS. https://www.hexnode.com/blogs/android-project-mainline-everything-you-need-to-know/

And, no single company providing that support.
Most support, for example, for Android, lasts forever (see note in sig).

Most people think an operating system is only one teeny tiny piece.
H3ence, like you, most people think an OS has a single EOL date.

That's only for iOS. And macOS.
No other operating system has a single EOL date (except Apple systems).

Windows drivers support, for example, last longer than the operating system support, right? So does Windows browser support, right? And Windows
software support (most of which doesn't even come from the mother ship).

Android as of version 10 has been broken into literally hundreds of
separate pieces, most of which are supported forever (in terms of not only
do they not have any EOL dates, but they're all open sourced just in case,
ten or twenty years from now, Google stops supporting those pieces).

This has been discussed at length many times, but most people insist on thinking that an operating system is only one small teeny tiny file.

Look up project mainline & treble if you want to see how Android is
supported as of Android 10 and above. Almost the entire operating system is supported outside both the OEM manufacturers and the cellular carriers.

Almost all of Android is updated asynchronously forever over Google Play.
--
Forever, in this context, means not only that there is no end of life date,
but also typically the support time period is in decades, not years and
even more importantly almost all of this software is purposefully open
sourced so the support "can" last forever - which is mostly linux/android.

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On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 10:31:39 -0400, Wally J
<walterjones@invalid.nospam> wrote:

It's surprising that ChromeOS copied Apple's limiting strategy at all.
When I think of ChromeOS I think of only a slight improvement on iOS.

That`s wrong. ChromeOS has a subsystem for Android-Apps and a
Linux-subsystem (Debian) for linux programs. So it is quite open.

I have switched a few machines from Windows 7 and 10 to ChromeOS Flex,
and I`m using programs for Linux there, e. g. Firefox, Remmina-RDP,
KeepassXC, Signal, Geany, Krusader, Openshot.

And "Chrome Remote Desktop" is a great, easy and free tool to access
and remote control other machines with Linux, OSX or Windows (or
ChromeOS).

Regards

M.

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