I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
[quoted text muted]I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office Administrator.
Image backup each comp to a separate USB drive
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically,
the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office Administrator.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LANImage backup each comp to a separate USB drive
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop, >>> and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know >>> there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically, the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
You can schedule backups with almost any backup software. I know
Macrium Reflect Free will do it.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office Administrator.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LANImage backup each comp to a separate USB drive
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop, >>> and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know >>> there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically,
the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:30:38 -0400, knuttle wrote:
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
[quoted text muted]I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office
Image backup each comp to a separate USB drive
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
Administrator.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically,
the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
You can schedule backups with almost any backup software. I know
Macrium Reflect Free will do it.
Drives are so cheap that I would just attach one drive to each
computer. That will automatically give you a drive letter too, though
since you want something automatic a drive letter seems superfluous.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
In article <u29j9c$11lel$1@dont-email.me>, knuttle wrote...
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
It's an interesting puzzle. Because of the 'privacy' issue, you need - >crucially - a third storage device which will respect the distinction between >user accounts. That rules out a dumb device, which wouldn't support the >necessary security settings at the folder/file level.
In article <u29j9c$11lel$1@dont-email.me>, knuttle wrote...
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
It's an interesting puzzle. Because of the 'privacy' issue, you need - crucially - a third storage device which will respect the distinction between user accounts. That rules out a dumb device, which wouldn't support the necessary security settings at the folder/file level.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN<snip>
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:18:56 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Drives are so cheap that I would just attach one drive to each
computer. That will automatically give you a drive letter too, though
since you want something automatic a drive letter seems superfluous.
Yes, drives are cheap, these days, but...
I think I've said it here more than once before, but In my opinion,
having a backup drive permanently attached to a computer (whether
internal or external) is a bad idea. That's because it leaves you
susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of
the most common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning
strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.
knuttle wrote:
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church
LAN backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the
desktop, and backup the desktop to a direct connected external
drive. This solution may not work as the minister may have private
information he would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their
computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. Â
I Know there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it
as simple as possible.
Does the church have an internet connection?
As a general rule, your backup should be:
• Regular
• Frequent
• Fully automatic
• Completed in a reasonable time-frame, for example overnight
• Off-site
• Testable
• Tested occasionally
• Can be read without special software
A NAS box on the LAN, with an automatic backup proces running on each
PC would be a start.
If an internet connection is available, a separate backup process can
use a cloud backup service.
With the appropriate BIOS settings the PCs can be started at a
specified time (perhaps midnight) to run the backup processes -
thereby avoiding the need for the users to do anything.
If an internet connection is available the backup processes can report progress by email to you, so you know they are working correctly.
On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:57:59 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:18:56 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Drives are so cheap that I would just attach one drive to each
computer. That will automatically give you a drive letter too, though
since you want something automatic a drive letter seems superfluous.
Yes, drives are cheap, these days, but...
I think I've said it here more than once before, but In my opinion,
having a backup drive permanently attached to a computer (whether
internal or external) is a bad idea. That's because it leaves you
susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of
the most common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning
strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.
I think your point is well taken. I wasn't really thinking much about >security in a church office -- foolish of me, I realize.
Perhaps I laid too much stress on the OP's requirement for something >automatic. Coupled with the users' lack of computer savvy, that
suggested individual backup disks with a scheduled backup program, on
the theory that some backups are better than no backups. Paul
suggested a NAS, and that seems like a reasonable option if the OP is >willing to set things up for them, absolutely including high-quality
surge suppression.
I suppose cloud storage has the advantages that it's immune to local >lightning strikes and local equipment thieves. I just shy away from >recommending cloud solutions to anything because "there is no cloud:
it's just someone else's computer." I may be overly leery of the
cloud, but that's my thinking.
On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:25:08 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:57:59 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:18:56 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Drives are so cheap that I would just attach one drive to each
computer. That will automatically give you a drive letter too, though
since you want something automatic a drive letter seems superfluous.
Yes, drives are cheap, these days, but...
I think I've said it here more than once before, but In my opinion,
having a backup drive permanently attached to a computer (whether
internal or external) is a bad idea. That's because it leaves you
susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of
the most common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning
strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.
I think your point is well taken. I wasn't really thinking much about
security in a church office -- foolish of me, I realize.
Perhaps I laid too much stress on the OP's requirement for something
automatic. Coupled with the users' lack of computer savvy, that
suggested individual backup disks with a scheduled backup program, on
the theory that some backups are better than no backups. Paul
suggested a NAS, and that seems like a reasonable option if the OP is
willing to set things up for them, absolutely including high-quality
surge suppression.
I suppose cloud storage has the advantages that it's immune to local
lightning strikes and local equipment thieves. I just shy away from
recommending cloud solutions to anything because "there is no cloud:
it's just someone else's computer." I may be overly leery of the
cloud, but that's my thinking.
I understand your leeriness. Many people feel the same way, although I
am less leery of it than you. One advantage of many cloud backup
companies is that the backing up is done automatically and doesn't
require remembering to do it.
I personally do several kinds of backups:
One automatic cloud-based kind
One weekly non-automatic backup to an external drive, not permanently connected, using Bart.
Two weekly non-automatic backups to two internal drives, using Bart. I
do this despite my warnings about permanently connected backup drives
because it's not my main backup and because I had the drives lying
around, not needed for anything else.
For my most important data file, my Quicken data, almost every day
backup to one of two thumb drives, alternating between them.
Yes, there's a lot of redundancy in what I do, but to me, there's
almost no downside to it, and more redundancy makes me feel safer.
On 4/26/2023 7:19 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:25:08 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 07:57:59 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 19:18:56 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
Drives are so cheap that I would just attach one drive to each
computer. That will automatically give you a drive letter too, though >>>>> since you want something automatic a drive letter seems superfluous.
Yes, drives are cheap, these days, but...
I think I've said it here more than once before, but In my opinion,
having a backup drive permanently attached to a computer (whether
internal or external) is a bad idea. That's because it leaves you
susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of >>>> the most common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby lightning
strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.
I think your point is well taken. I wasn't really thinking much about
security in a church office -- foolish of me, I realize.
Perhaps I laid too much stress on the OP's requirement for something
automatic. Coupled with the users' lack of computer savvy, that
suggested individual backup disks with a scheduled backup program, on
the theory that some backups are better than no backups. Paul
suggested a NAS, and that seems like a reasonable option if the OP is
willing to set things up for them, absolutely including high-quality
surge suppression.
I suppose cloud storage has the advantages that it's immune to local
lightning strikes and local equipment thieves. I just shy away from
recommending cloud solutions to anything because "there is no cloud:
it's just someone else's computer." I may be overly leery of the
cloud, but that's my thinking.
I understand your leeriness. Many people feel the same way, although I
am less leery of it than you. One advantage of many cloud backup
companies is that the backing up is done automatically and doesn't
require remembering to do it.
I personally do several kinds of backups:
One automatic cloud-based kind
One weekly non-automatic backup to an external drive, not permanently
connected, using Bart.
Two weekly non-automatic backups to two internal drives, using Bart. I
do this despite my warnings about permanently connected backup drives
because it's not my main backup and because I had the drives lying
around, not needed for anything else.
For my most important data file, my Quicken data, almost every day
backup to one of two thumb drives, alternating between them.
Yes, there's a lot of redundancy in what I do, but to me, there's
almost no downside to it, and more redundancy makes me feel safer.
You need a pretty good broadband connection, if you expect to back up >everything to the Cloud as such (20GB OS image).
If you just do the Documents folder, that could be more
manageable. The free OneDrive is 5GB capacity.
On 2023-04-26 01:30, knuttle wrote:
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office Administrator.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN >>>> backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.Image backup each comp to a separate USB drive
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop, >>>> and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers. >>>>
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple >>>> as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically, the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
Caveat: a ransom attack could pervert both computers and the online backups.
knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up. There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution. I Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site
backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff, you or they?
That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for ease of *use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite
storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
On 4/26/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop, >>> and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know >>> there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple
as possible.
  As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site
backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
  Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff, you or >> they?
  That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for ease of >> *use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite
storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing
management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
The hope is, the NAS will spin down the drives, using power
management commands over SATA, during periods of inactivity.
Whether the previous storage lawsuit allows this, I do not know.
Power management was ruined by the settlement of that lawsuit.
On 4/26/2023 8:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-26 01:30, knuttle wrote:The best part about topics like this, is not knowing how they work.
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN >>>>> backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.Image backup each comp to a separate USB drive
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the
desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he >>>>> would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you >>>>> connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers. >>>>>
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive
letter in Windows Explorer. It should be a simple,
inexpensive solution. I Know there LAN connected Raid type
of devices, but want to keep it as simple as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
Administrator.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data
automatically, the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
Caveat: a ransom attack could pervert both computers and the online
backups.
I share your skepticism about backups as a cure for ransomware
(because of the delay-type ransomware, which infects backups
and waits before springing an attack), but this does not stop companies
from pretending they are "bulletproof".
https://www.macrium.com/ransomware-protection
On 2023-04-27 21:57, Paul wrote:
On 4/26/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN >>>> backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop, >>>> and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers. >>>>
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in
Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as simple >>>> as possible.
  As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site
backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
  Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff, you or >>> they?
  That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for ease of >>> *use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite
storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing
management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
The hope is, the NAS will spin down the drives, using power
management commands over SATA, during periods of inactivity.
Whether the previous storage lawsuit allows this, I do not know.
Power management was ruined by the settlement of that lawsuit.
Did I read lawsuit? :-o
What was that?
On 2023-04-27 21:48, Paul wrote:
On 4/26/2023 8:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-26 01:30, knuttle wrote:The best part about topics like this, is not knowing how they work.
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office Administrator.
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN >>>>>> backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.Image backup each comp to a separate USB drive
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This >>>>>> solution may not work as the minister may have private information he >>>>>> would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external >>>>>> drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you >>>>>> connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be >>>>>> attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers. >>>>>>
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive
letter in Windows Explorer. It should be a simple,
inexpensive solution.  I Know there LAN connected Raid type
of devices, but want to keep it as simple as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator.
You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data automatically, the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
Caveat: a ransom attack could pervert both computers and the online backups.
I share your skepticism about backups as a cure for ransomware
(because of the delay-type ransomware, which infects backups
and waits before springing an attack), but this does not stop companies
from pretending they are "bulletproof".
https://www.macrium.com/ransomware-protection
I was also thinking that if the NAS server is accessible as windows shared folder, any virus or trojan can directly infect that share.
I do not have a solution for that. If I had to do it, I would try to avoid shares and investigate rsync or some other protocol over ssh.
On 4/27/2023 5:21 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-27 21:57, Paul wrote:
On 4/26/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on the Church LAN >>>>> backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the
desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This
solution may not work as the minister may have private information he >>>>> would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external
drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that you >>>>> connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be
attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their computers. >>>>>
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive letter in >>>>> Windows Explorer. It should be a simple, inexpensive solution.  I >>>>> Know
there LAN connected Raid type of devices, but want to keep it as
simple
as possible.
  As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site >>>> backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
  Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff,
you or
they?
  That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for
ease of
*use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite
storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing >>>> management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
The hope is, the NAS will spin down the drives, using power
management commands over SATA, during periods of inactivity.
Whether the previous storage lawsuit allows this, I do not know.
Power management was ruined by the settlement of that lawsuit.
Did I read lawsuit? :-o
What was that?
Someone had a patent on power management,
and sued Seagate. After that date, features were
removed from drives (rather than pay a licensing fee
per drive sold).
With AAM, you could turn down the seek time (after a fashion),
and the drive would make less noise. Seek uses a kind of
elevator algorithm, where deceleration is "critically damped"
and there is no overshoot. That's what I like about hard
drive engineering, is "nothing is approximate, everything is perfect" :-) They could have made seek more aggressive, burned more power,
but then the settling time for the overshoot, kills the fun.
https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4555
  "The problem is that Seagate no longer supports AAM
   (due to lawsuit with Convolve and MIT over some patent rights)"
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/technology/companies/29seagate.html
Now, while that was for AAM, there seemed to be some effect on
other functions. We'd need someone like Franc Zakbar to give us
a rundown (a former hard drive guy who used to hang out in USENET).
I don't know all the details, except to say every time I look
at HDTune "features" tab, hard drives are always "a mess"
when it comes to tick boxes. No two alike. As a result, if
someone asks me "what features can I expect", I've got no
ability at all to predict. There's one byte value you
can send I think, that makes the drive save more and more
power, but then, it doesn't work. And this is not an accident.
And it's related to one of the lawsuits. The other lawsuits
were over things like the "Gigabyte/Gibibyte definition".
You can save power by reducing spin from 7200RPM to 5600RPM,
then the next level would be to park the heads, and the
level after that is zero RPM. All these features may have
worked at one time.
On 4/27/2023 5:18 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-27 21:48, Paul wrote:
On 4/26/2023 8:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-26 01:30, knuttle wrote:The best part about topics like this, is not knowing how they work.
On 4/25/2023 6:29 PM, Sjouke Burry wrote:
On 26.04.23 0:13, knuttle wrote:I am afraid this is beyond the technical abilities of the Office
I have been asked to assist in getting two computers on theImage backup each comp to a separate USB drive
Church LAN
backed up.  There are only two computers on the LAN.
I know I could do it as on my home LAN; sync the laptop to the >>>>>>> desktop,
and backup the desktop to a direct connected external drive. This >>>>>>> solution may not work as the minister may have private
information he
would not want on the Office Administrators computer.
The ideal solution would be to give the user access to the external >>>>>>> drive through a inexpensive device like the old print server that >>>>>>> you
connected to an Ethernet port on the LAN router.
Can some one recommend a solution where the external drive could be >>>>>>> attached to the LAN so the the two user could back up their
computers.
Ideally thy would access the drive would be through a Drive
letter in Windows Explorer. It should be a simple,
inexpensive solution.  I Know there LAN connected Raid type
of devices, but want to keep it as simple as possible.
and leave those at the desk of the preacher and the administrator. >>>>>> You might even use two USB drives for each as added safety.
Non of this forces you to examine (secret?) data.
Administrator.
I am looking for some thing that will protect their data
automatically, the OS can always be reinstalled from MS>
Caveat: a ransom attack could pervert both computers and the online
backups.
I share your skepticism about backups as a cure for ransomware
(because of the delay-type ransomware, which infects backups
and waits before springing an attack), but this does not stop companies
from pretending they are "bulletproof".
https://www.macrium.com/ransomware-protection
I was also thinking that if the NAS server is accessible as windows
shared folder, any virus or trojan can directly infect that share.
I do not have a solution for that. If I had to do it, I would try to
avoid shares and investigate rsync or some other protocol over ssh.
Over the months, the only solution I could think of,
was a "tape drive emulator" where "rewind" is missing :-)
On 4/26/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff, you or they?
That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for ease of *use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
The hope is, the NAS will spin down the drives, using power
management commands over SATA, during periods of inactivity.
Whether the previous storage lawsuit allows this, I do not know.
Power management was ruined by the settlement of that lawsuit.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
On 4/26/2023 11:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
As has been mentioned, there's the issue of on-site *and* off-site
backup and the issue of (some) protection against ransomware, so
"simple" is out of the question.
Also, who is going to do the ongoing management of this stuff, you or >>> they?
That said, for our two-computer home network, I use a NAS (for ease of >>> *use*, *not* for ease of *setup*) *and* portable USB HDDs for offsite
storage and (some) protection against ransomware. But I do the ongoing
management (a NAS is basically a computer system, so it needs
management).
The hope is, the NAS will spin down the drives, using power
management commands over SATA, during periods of inactivity.
Whether the previous storage lawsuit allows this, I do not know.
Power management was ruined by the settlement of that lawsuit.
Yes, my Synology NAS has 'HDD Hibernation' ("The internal hard disk(s)
and the external SATA disk will hibernate after being inactive for the configured time period."), but I do not see what protection that offers, because the NAS+disk(s) will wake up again when its Network Shares are accessed from one of the two computers.
Or did you have some other point in mind (than protection (against ransomware))?
[...]
You can reduce wear on the drives, and save 12W of electricity,
if spinning down a pair of disks. If you had a WD Blue or a
DiamondMax SKU of drive, something not intended for continuous
spinning, then putting the drives away may make them last
longer. You still have a limit of 300,000 or 600,000
head load/unloads. The ramp is made of plastic for all
drives as far as I know. the heads slide up the ramp.
The heads will endure shock better (300G), if the
heads are unloaded and sitting on the ramp.
No, it has nothing to do with ransomware. Just attempting
to extend the life of the drives, or reduce the appearance
of poor power economics. The chipset in the NAS, still
uses electricity, so there's still a tiny effect on
the power bill.
On 29 Apr 2023 18:02:16 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:
OK, got you. FWIW, my Synology NAS has a WD Red drive, but I still
spin it down after 20 minutes of inactivity, because - like in the
scenario of the OP - it's mainly used for backup, which occurs only a
few times per day.
Can I ask why you use a NAS for backup, rather than just a simple,
much less expensive, external drive, as I do? What are the advantages
of what you do?
OK, got you. FWIW, my Synology NAS has a WD Red drive, but I still
spin it down after 20 minutes of inactivity, because - like in the
scenario of the OP - it's mainly used for backup, which occurs only a
few times per day.
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On 29 Apr 2023 18:02:16 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:
OK, got you. FWIW, my Synology NAS has a WD Red drive, but I still
spin it down after 20 minutes of inactivity, because - like in the
scenario of the OP - it's mainly used for backup, which occurs only a
few times per day.
Can I ask why you use a NAS for backup, rather than just a simple,
much less expensive, external drive, as I do? What are the advantages
of what you do?
As you probably remember, we (SWMBO and I) use laptops, so having
'loose' drives 'hanging' from the laptop is more akward than for a
desktop (where it could be in the desktop case or stationary near it).
The connection to the NAS is via Wi-Fi, so no wires.
As to "much less expensive", that's a common 'misconception'.
For example, at the time (September 2017, so (disk) prices of *that*
time!) the NAS was 89 Euro (currently the US$ and the Euro are about
equal), so not all that much money. The 4TB WD Red drive for in the NAS
was 149 Euro. So for 238 Euro, I have a NAS with 4TB storage (again: in
*Sep 2017*). (And European prices tend to be higher than US prices.)
Because it's a NAS, it has many other functions, too many to
summarize. The extra functions I mainly use is as a Media Server for
photos, music and video to stream to the TV or/and sound system.
And, as mentioned, I *also* have portable external USB drives, which I
rotate between onsite and offsite.
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On 29 Apr 2023 18:02:16 GMT, Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid>
wrote:
OK, got you. FWIW, my Synology NAS has a WD Red drive, but I still
spin it down after 20 minutes of inactivity, because - like in the
scenario of the OP - it's mainly used for backup, which occurs only a
few times per day.
Can I ask why you use a NAS for backup, rather than just a simple,
much less expensive, external drive, as I do? What are the advantages
of what you do?
As you probably remember, we (SWMBO and I) use laptops, so having
'loose' drives 'hanging' from the laptop is more akward than for a
desktop (where it could be in the desktop case or stationary near it).
The connection to the NAS is via Wi-Fi, so no wires.
As to "much less expensive", that's a common 'misconception'.
For example, at the time (September 2017, so (disk) prices of *that* time!) the NAS was 89 Euro (currently the US$ and the Euro are about
equal), so not all that much money. The 4TB WD Red drive for in the NAS
was 149 Euro. So for 238 Euro, I have a NAS with 4TB storage (again: in
*Sep 2017*). (And European prices tend to be higher than US prices.)
Because it's a NAS, it has many other functions, too many to
summarize. The extra functions I mainly use is as a Media Server for
photos, music and video to stream to the TV or/and sound system.
And, as mentioned, I *also* have portable external USB drives, which I rotate between onsite and offsite.
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