For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a >desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.
Hibernation >https://www.howtogeek.com/868748/how-to-disable-hibernation-on-windows-10/
For a laptop, most come with SSDs nowadays, don't they? So I can see less
of a need for (unrelated) fast startup features, which always confused me.
Fast Startup >https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-10/
For whatever reason, my two desktops (different brands, models & CPUs)
won't reliably recover from when they go to sleep. Yet my laptops, with
SSDs not only recover quite nicely, but they boot up within seconds.
I'm not sure what the difference is between hibernation & fast startup.
Whatever the cause, my solution was to turn off both hibernation and the >un-related fast startup. Neither of my desktops has hung since, but the >drawback, of course, is that cold startup takes a minute or two longer now.
What you're calling "fast startup" refers to the OS hibernating its
own core components, when you "shut down" the OS, doing a *complete*
shut down only when rebooting.
Thank you for that summary of how hibernation differs from fast startup. >That's interesting that the "fast startup" is a "hibernation" of sorts.
I didn't name it "fast startup" though. Microsoft did. >https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/fast-startup-how-to-disable-if-its-causing/f9a4a2d0-104d-42dc-9946-4a2e13c0a348
I never understood what the difference was, but this is what that says.
"Fast Startup is a hybrid combination of a cold startup and a
wake-from-hibernation startup. Frequently, kernel-mode device drivers need
to distinguish Fast Startups from wake-from-hibernation so that their
devices behave as users expect."
"During a cold startup, the boot loader constructs a kernel memory image
by loading the sections of the Windows kernel file into memory and linking >them. Next, the kernel configures core system functions, enumerates the >devices attached to the computer, and loads drivers for them."
"In contrast, a fast startup simply loads the hibernation file
(Hiberfil.sys) into memory to restore the previously saved image of the >Windows kernel and loaded drivers. A fast startup tends to take
significantly less time than a cold startup."
"More information (and much more in-depth) here."
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/distinguishing-fast-startup-from-wake-from-hibernation
The hibernation *feature*, on the other hand, *also* writes the entire
contents of a Windows session to storage, to be resumed, and
completely shuts off power - I use it, with my roomy 1 TB NVMe drive
(i.e. large enough that I don't worry too much about the wear and
tear, since it's not squeezing the temporary writes of data into a
small space, to be reused over and over), when I want to turn off the
computer, when I leave the house for a relatively long period of time.
It's very confusing to me why they have both hibernation & fast startup.
Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to know what >caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup & the hibernation >on the two desktops & the issue has never happened since I disabled both.
Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?
Both features are worth using, for me, but obviously, it depends on
having reliable hardware, including RAM and the storage device,
because errors will lead to an unstable situation, possibly as you've
described with the machines you disabled fast startup on. Would be
good to know what caused the issue, of course, but at least you've
worked around it.
Also if you dual boot and want to access the Windows file system from
another operating system, you have to disable one or both of them anyway. >https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/432869/cant-mount-dual-boot-partition-windows-is-hibernated
I never really understood whether you really needed to disable both >hibernation and fast startup to share data in a dual boot situation.
It gets confusing real fast. >https://askubuntu.com/questions/1070689/is-dual-boot-windows-10-with-hibernation-and-ubunutu-18-04-dangerous
What you're calling "fast startup" refers to the OS hibernating its
own core components, when you "shut down" the OS, doing a *complete*
shut down only when rebooting.
The hibernation *feature*, on the other hand, *also* writes the entire contents of a Windows session to storage, to be resumed, and
completely shuts off power - I use it, with my roomy 1 TB NVMe drive
(i.e. large enough that I don't worry too much about the wear and
tear, since it's not squeezing the temporary writes of data into a
small space, to be reused over and over), when I want to turn off the computer, when I leave the house for a relatively long period of time.
Both features are worth using, for me, but obviously, it depends on
having reliable hardware, including RAM and the storage device,
because errors will lead to an unstable situation, possibly as you've described with the machines you disabled fast startup on. Would be
good to know what caused the issue, of course, but at least you've
worked around it.
I am going to piss off the Windows Fanbois here.
Fast Start up causes all kinds of issues with my
customers. I routinely disable it. It is a magic
way to fix a lot of strange problems. The last
one was artifacts on spreadsheets. "But I rebooted
and shutdown? What did you do different!?!?!"
The main benefit of Fast Startup, is the your
computer was never really shutoff and it recovers
quickly.
The down side is that Windows IS NOT a stable operating
system and starts getting weird after about three days
or so. And Fast Start makes sure that whatever problems
you had before ha ha shutting down, you get right back.
If you do a real shutdown of your computer every night
and get a real reboot, you will be hard pressed to
find Windows instabilities. This is Windows Self
Defense 101. (This is not an issue for Mac and
Linux users.)
I see Fast Start as a marketing scheme. See how fast
our piece of s*** , oops, wonderful most compatible
ever operating system boots up! We fixed the slows!!
M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.
For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.
Hibernation https://www.howtogeek.com/868748/how-to-disable-hibernation-on-windows-10/
For a laptop, most come with SSDs nowadays, don't they? So I can see less
of a need for (unrelated) fast startup features, which always confused me.
Fast Startup https://www.howtogeek.com/856514/how-to-disable-fast-startup-on-windows-10/
For whatever reason, my two desktops (different brands, models & CPUs)
won't reliably recover from when they go to sleep. Yet my laptops, with
SSDs not only recover quite nicely, but they boot up within seconds.
I'm not sure what the difference is between hibernation & fast startup.
Whatever the cause, my solution was to turn off both hibernation and the un-related fast startup. Neither of my desktops has hung since, but the drawback, of course, is that cold startup takes a minute or two longer now.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am going to piss off the Windows Fanbois here.
Fast Start up causes all kinds of issues with my
customers. I routinely disable it. It is a magic
way to fix a lot of strange problems. The last
one was artifacts on spreadsheets. "But I rebooted
and shutdown? What did you do different!?!?!"
The main benefit of Fast Startup, is the your
computer was never really shutoff and it recovers
quickly.
The down side is that Windows IS NOT a stable operating
system and starts getting weird after about three days
or so. And Fast Start makes sure that whatever problems
you had before ha ha shutting down, you get right back.
If you do a real shutdown of your computer every night
and get a real reboot, you will be hard pressed to
find Windows instabilities. This is Windows Self
Defense 101. (This is not an issue for Mac and
Linux users.)
I see Fast Start as a marketing scheme. See how fast
our piece of s*** , oops, wonderful most compatible
ever operating system boots up! We fixed the slows!!
M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.
OK, but you also think the 2020 U.S. presidential election was stolen,
so ...
[There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this, but it
wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
of the time.]
M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.
[There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this [Windows fast startup], but it
wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
of the time.]
"Can be"? It is a tragic unethical feature. And
none of my customers that I disable it on, which
is all of them, even notice the extra five to
ten seconds to boot up. They are very, very
happy with the result.
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:01:34 -0700, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, T wrote:
M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.
So... Cockweasels? I like the sound of that.
Remember "hybrid" sleep in Windows 7? Boy, that was a jolly good mess.
When I finally figured out what they had done, I turned that right off.
MS keeps doing these things where things that used to work reliably now
only half-work in unexpected ways that aren't actually the things.
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[There obviously *can* be issues, with a feature like this [Windows fast startup], but it
wouldn't be in the released product, if it didn't work at least *most*
of the time.]
"Can be"? It is a tragic unethical feature. And
none of my customers that I disable it on, which
is all of them, even notice the extra five to
ten seconds to boot up. They are very, very
happy with the result.
I guess some people's computers are just cheap OEM crapware, I mean, I assemble desktops, I don't use third rate parts.
I guess some people's computers are just cheap OEM crapware, I mean, I assemble desktops, I don't use third rate parts.
For a laptop, I can see why hibernation is useful but maybe not for a desktop, and certainly not for my (old & quirky) Windows 10 desktops.
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
Zaghadka wrote:
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows
desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
I have on occasion had a situation where I had something going on that I >didn't want, or was unable, to save it, but I wanted to power my machine >completely off. In that situation, hibernation was the only option I had.
On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 18:01:34 -0700, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, T wrote:
M$ marking departments is what happens when you cross
a cock roach with a weasel.
So... Cockweasels? I like the sound of that.
Remember "hybrid" sleep in Windows 7? Boy, that was a jolly good mess.
When I finally figured out what they had done, I turned that right off.
MS keeps doing these things where things that used to work reliably now
only half-work in unexpected ways that aren't actually the things.
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 05:29:43 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Auric__ wrote:
Zaghadka wrote:
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows >>> desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely >>> no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
I have on occasion had a situation where I had something going on that I >>didn't want, or was unable, to save it, but I wanted to power my machine >>completely off. In that situation, hibernation was the only option I had.
I'm not sure what that use case means, but I guess so? One valid use for hibernation noted.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture ofHmmmm. It worked.
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on spreadsheets. >>
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
I came up with that theory on my own, I actually would've thought
Microsoft would obfuscate it, because of their dependence on OEMs to
sell and support their platform (and then, of course, MS can push
Office on their customers, which is where the real money is for them,
unless one is like me, and pays the retail price for Windows). I have >genuinely perceived that self-assembling computers, from high quality
parts, makes Windows more reliable. It depends, of course, on the
exact parts an OEM uses, but in general, they tend to cut corners, in
my experience.
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 07:26:14 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
I came up with that theory on my own, I actually would've thought
Microsoft would obfuscate it, because of their dependence on OEMs to
sell and support their platform (and then, of course, MS can push
Office on their customers, which is where the real money is for them, >>unless one is like me, and pays the retail price for Windows). I have >>genuinely perceived that self-assembling computers, from high quality >>parts, makes Windows more reliable. It depends, of course, on the
exact parts an OEM uses, but in general, they tend to cut corners, in
my experience.
In general, yes, but not always. It depends on the OEM, and with some
OEMs, which model it is. It's often possible to buy the same
specifications in different models at different prices, and the more >expensive models are usually better and last longer.
I'm not using an OEM computer now, but over the years I often did. I
always avoided the cheapest models, and my experience has usually been
good.
My current computer is custom built, with all components individually >selected. Will it last longer than an OEM computer with similar specs? >Probably (at least I hope so). Will it last twice as long as an OEM
computer with similar specs at half the price? I don't know, but as
far as I'm concerned, that's the real question. If it doesn't, it
wasn't a good buy, and buying an OEM computer and replacing it when it
died would have been a better value.
One of the reasons OEM Computers are less expensive than custom-built
ones is that the OEM can buy components in bulk and thereby save
money. That affects the price they are sold for, and not necessarily
their quality.
But a good point about custom building is that's usually easier to
replace individual components because an original one has died or
because better performance is possible if you do.
Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to know what caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup & the hibernation on the two desktops & the issue has never happened since I disabled both.
Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 07:26:14 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
I came up with that theory on my own, I actually would've thought >>>Microsoft would obfuscate it, because of their dependence on OEMs to
sell and support their platform (and then, of course, MS can push
Office on their customers, which is where the real money is for them, >>>unless one is like me, and pays the retail price for Windows). I have >>>genuinely perceived that self-assembling computers, from high quality >>>parts, makes Windows more reliable. It depends, of course, on the
exact parts an OEM uses, but in general, they tend to cut corners, in
my experience.
In general, yes, but not always. It depends on the OEM, and with some
OEMs, which model it is. It's often possible to buy the same >>specifications in different models at different prices, and the more >>expensive models are usually better and last longer.
I'm not using an OEM computer now, but over the years I often did. I
always avoided the cheapest models, and my experience has usually been >>good.
My current computer is custom built, with all components individually >>selected. Will it last longer than an OEM computer with similar specs? >>Probably (at least I hope so). Will it last twice as long as an OEM >>computer with similar specs at half the price? I don't know, but as
far as I'm concerned, that's the real question. If it doesn't, it
wasn't a good buy, and buying an OEM computer and replacing it when it
died would have been a better value.
One of the reasons OEM Computers are less expensive than custom-built
ones is that the OEM can buy components in bulk and thereby save
money. That affects the price they are sold for, and not necessarily
their quality.
But a good point about custom building is that's usually easier to
replace individual components because an original one has died or
because better performance is possible if you do.
I really could not buy a pre-assembled desktop. OEMs are, largely,
junk,
custom builders are pricey.
The only, satisfactory, way, is to
do it oneself.
Remember "hybrid" sleep in Windows 7? Boy, that was a jolly good mess.
When I finally figured out what they had done, I turned that right off.
MS keeps doing these things where things that used to work reliably now
only half-work in unexpected ways that aren't actually the things.
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely
no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
I remember business users, including grown men, almost in tears because
they walked away from their W7 machines and their machines timed out and
went into hibernation which crashed on re-entry destroying everything
the user had been working on.
I disabled the feature and ordered them to SAVE,
SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, especially before walking away.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I remember business users, including grown men, almost in tears because
they walked away from their W7 machines and their machines timed out and
went into hibernation which crashed on re-entry destroying everything
the user had been working on.
I disabled the feature and ordered them to SAVE,
SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, especially before walking away.
I'm not (read: no longer) a "business user" and use laptops instead of
desktops (I assume "their W7 machines" are desktops), but in well over
two decades, I *never* lost anything due to hibernating/de-hibernating.
So I side with Winston: There's some other problem and turning off
hibernation just masks that other problem.
Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
[...]
Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to know what >> caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup & the hibernation >> on the two desktops & the issue has never happened since I disabled both.
Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?
As you probably will more often use hibernation than do a (fast)
startup, it's probably best to try to just switch on hibernation and
switch off fast startup.
As you say you sometimes dual boot, you can turn off hibernation just before you boot from the other OS.
Now you know everything about hibernation and fast startup, it's time
to learn about 'Adaptive hibernate' and 'Modern Standby', both of which
your laptop probably has! :-)
'Adaptive hibernate overview' <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/customize/power-settings/adaptive-hibernate>
'Modern Standby vs S3' <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby-vs-s3>
Bottom line: 'The system never - well, hardly ever - sleeps!' :-)
[...]
Zaghadka wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 05:29:43 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Auric__ wrote:
Zaghadka wrote:I'm not sure what that use case means, but I guess so? One valid use for
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows >>>> desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely >>>> no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
I have on occasion had a situation where I had something going on that I >>> didn't want, or was unable, to save it, but I wanted to power my machine >>> completely off. In that situation, hibernation was the only option I had. >>
hibernation noted.
On an alternate note, I have mentioned in the past (elsewhere) that I used to use virtual machines as my primary "workstation", so to speak, and with those you can (usually) save the state of the VM, which is very similar to hibernation, without having a gigantic HIBERFIL.SYS taking up loads of drive space. Yes, the saved state still takes up space -- generally more than HIBERFIL.SYS, in fact -- but it's "out" on the host machine instead of the emulated drive, and it usually gets deleted once you resume the VM.
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
On 4/22/2023 11:42 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net> wrote:
[...]
Whatever caused the desktops to hang, I didn't have the tools to
know what caused the issue so I just disabled both the fast startup
& the hibernation on the two desktops & the issue has never
happened since I disabled both.
Maybe I could have gotten away with disabling only one and not the other?
As you probably will more often use hibernation than do a (fast) startup, it's probably best to try to just switch on hibernation and
switch off fast startup.
As you say you sometimes dual boot, you can turn off hibernation just before you boot from the other OS.
Now you know everything about hibernation and fast startup, it's time
to learn about 'Adaptive hibernate' and 'Modern Standby', both of which your laptop probably has! :-)
'Adaptive hibernate overview' <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/customize/power-settings/adaptive-hibernate>
'Modern Standby vs S3' <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby-vs-s3>
Bottom line: 'The system never - well, hardly ever - sleeps!' :-)
[...]
I would not say that any pseudo schemes, are that widespread (S0ic).
S0ic smushes together the things at the S0 end of the scale.
A "Microsoft Surface" product, is the most likely to demonstrate such behavior.
I don't know if any other OEM has gone head-over-heels with this.
Since hibernate is also used for "emergencies", that's one you
cannot afford to abuse. When the laptop battery reads "0",
you stop drawing power from it. You don't run off and check
Facebook every five minutes, when the battery is officially "dead".
The battery management IC, will refuse to recharge a pack which is
too low below the "0" point. As the battery at that point is already
damaged by reverse biasing.
Zaghadka wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 05:29:43 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Auric__ wrote:
Zaghadka wrote:I'm not sure what that use case means, but I guess so? One valid use for
Turning off hibernation is virtually the first thing I do on any windows >>>> desktop. Hibernation on a desktop just takes up disk space and allows
fast start to work. Two birds: one stone. In my book, there is absolutely >>>> no good reason to hibernate a modern desktop.
I have on occasion had a situation where I had something going on that I >>> didn't want, or was unable, to save it, but I wanted to power my machine >>> completely off. In that situation, hibernation was the only option I had. >>
hibernation noted.
On an alternate note, I have mentioned in the past (elsewhere) that I used to use virtual machines as my primary "workstation", so to speak, and with those you can (usually) save the state of the VM, which is very similar to hibernation, without having a gigantic HIBERFIL.SYS taking up loads of drive space. Yes, the saved state still takes up space -- generally more than HIBERFIL.SYS, in fact -- but it's "out" on the host machine instead of the emulated drive, and it usually gets deleted once you resume the VM.
Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 07:26:14 -0400, Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
I came up with that theory on my own, I actually would've thought
Microsoft would obfuscate it, because of their dependence on OEMs to
sell and support their platform (and then, of course, MS can push
Office on their customers, which is where the real money is for them,
unless one is like me, and pays the retail price for Windows). I have
genuinely perceived that self-assembling computers, from high quality
parts, makes Windows more reliable. It depends, of course, on the
exact parts an OEM uses, but in general, they tend to cut corners, in
my experience.
In general, yes, but not always. It depends on the OEM, and with some
OEMs, which model it is. It's often possible to buy the same
specifications in different models at different prices, and the more
expensive models are usually better and last longer.
I'm not using an OEM computer now, but over the years I often did. I
always avoided the cheapest models, and my experience has usually been
good.
My current computer is custom built, with all components individually
selected. Will it last longer than an OEM computer with similar specs?
Probably (at least I hope so). Will it last twice as long as an OEM
computer with similar specs at half the price? I don't know, but as
far as I'm concerned, that's the real question. If it doesn't, it
wasn't a good buy, and buying an OEM computer and replacing it when it
died would have been a better value.
One of the reasons OEM Computers are less expensive than custom-built
ones is that the OEM can buy components in bulk and thereby save
money. That affects the price they are sold for, and not necessarily
their quality.
But a good point about custom building is that's usually easier to
replace individual components because an original one has died or
because better performance is possible if you do.
I really could not buy a pre-assembled desktop. OEMs are, largely,
junk, custom builders are pricey. The only, satisfactory, way, is to
do it oneself.
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on
spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
That is fair, honestly, to the extent that this issue really is
Microsoft's doing - but I have to wonder, is it poor hardware and/or
drivers, or OEM crapware, preinstalled on the device, and not
something in Windows itself? Because I've been running Win11 since
day one, I upgraded from 10, never looking back, and the only real
issue I've encountered, was that weird bug, where the systray had
lingering popup descriptions, when the mouse hovered over it, which
was fixed in the first few months of 11's existence. And, MS had not recommended people upgrade, until Windows Update specifically offered
it, to a device, I willingly chose to do the immediate upgrade, upon
its public release, because of my interest in OSes generally, and this
new version, in particular.
On 4/22/23 17:26, Joel wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
That is fair, honestly, to the extent that this issue really is
Microsoft's doing - but I have to wonder, is it poor hardware and/or
drivers, or OEM crapware, preinstalled on the device, and not
something in Windows itself? Because I've been running Win11 since
day one, I upgraded from 10, never looking back, and the only real
issue I've encountered, was that weird bug, where the systray had
lingering popup descriptions, when the mouse hovered over it, which
was fixed in the first few months of 11's existence. And, MS had not
recommended people upgrade, until Windows Update specifically offered
it, to a device, I willingly chose to do the immediate upgrade, upon
its public release, because of my interest in OSes generally, and this
new version, in particular.
See here is the thing Joel: I have to determine if the
issue is hardware or software. I mainly do that by
booting off a Fedora Live USB drive that I have
configured for a ton of hardware tests and other things.
If hibernate and suspend work find in Fedora and I
can not find any other hardware issues, then it is
M$'s doing.
Now anyone who has read my writing knows that I am
no fan of M$ and that I am completely aware that I
would not have a job without their poor quality. And
if they read further, know that I have ways of masking
those issues from my customers so they can use
Windows computers with relative stability. Well
so M$. (I have shared them in the past and the
M$ fanbois soiled their pants over it.)
You can make Windows work fairly reliably. But
you have to get past the nonsense that M$ is
not the issue.
I have Not read most of the posts in this thread, but
FWIW, a MS Update did foul up "hibernation" for me one time last year
(in the sense that "sleep" was not available).
When I requested and performed an update a few days later, it fixed the problem.
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
That is fair, honestly, to the extent that this issue really is
Microsoft's doing - but I have to wonder, is it poor hardware and/or
drivers, or OEM crapware, preinstalled on the device, and not
something in Windows itself? Because I've been running Win11 since
day one, I upgraded from 10, never looking back, and the only real
issue I've encountered, was that weird bug, where the systray had
lingering popup descriptions, when the mouse hovered over it, which
was fixed in the first few months of 11's existence. And, MS had not
recommended people upgrade, until Windows Update specifically offered
it, to a device, I willingly chose to do the immediate upgrade, upon
its public release, because of my interest in OSes generally, and this
new version, in particular.
See here is the thing Joel: I have to determine if the
issue is hardware or software. I mainly do that by
booting off a Fedora Live USB drive that I have
configured for a ton of hardware tests and other things.
If hibernate and suspend work find in Fedora and I
can not find any other hardware issues, then it is
M$'s doing.
Now anyone who has read my writing knows that I am
no fan of M$ and that I am completely aware that I
would not have a job without their poor quality. And
if they read further, know that I have ways of masking
those issues from my customers so they can use
Windows computers with relative stability. Well
so M$. (I have shared them in the past and the
M$ fanbois soiled their pants over it.)
You can make Windows work fairly reliably. But
you have to get past the nonsense that M$ is
not the issue.
On 4/22/23 16:28, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/22/2023 4:09 AM:
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on
spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
I read your reply, did you forget your words.
  "The last one was artifacts on spreadsheets"
Disabling Fast boot or hibernation doesn't and never will fix artifacts
on a spreadsheet or even your latest self-tweaked words 'artifacts on
display'.
As Paul and others have noted look elsewhere - and like many who
believe they fix things, they rarely prove to themselves or anyone the
ability to reduplicate the issue never ever validating what was claimed
to have fix something while still trying to sell a story/pat on the back.
w¡ñ§±¤ñ, the issues goes away after I disable fast boot
and do a hard reboot. If they do not come back, and
95% of the time they do not and never come back, then
it is M$ Fast Boot at fault. Windows is not a stable operating system.
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
If the problem persists, and it does about 5% of the
time, then I have something to fix and I get to make
some money. I usually can't charge for disabling Fast
Boot as it only takes a few minutes.
The big tip off that Windows is crashed is that when
you go to troubleshot, nothing seems to work as
expected.
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
On 4/22/23 16:28, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/22/2023 4:09 AM:
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on
spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
I read your reply, did you forget your words.
"The last one was artifacts on spreadsheets"
Disabling Fast boot or hibernation doesn't and never will fix artifacts
on a spreadsheet or even your latest self-tweaked words 'artifacts on display'.
As Paul and others have noted look elsewhere - and like many who believe they fix things, they rarely prove to themselves or anyone the ability
to reduplicate the issue never ever validating what was claimed to have
fix something while still trying to sell a story/pat on the back.
w¡ñ§±¤ñ, the issues goes away after I disable fast boot
and do a hard reboot. If they do not come back, and
95% of the time they do not and never come back, then
it is M$ Fast Boot at fault. Windows is not a stable operating system.
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
Until reverts and returns a problem(artifacts wherever you claimed they existed(spreadsheet or display) it's really an un-validated claim.
Nothing hurts my feelings. I just expect someone that services customers
has the knowledge to validate something before later claiming 'something fixed it' especially when Fast Boot has not a single iota of code to
impact character rendering.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
<BARF!>
I hate to rain on your parade, but I *never* reboot just for the hell
of it!
I reboot at most once every month at/after 'Patch Tuesday'.
And during our recent trip, the system was not rebooted for *three
months* (months, not days) because I didn't let the system update
itself.
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
Now anyone who has read my writing knows that I am
no fan of M$
and that I am completely aware that I
would not have a job without their poor quality. And
if they read further, know that I have ways of masking
those issues from my customers so they can use
Windows computers with relative stability.
Well
so M$. (I have shared them in the past and the
M$ fanbois soiled their pants over it.)
You can make Windows work fairly reliably.
But
you have to get past the nonsense that M$ is
not the issue.
Thanks, Frank. That "reboot routinely every three days or sooner"
struck me as wrong also.
With my older laptop (Windows 8.1 new in 2015), desktop (Windows 10,
Dec 2021), and laptop (Windows 11, last week) I've been in the habit
of hibernating them rather than shutting down, except of course when
Windows Update or an application installer asks for a reboot. I don't
recall ever having a problem in Windows 8.1 or 10 that a simple
reboot cured. And actually, Windows beginning with Windows 7 has
seemed to be pretty darn stable. The numerous annoyances-by-design of
Windows 8 and later have, I think, given some a false perception
about Windows reliability.
However, since the three latest machines all have SSDs as their boot
drives, I've decided to shut them down at the end of the day rather
than hibernating. Even with Fast Startup disabled, the extra time to
do a cold boot, as opposed to resuming from hibernation, isn't enough
to matter.
And that way I'm not writing several gigabytes of
Hiberfile.sys so often. I don't know whether the reduction in wear on
the SSDs is significant,
but to my surprise shutdown is noticeably
faster than hibernation.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 4/22/23 16:28, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/22/2023 4:09 AM:
On 4/22/23 01:42, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Don't be fooled into believing that some magic wand-like gesture of
turning fast startup off was the cure for fixing artifacts on
spreadsheets.
Hmmmm. It worked.
M$ has claimed low quality hardware as an excuse
for its poor quality for years. The excuses are
wearing thin.
And the artifacts were on the display, not in
the spreadsheet.
I read your reply, did you forget your words.
"The last one was artifacts on spreadsheets"
Disabling Fast boot or hibernation doesn't and never will fix artifacts >> > on a spreadsheet or even your latest self-tweaked words 'artifacts on
display'.
As Paul and others have noted look elsewhere - and like many who believe >> > they fix things, they rarely prove to themselves or anyone the ability
to reduplicate the issue never ever validating what was claimed to have >> > fix something while still trying to sell a story/pat on the back.
w¡ñ§±¤ñ, the issues goes away after I disable fast boot
and do a hard reboot. If they do not come back, and
95% of the time they do not and never come back, then
it is M$ Fast Boot at fault. Windows is not a stable operating system.
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
<BARF!>
I hate to rain on your parade, but I *never* reboot just for the hell
of it!
I reboot at most once every month at/after 'Patch Tuesday'.
And during our recent trip, the system was not rebooted for *three
months* (months, not days) because I didn't let the system update
itself.
I can't say I envy your customers.
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
However, since the three latest machines all have SSDs as their boot drives, I've decided to shut them down at the end of the day rather
than hibernating. Even with Fast Startup disabled, the extra time to
do a cold boot, as opposed to resuming from hibernation, isn't enough
to matter.
That's a perfectly reasonable method/choice.
I use 'sleep' (Modern Standby) -> (Adaptive) hibernate, because I want
to be able to resume with all programs as and where they were. If you
don't mind restarting your programs, Shut down is a perfectly good
choice.
And that way I'm not writing several gigabytes of
Hiberfile.sys so often. I don't know whether the reduction in wear on
the SSDs is significant,
I don't know how much wear hibernation is causing and whether it's
worth to worry about it. This is my first SSD. Similar experience with SD-cards, writing over the same area once a day, hasn't shown any
problem for years. Perhaps Paul can shed a light on the SSD wear - if
any - caused by hiberating.
On 23 Apr 2023 15:41:15 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:[...]
I use Sleep when I'm going to fix and eat a sandwich or otherwise
expect to be back at the computer in more than 5 minutes but less
than around 30. More often than not, since _everything_ takes longer
than I expect, by the time I come back I find the system has
hibernated anyway. I suppose I ought to lengthen the time before
hibernation.
And that way I'm not writing several gigabytes of
Hiberfile.sys so often. I don't know whether the reduction in wear on
the SSDs is significant,
I don't know how much wear hibernation is causing and whether it's
worth to worry about it. This is my first SSD. Similar experience with SD-cards, writing over the same area once a day, hasn't shown any
problem for years. Perhaps Paul can shed a light on the SSD wear - if
any - caused by hiberating.
A recent article in How-to Geek concluded that it probably doesn't
make much difference:
<https://www.howtogeek.com/885752/is-hibernating-your-pc-bad-for- your-ssd/#autotoc_anchor_3>
On 23 Apr 2023 14:02:16 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
<BARF!>
I hate to rain on your parade, but I *never* reboot just for the hell
of it!
I reboot at most once every month at/after 'Patch Tuesday'.
And during our recent trip, the system was not rebooted for *three
months* (months, not days) because I didn't let the system update
itself.
Thanks, Frank. That "reboot routinely every three days or sooner"
struck me as wrong also.
With my older laptop (Windows 8.1 new in 2015), desktop (Windows 10,
Dec 2021), and laptop (Windows 11, last week) I've been in the habit
of hibernating them rather than shutting down, except of course when
Windows Update or an application installer asks for a reboot. I don't
recall ever having a problem in Windows 8.1 or 10 that a simple
reboot cured. And actually, Windows beginning with Windows 7 has
seemed to be pretty darn stable. The numerous annoyances-by-design of
Windows 8 and later have, I think, given some a false perception
about Windows reliability.
However, since the three latest machines all have SSDs as their boot
drives, I've decided to shut them down at the end of the day rather
than hibernating. Even with Fast Startup disabled, the extra time to
do a cold boot, as opposed to resuming from hibernation, isn't enough
to matter. And that way I'm not writing several gigabytes of
Hiberfile.sys so often. I don't know whether the reduction in wear on
the SSDs is significant, but to my surprise shutdown is noticeably
faster than hibernation.
...w¡ñ§±¤ñ <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
[About T's 'troubleshooting' by turning off fast startup:]
Until reverts and returns a problem(artifacts wherever you claimed they
existed(spreadsheet or display) it's really an un-validated claim.
Exactly. Troubleshooting 101.
Nothing hurts my feelings. I just expect someone that services customers
has the knowledge to validate something before later claiming 'something
fixed it' especially when Fast Boot has not a single iota of code to
impact character rendering.
Straight from Kepner-Tregoe's Analytical Troubleshooting: Is/Is not [1].
Having been a professional troubleshooter for decades, I cringe when I
see 'methods' like this.
[1]
'Analytic Troubleshooting' <https://kepner-tregoe.com/training/analytic-troubleshooting/>
(IIRC, it used to be 'AnalyticAL Troubleshooting' when I took it.)
'Root Cause Analysis' might also come in handy <https://kepner-tregoe.com/training/root-cause-analysis/>
You can throw in a bit a Taguchi, Deming and Shainin into my reply.
I use 'sleep' (Modern Standby) -> (Adaptive) hibernate, because I
want to be able to resume with all programs as and where they
were. If you don't mind restarting your programs, Shut down is a
perfectly good choice.
On 23 Apr 2023 15:41:15 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
I use 'sleep' (Modern Standby) -> (Adaptive) hibernate, because I
want to be able to resume with all programs as and where they
were. If you don't mind restarting your programs, Shut down is a
perfectly good choice.
...which saves power when you go to sleep at night.
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
And that way I'm not writing several gigabytes of
Hiberfile.sys so often. I don't know whether the reduction in wear on
the SSDs is significant,
I don't know how much wear hibernation is causing and whether it's
worth to worry about it. This is my first SSD. Similar experience with >SD-cards, writing over the same area once a day, hasn't shown any
problem for years. Perhaps Paul can shed a light on the SSD wear - if
any - caused by hiberating.
I don't know how much wear hibernation is causing and whether it's
worth to worry about it. This is my first SSD. Similar experience with SD-cards, writing over the same area once a day, hasn't shown any
problem for years.
Frank Slootweg wrote:
I don't know how much wear hibernation is causing and whether it's
worth to worry about it. This is my first SSD. Similar experience with
SD-cards, writing over the same area once a day, hasn't shown any
problem for years.
With an SSD, it won't be the same areas of the drive over-written every time, yes the same logical sector numbers, but the controller on the drive will "rotate" them to different physical block numbers (which are bigger than sectors that the O/S sees)
On Sun, 23 Apr 2023 12:48:10 -0700, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
You can throw in a bit a Taguchi, Deming and Shainin into my reply.
Ah, Taguchi Methods and Deeming's 'Out of the Crisis' I still have
the books!
My Windows 11 laptop no longer has hibernation settings in the 'Power Options' Control Panel applet (my Windows 8.1 laptop still had them),
only 'Sleep after'. That's probably because it has 'Adaptive hibernate'.
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Also, I am not a M$ Fanboi. I will not lie to the
customer to protect my favorite OS's reputation.
I work for the customer, not M$.
That is fair, honestly, to the extent that this issue really is
Microsoft's doing - but I have to wonder, is it poor hardware and/or
drivers, or OEM crapware, preinstalled on the device, and not
something in Windows itself? Because I've been running Win11 since
day one, I upgraded from 10, never looking back, and the only real
issue I've encountered, was that weird bug, where the systray had
lingering popup descriptions, when the mouse hovered over it, which
was fixed in the first few months of 11's existence. And, MS had not
recommended people upgrade, until Windows Update specifically offered
it, to a device, I willingly chose to do the immediate upgrade, upon
its public release, because of my interest in OSes generally, and this
new version, in particular.
See here is the thing Joel: I have to determine if the
issue is hardware or software. I mainly do that by
booting off a Fedora Live USB drive that I have
configured for a ton of hardware tests and other things.
If hibernate and suspend work find in Fedora and I
can not find any other hardware issues, then it is
M$'s doing.
Now anyone who has read my writing knows that I am
no fan of M$ and that I am completely aware that I
would not have a job without their poor quality. And
if they read further, know that I have ways of masking
those issues from my customers so they can use
Windows computers with relative stability. Well
so M$. (I have shared them in the past and the
M$ fanbois soiled their pants over it.)
You can make Windows work fairly reliably. But
you have to get past the nonsense that M$ is
not the issue.
It's just that I find it hard to figure out the precise cause, because
you aren't the only one reporting this kind of thing, but yet it's not happening to everyone. Like, am I just lucky? I don't know.
If you want to say that "Microsoft is*never* the issue" is nonsense,
I agree with you. But if you want to say that "Microsoft is*not* the
issue" is nonsense, I disagree. Sometime it is, and sometimes it
isn't.
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never
reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer.
And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never
reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 07:09:10 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never
reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Yes. That's why I disagree, It is *not* true that everyone "need[s] a
hard reboot at least every three days or Windows starts getting
weird."
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer.
I have two home computers--mine and my wife's. And I see and help
people with many others--those of friends and relatives.And I see the computers and talk with lots of other people who don't need my help.
So multiply what you call my "single home computer" by 10 or 20 to be
more accurate.
Yes, I'm sure that you see more than I do, but the difference is
nowhere near as extreme as you make it out to be.
And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
Right. That's a reason why your statement "You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird" is false.
On 4/25/23 14:35, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 7:09 AM:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:Hard boot(aka more commonly at Cold boot) every 3 days ?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never >>>> reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
  => False
Fyi.
  Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS feature when available
  Fast Startup(not Boot) is a Power Option advanced feature toggle
item(On/Off)
  Hibernation is a Power Option advanced feature 'Show in Power Menu'
toggle item(Show/Don't Show)
  Both Fast Startup and the Hibernation Power options items are only
present when Hibernation is enabled via Command or Powershell terminal
window
  ==> powercfg /hibernate on
Note: Hibernate is not available on all devices. Win11 built devices
have a higher likelihood of availability than earlier devices(Win10
built, Win7 built, Win7 or Win10 upgraded to !0/11) and laptops and
tablet have higher likelihood of the feature being present and enabled
as a default.
Calling when not having problems is and has never been equatable to
Fast Startup or Hibernation being turned on/off.
  - it's like claiming all recipients that didn't reply to a survey
have the exact same conditions/issues/responses as those that replied
to a survey.
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
On 4/23/23 03:52, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
Until reverts and returns a problem(artifacts wherever you claimed they existed(spreadsheet or display) it's really an un-validated claim.
The customer sent me a picture from her smart phone.
There were horizontal artifacts all over the screen.
It looked like a declassified documents that had
been redacted. (Nothing wrong with the spreadsheet
itself, just what was showing on the screen.)
I started a remote go to assist session with her,
noticed that I did not see any artifacts on my
end, so I immediately disabled Fast Boot and
did a hard reboot.
Problem solved and DID NOT come back.
By chance did you think there was something wrong
in the spreadsheet that wa causing the artifacts?
On 23 Apr 2023 17:46:03 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
My Windows 11 laptop no longer has hibernation settings in the 'Power
Options' Control Panel applet (my Windows 8.1 laptop still had them),
only 'Sleep after'. That's probably because it has 'Adaptive hibernate'.
I believe some Windows PCs ship with hibernate deactivated, perhaps
by the manufacturer. There's a setting to enable or disable
hibernate. (In Windows 10 it's Control Panel » Power Options » System Settings, and you have to click "Change settings that are currently unavailable". I can't check Windows 11 because I'm not on my laptop.)
In my use case, I want Hibernate as a fallback for the numerous times
when I think I'll just be away for a few minutes and then I don't
actually get back for a few hours. But that's me. Folks who are
better organized may do just fine with Sleep and Shut Down.
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
On 4/25/23 14:35, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having the
T wrote on 4/25/2023 7:09 AM:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:Hard boot(aka more commonly at Cold boot) every 3 days ?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never >>>>>> reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
False
Fyi.
Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS feature when available
Fast Startup(not Boot) is a Power Option advanced feature toggle
item(On/Off)
Hibernation is a Power Option advanced feature 'Show in Power Menu' >>>> toggle item(Show/Don't Show)
Both Fast Startup and the Hibernation Power options items are only
present when Hibernation is enabled via Command or Powershell
terminal window
powercfg /hibernate on
Note: Hibernate is not available on all devices. Win11 built devices
have a higher likelihood of availability than earlier devices(Win10
built, Win7 built, Win7 or Win10 upgraded to !0/11) and laptops and
tablet have higher likelihood of the feature being present and
enabled as a default.
Calling when not having problems is and has never been equatable to
Fast Startup or Hibernation being turned on/off.
- it's like claiming all recipients that didn't reply to a survey
have the exact same conditions/issues/responses as those that replied >>>> to a survey.
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that when
something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when its not
even remotely close/possible) is just another attempt at spreading false
information.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having the
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that when
something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when its not
even remotely close/possible) is just another attempt at spreading false
information.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
the ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that
when something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when
its not even remotely close/possible) is just another attempt at
spreading false information.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
I wouldn't quite call myself a "fanboy" of Microsoft, maybe of Win11 *itself*, and not in all cases, because I *do* know, all too well, how inferior Windows is on laptop hardware, and on lower-end hardware
generally. My computer has great hardware, and a retail license for
Windows Pro, so I don't have a lot of headaches. I love having it.
But to say that Linux isn't in some abstract sense the superior
desktop OS, is to be a God damn fool. It is, objectively.
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
On 4/25/23 14:35, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having the
T wrote on 4/25/2023 7:09 AM:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:Hard boot(aka more commonly at Cold boot) every 3 days ?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never >>>>>> reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
  => False
Fyi.
  Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS feature when available
  Fast Startup(not Boot) is a Power Option advanced feature toggle
item(On/Off)
  Hibernation is a Power Option advanced feature 'Show in Power Menu' >>>> toggle item(Show/Don't Show)
  Both Fast Startup and the Hibernation Power options items are only >>>> present when Hibernation is enabled via Command or Powershell
terminal window
  ==> powercfg /hibernate on
Note: Hibernate is not available on all devices. Win11 built devices
have a higher likelihood of availability than earlier devices(Win10
built, Win7 built, Win7 or Win10 upgraded to !0/11) and laptops and
tablet have higher likelihood of the feature being present and
enabled as a default.
Calling when not having problems is and has never been equatable to
Fast Startup or Hibernation being turned on/off.
  - it's like claiming all recipients that didn't reply to a survey
have the exact same conditions/issues/responses as those that replied
to a survey.
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that when
something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when its not
even remotely close/possible) is just another attempt at spreading
false information.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
I wouldn't quite call myself a "fanboy" of Microsoft, maybe of Win11
*itself*, and not in all cases, because I *do* know, all too well, how
inferior Windows is on laptop hardware, and on lower-end hardware
generally. My computer has great hardware, and a retail license for
Windows Pro, so I don't have a lot of headaches. I love having it.
But to say that Linux isn't in some abstract sense the superior
desktop OS, is to be a God damn fool. It is, objectively.
Linux is the superior operating system.
I consider Windows a social experiment by Microsoft to see how much
shit people will put up with.
On 4/26/2023 12:56 PM, Johnny wrote:
Linux is the superior operating system.
Johnny, go install Gentoo :-)
I'll watch :-/
The kernel is of high quality, because the guy
running the show, does care not to break things.
He's not a "move fast and break stuff" guy, like the
application people.
But the Application part of your OS, is just as
rickety and stoopid as the Microsoft one.
Because... "developers and developer careers".
Flatpak, AppImage, Snap, and some with absolutely
no tools or visibility, to aid in analysis or debug.
That's a danger sign by the way -- obscuring stuff
is such a bad smell.
I first ran into this, with our web guy in the department.
He used to maintain our internal web site.
I would ask him "why did you use PHP ? what aspect
of it was superior ?". And he would say "... it looks
good on my resume". And the day some crap was using
Java, or any number of other whizzy things web people
could get up to, it was our standard part of the joke
that he would say "... and, it looks good on my resume".
And this is what drives a lot of development in Ring 3.
Ego. And resumes.
And the "many eyes" aspect of FOSS, is broken today. I
get to discuss this on a daily basis with people. People
attempting to hide what they're doing, with a PPA. A posting
just yesterday from Mario, where a PPA didn't actually
function as a PPA, it just offered a vehicle to "install
shit directly on a users computer". Which is a violation
of so many rules.
The only reason Linux is not a flaming dumpster, is
because the Black Hats don't see it as a lucrative target.
And you know people have already targeted kernel.org
for "shenanigans". The end result being that Linus Torvalds
has to be a lot more careful about who he deals with, and
how much rope he gives them. There are people out there
testing Linux for cracks and crevices, and you know who
those parties are. They're the APT groups, foreign nationals.
Paul
Linux is the superior operating system.
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:being present and enabled as a default.
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
On 4/25/23 14:35, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 7:09 AM:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:Hard boot(aka more commonly at Cold boot) every 3 days ?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost never >>>>>> reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
  => False
Fyi.
  Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS feature when available
  Fast Startup(not Boot) is a Power Option advanced feature toggle item(On/Off)
  Hibernation is a Power Option advanced feature 'Show in Power Menu' toggle item(Show/Don't Show)
  Both Fast Startup and the Hibernation Power options items are only present when Hibernation is enabled via Command or Powershell terminal window
  ==> powercfg /hibernate on
Note: Hibernate is not available on all devices. Win11 built devices have a higher likelihood of availability than earlier devices(Win10 built, Win7 built, Win7 or Win10 upgraded to !0/11) and laptops and tablet have higher likelihood of the feature
attempt at spreading false information.Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having the ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that when something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when its not even remotely close/possible) is just another
Calling when not having problems is and has never been equatable to Fast Startup or Hibernation being turned on/off.
  - it's like claiming all recipients that didn't reply to a survey have the exact same conditions/issues/responses as those that replied to a survey.
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
On 4/25/2023 7:46 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
In my use case, I want Hibernate as a fallback for the numerous times
when I think I'll just be away for a few minutes and then I don't
actually get back for a few hours. But that's me. Folks who are
better organized may do just fine with Sleep and Shut Down.
As utilities go, "powercfg" is your friend, and has
multiple reporting capabilities and controls.
This is the first step (in case you turned it off already)
powercfg /h on
That installs a hiberfil.sys for you.
But, that does not enable Sleep and Hibernate in the menus.
You still have to turn them on. This is a previously posted picture
with examples.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/DyTnxPc6/hibernate.gif
On 4/26/23 09:51, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 8:41 PM:
On 4/25/23 20:16, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:
T wrote on 4/25/2023 4:57 PM:
On 4/25/23 14:35, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ wrote:Not at all, just know(based on experience, research, and having the
T wrote on 4/25/2023 7:09 AM:
On 4/23/23 08:13, Ken Blake wrote:Hard boot(aka more commonly at Cold boot) every 3 days ?
On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 16:53:35 -0700, T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>
I am sorry if that statement hurts you feeling but it
needs to be made anyway. You need a hard reboot at
least every three days or Windows starts getting weird.
I completely disagree. That's not my experience at all. I almost >>>>>>>> never
reboot, hard or soft, unless an update requires it.
I usually go for weeks without rebooting.
So what? It all depends on how you use your computer.
Windows will hard boot yo every 30 days or so with
fast boot and you got lucky.
Keep in mind that I see many, many more computers
than your single home computer. And folks do not
call me when they are not having problems.
I can go for years on Linux servers without rebooting.
  => False
Fyi.
  Fast Boot is a UEFI/BIOS feature when available
  Fast Startup(not Boot) is a Power Option advanced feature toggle >>>>>> item(On/Off)
  Hibernation is a Power Option advanced feature 'Show in Power
Menu' toggle item(Show/Don't Show)
  Both Fast Startup and the Hibernation Power options items are
only present when Hibernation is enabled via Command or Powershell >>>>>> terminal window
  ==> powercfg /hibernate on
Note: Hibernate is not available on all devices. Win11 built
devices have a higher likelihood of availability than earlier
devices(Win10 built, Win7 built, Win7 or Win10 upgraded to !0/11)
and laptops and tablet have higher likelihood of the feature being >>>>>> present and enabled as a default.
Calling when not having problems is and has never been equatable
to Fast Startup or Hibernation being turned on/off.
  - it's like claiming all recipients that didn't reply to a
survey have the exact same conditions/issues/responses as those
that replied to a survey.
Do you work for M$? Feel free to ignore my advice to your
hearts content.
ability to ping the right people with deeper knowledge) that when
something is claimed to be related to a Windows feature(when its not
even remotely close/possible) is just another attempt at spreading
false information.
I could accuse you of the same thing, fanboi.
Do let everyone know when you find something supporting 'could'?
You provide reasonably accurate cause/effect info some of the time, in
this and previous challenged cases not so much.
  - what's worse is your typical response resorts to name calling.
Sad, very sad.
Feel free to keeping digging those holes. Doubtful anyone is going to
jump in(with you).
You do a pretty good job of defending M$'s reputation.
On 4/27/23 20:31, ...winston wrote:
You do a pretty good job of defending M$'s reputation.
Has nothing to do with their reputation,
More to seeing false claims of blame made without any validated evidence.
There you go again. I have tons of experience
fixing these issue and that is "false evidence".
M$ reputation is upheld, fanboi.
On 4/27/23 20:37, ...winston wrote:
T wrote:
On 4/27/23 20:31, ...winston wrote:
You do a pretty good job of defending M$'s reputation.
Has nothing to do with their reputation,
More to seeing false claims of blame made without any validated evidence.
There you go again. I have tons of experience
fixing these issue and that is "false evidence".
M$ reputation is upheld, fanboi.
Dig that hole.
  Fast startup doesn't fix artifacts.
I know of an instance when it did.
Disabling Fast startup fixes a lot of
stability issues. I do it over and
over and over.
T wrote:
On 4/28/23 09:50, ...winston wrote:Meds not working?
As I and others have noted - the presence of artifacts on a display(or
even a spreadsheet) is not related to Fast Startup(on or off). Even if
the so called artifacts is/was resolved, by a Restart, Fast Startup
would still have no contribution to cause or effect.
Fanbio
Can't even spell a 6 letter word.
Who knows maybe you meant artificial instead of artifacts.
That's the ticket, they weren't artifacts, it was some artificially
fixed by a Restart.
On 4/28/23 09:50, ...winston wrote:
T wrote:
On 4/27/23 20:37, ...winston wrote:
T wrote:
On 4/27/23 20:31, ...winston wrote:
You do a pretty good job of defending M$'s reputation.
Has nothing to do with their reputation,
More to seeing false claims of blame made without any validated evidence.
There you go again. I have tons of experience
fixing these issue and that is "false evidence".
M$ reputation is upheld, fanboi.
Dig that hole.
  Fast startup doesn't fix artifacts.
I know of an instance when it did.
Disabling Fast startup fixes a lot of
stability issues. I do it over and
over and over.
Are you really paying attention.
To see so, I purposely said Fast Startup instead of Restart
  => doesn't fix artifacts
Your response now is contradictory.
  i.e. you know of an instance where Fast Startup fixes artifacts("I
know of an instance when it did")
That hole keeps getting bigger.
Disabling Fast Startup may fix some stability issues on devices never
intended for its use, but disabling it will never, ever fix what was
previously claimed(that it fixes artifacts on a display or spreadsheet)
As I and others have noted - the presence of artifacts on a display(or
even a spreadsheet) is not related to Fast Startup(on or off). Even if
the so called artifacts is/was resolved, by a Restart, Fast Startup
would still have no contribution to cause or effect.
Fanbio
"...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
T wrote:
On 4/28/23 09:50, ...winston wrote:Meds not working?
As I and others have noted - the presence of artifacts on a display(or >>>> even a spreadsheet) is not related to Fast Startup(on or off). Even if >>>> the so called artifacts is/was resolved, by a Restart, Fast Startup
would still have no contribution to cause or effect.
Fanbio
Can't even spell a 6 letter word.
Who knows maybe you meant artificial instead of artifacts.
That's the ticket, they weren't artifacts, it was some artificially
fixed by a Restart.
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
"...winston" <winstonmvp@gmail.com> wrote:
T wrote:
On 4/28/23 09:50, ...winston wrote:Meds not working?
As I and others have noted - the presence of artifacts on a display(or >>>> even a spreadsheet) is not related to Fast Startup(on or off). Even if >>>> the so called artifacts is/was resolved, by a Restart, Fast Startup
would still have no contribution to cause or effect.
Fanbio
Can't even spell a 6 letter word.
Who knows maybe you meant artificial instead of artifacts.
That's the ticket, they weren't artifacts, it was some artificially
fixed by a Restart.
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
That is M$'s marketing department's excuse
for problems with Windows.
There is no reason why Windows, with professional
paid programmers, can not make their OS run on
the same cheaper hardware that unpaid volunteer
programmers on their own time, can make run
flawlessly on Linux.
On 5/1/23 12:17, Paul wrote:
Sometimes, you cannot take screenshots and capture the problem,
and you need an HDMI capture card to do it.
In my case, the customer took a picture of it with
her cell phone.
One of the great features of Go To Assist, if the
video card is failing, it does not show up on Go
To Assist.
My first thought was that it was a failing video
card (it was an on board video on the CPU).
But after disabling fast boot and doing a
hard reboot, the symptom could not be
reproduced.
On 5/1/23 12:17, Paul wrote:
Sometimes, you cannot take screenshots and capture the problem,
and you need an HDMI capture card to do it.
In my case, the customer took a picture of it with
her cell phone.
One of the great features of Go To Assist, if the
video card is failing, it does not show up on Go
To Assist.
My first thought was that it was a failing video
card (it was an on board video on the CPU).
But after disabling fast boot and doing a
hard reboot, the symptom could not be
reproduced.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
That is M$'s marketing department's excuse
for problems with Windows.
There is no reason why Windows, with professional
paid programmers, can not make their OS run on
the same cheaper hardware that unpaid volunteer
programmers on their own time, can make run
flawlessly on Linux.
It just doesn't make sense that Microsoft would certify drivers for
hardware, that does work with open source drivers under Linux, but
fails to work under Windows itself. Your assertion needs evidence.
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
That is M$'s marketing department's excuse
for problems with Windows.
There is no reason why Windows, with professional
paid programmers, can not make their OS run on
the same cheaper hardware that unpaid volunteer
programmers on their own time, can make run
flawlessly on Linux.
It just doesn't make sense that Microsoft would certify drivers for
hardware, that does work with open source drivers under Linux, but
fails to work under Windows itself. Your assertion needs evidence.
I am confused by your question.
I little understanding of Linux maybe?
In Linux, the drivers come inside the kernel.
You can add them if you like, but I have not
had to do that for maybe 20 years now.
The kernels are gone over with a fine
toothed comb.
I can only replay what I saw. Perhaps
there was clutter in teh video memory?
On 5/3/23 18:49, Joel wrote:
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
That is M$'s marketing department's excuse
for problems with Windows.
There is no reason why Windows, with professional
paid programmers, can not make their OS run on
the same cheaper hardware that unpaid volunteer
programmers on their own time, can make run
flawlessly on Linux.
It just doesn't make sense that Microsoft would certify drivers for
hardware, that does work with open source drivers under Linux, but
fails to work under Windows itself. Your assertion needs evidence.
I am confused by your question.
I little understanding of Linux maybe?
In Linux, the drivers come inside the kernel.
You can add them if you like, but I have not
had to do that for maybe 20 years now.
The kernels are gone over with a fine
toothed comb.
T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
T is blaming Windows for poor hardware failing.
That is M$'s marketing department's excuse
for problems with Windows.
There is no reason why Windows, with professional
paid programmers, can not make their OS run on
the same cheaper hardware that unpaid volunteer
programmers on their own time, can make run
flawlessly on Linux.
It just doesn't make sense that Microsoft would certify drivers for
hardware, that does work with open source drivers under Linux, but
fails to work under Windows itself. Your assertion needs evidence.
I am confused by your question.
I little understanding of Linux maybe?
In Linux, the drivers come inside the kernel.
You can add them if you like, but I have not
had to do that for maybe 20 years now.
The kernels are gone over with a fine
toothed comb.
I mean that you would need to show more specifically how this has been demonstrated to be the case.
On 5/3/23 21:35, ...winston wrote:
T wrote:
On 5/1/23 12:17, Paul wrote:You(she) disabled Fast Start, not Fast Boot.
Sometimes, you cannot take screenshots and capture the problem, >>>> and you need an HDMI capture card to do it.
In my case, the customer took a picture of it with
her cell phone.
One of the great features of Go To Assist, if the
video card is failing, it does not show up on Go
To Assist.
My first thought was that it was a failing video
card (it was an on board video on the CPU).
But after disabling fast boot and doing a
hard reboot, the symptom could not be
reproduced.
Repro requires re-enabling Fast Start and verifying the problem
re-appears. Until then, the cause/effect analysis(Fast
Start/artifacts) is false reasoning.
FanboiNo matter how you look at...disabling Fast Start did not nor will it
So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
T wrote:
So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
As I've said before.
Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a display
or spreadsheet.
On 5/6/23 10:24, ...winston wrote:
T wrote:
So, you have no freaking idea what actually caused
the artifacts, yet you claim superior knowledge.
As I've said before.
Disabling Fast Start doesn't(and will never) fix artifacts on a display
or spreadsheet.
Bull Shit. A corrupted OS can write crap to
video memory. Oh the pretty crap that shows
on your screen when you do so.
And Paul's explanations were well done as
probably causes. Your's, on the other hand,
stated things as unequivocal fact, when you
have no freaking clue what the actual cause was.
I do not either. I just now what stopped it.
Fanbio.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
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