I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately,
after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom
process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable,
even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after
a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?


==========

An example - this process started yesterday and is still there today after
the computer being shutdown for the night:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pslist64 -x musescore4

PsList v1.4 - Process information lister
Process and thread information for xxx:

Name Pid VM WS Priv Priv Pk Faults NonP Page MuseScore4 6596 4851208 192448 149652 384200 181593 50 783
Tid Pri Cswtch State User Time Kernel Time Elapsed Time 5460 8 8392793 Wait:DelayExec 0:00:00.000 0:00:00.062 44:12:22.952


When I try to kill it with PSKILL, Task Manager, or Process Explorer I
get an Access Denied message:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pskill64 -t 6596

PsKill v1.16 - Terminates processes on local or remote systems

Unable to kill process 6596:
Access is denied.

=====================

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after
a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

Re-install Windows 10 from scrathc?

--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after
a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-down-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and a full restart.






--
Graham J

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27 Mar 2023, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

Re-install Windows 10 from scrathc?

That would be a HUGE inconvenience and a last resort. Nevertheless, I'm considering it. This computer was upgraded from Windows 7. I've almost
always gone for a fresh install when upgrading OSs, but this one seemed
to have gone pretty smoothly... but maybe not entirely.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27 Mar 2023, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-do >wn-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and a
full restart.

Yes, I did have Fast Startup enabled. Now that I turned it off the
processes go away during the reboot. So, one mystery solved, but the
core questions remain - why does it leave a process running, why do
each running of the program also leave a new process running, and why
can I not kill those processes? And why THIS computer only, none of the
others?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/2023 3:38 PM, Graham J wrote:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently
updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately,
after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process
lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom
process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, >> even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after >> a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my >> Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their >> user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-down-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and a full restart.

Fast Startup preserves the kernel, but not the environment
running beside the kernel (so-called userspace).

It would take full hibernation, to preserve kernel+userspace.

Metro Apps, when you exit them, can remain in memory, in a
Suspended state. This is supposed to make them faster to load.
But they should also be destroyed at shutdown.

*******

I would recommend using the Feedback Hub and reporting this,
because this is a violation of a security model and needs
immediate attention from someone. It could be malware, but I
doubt it somehow. This feature has the potential to make
for a persistent malware.

The OS has sandboxing capability, but that too should be
destroyed at shutdown and the memory where the OS image
sits should be discarded.

One of my concerns about the current OS models, is the
excessive usage of virtualization, and the failure of
Task Manager to keep up with it, and provide proper monitoring.
You can currently have a disagreement between what Task Manager
shows as the level of activity on a computer, and the computer
power consumption as measured via a Kill-O-Watt meter.

In any case, the only resort we have is to report these
things. Don't just pave over it and move on! How this is
being done... it's not a good thing.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 27 Mar 2023, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

On 3/27/2023 3:38 PM, Graham J wrote:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-
down-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and
a full restart.

Fast Startup preserves the kernel, but not the environment
running beside the kernel (so-called userspace).

It would take full hibernation, to preserve kernel+userspace.

Metro Apps, when you exit them, can remain in memory, in a
Suspended state. This is supposed to make them faster to load.
But they should also be destroyed at shutdown.

*******

I would recommend using the Feedback Hub and reporting this,
because this is a violation of a security model and needs
immediate attention from someone. It could be malware, but I
doubt it somehow. This feature has the potential to make
for a persistent malware.

The OS has sandboxing capability, but that too should be
destroyed at shutdown and the memory where the OS image
sits should be discarded.

One of my concerns about the current OS models, is the
excessive usage of virtualization, and the failure of
Task Manager to keep up with it, and provide proper monitoring.
You can currently have a disagreement between what Task Manager
shows as the level of activity on a computer, and the computer
power consumption as measured via a Kill-O-Watt meter.

In any case, the only resort we have is to report these
things. Don't just pave over it and move on! How this is
being done... it's not a good thing.

This one isn't a Metro app.

I notice that in Task Manager/Details it shows the phantom processes as
in a Running state, and UAC Virtualization is Disabled. Does that
relate to your comment?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/2023 5:54 PM, Nil wrote:

On 27 Mar 2023, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-do
wn-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and a
full restart.

Yes, I did have Fast Startup enabled. Now that I turned it off the
processes go away during the reboot. So, one mystery solved, but the
core questions remain - why does it leave a process running, why do
each running of the program also leave a new process running, and why
can I not kill those processes? And why THIS computer only, none of the others?

Fast Startup is only supposed to preserve the kernel image. The
kernel is in its own address space. Processes (your pest) run in
Ring 3, the kernel runs in Ring 0. Everything in Ring 3, can only
be preserved via full Hibernation. Fast Startup is not supposed to
preserve Ring 3 contents. (Due to incessant virtualization, the
labeling of Ring numbers now is kinda old school. I don't even know
how to label this shit any more.)

Notice that it is a "process that cannot be killed", that was
caught "hanging around" after a Fast Startup. Is that normal ?
If it was, it would change a zombie, into a persistent pest.
And that cannot be good. It means that everyone should stop
using Fast Startup -- and it still does not explain why "kill"
does not work on it. Because it is in Run State. If the word
"Zombie" had been used, then we would know for sure that kill
cannot work on it. Because it's already dead, and it is stuck
in the harvesting process for some reason. Normally the zombie
state is very very short, so you don't expect to see it in
the display.

If you run Process Explorer as Administrator, you should be
able to check the usage of cycles for the execution threads.
That would be one way to verify it is still running. A running
thing can still charge "zero cycles" during an interval, so a lack
of activity is not abnormal. I'm kinda curious if it is actually
sucking down the cycles while sitting there. If it was dead,
there would be no threads. If there were threads, but they're
not using cycles, that does not tell us anything. If it is using
cycles at the thread level, then it is running.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/2023 6:12 PM, Nil wrote:

This one isn't a Metro app.

I notice that in Task Manager/Details it shows the phantom processes as
in a Running state, and UAC Virtualization is Disabled. Does that
relate to your comment?

https://www.altaro.com/hyper-v/what-is-uac-virtualization/

"Please Welcome to the Stage: UAC Virtualization

So Microsoft came up with UAC Virtualization. Because these applications
expected to be able to write to a program file path, UAC Virtualization
obfuscates the true path to the target folder for the application and
presents it with a writable container within the user path (similar to
a Symbolic Link or Junction). As far as the application is concerned it
has write access to what it needs, but in reality instead of writing to
C:Program Files<Application Path>, it’s actually writing to
%LOCALAPPDATA%VirtualStore<Application Path> (where Windows makes a copy
of all program path files the first time the application tries to write to them)."

It's OK for a program to lose its display window. But it might have
lost it, if the Session Number of the process changed. Session number
is an attempt to prevent malware from interacting with the desktop.
Only things belonging to the current session, should be able to access
the screen, as far as I know.

What's weird, is you're not able to kill this process (which is in "Run" state).
The Task Manager should be running with enough elevation to do it. Is that a Session
issue too ? If so, the Task Manager is working with one hand behind
its back. It should really be able to kill anything.

And you already tried pskill, so that's another piece of evidence.

It is possible for a process to have a state of "Zombie", which for the
last forty or fifty years or so, stood for a process where the resources
could not be harvested by the "boss process" (many OSes share this feature). And it remained for a shutdown and reboot, to cause the defacto harvest of resources
and putting away of everything that mattered. I think I've seen a zombie
on one of these OSes, since it was made. But not lately. A zombie status,
would defy killing, because it's really dead. It's status is "dead", but
its resources cannot be harvested.

You're claiming this is still in a "run" state. A "run" state, but without
a display window. And yet its behavior is kinda consistent with zombie,
except it isn't labeled that way. You'd have to check the power consumption. Especially when stuff like this happens. The following was just recorded
within the last hour, on Windows 11. I'm compressing a VHD file for later,
and Task Manager shows a lack of consistency.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/bYLqQcTB/Task-Manager-Disagreement.gif

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after
a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

==========

An example - this process started yesterday and is still there today after the computer being shutdown for the night:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pslist64 -x musescore4

PsList v1.4 - Process information lister
Process and thread information for xxx:

Name Pid VM WS Priv Priv Pk Faults NonP Page MuseScore4 6596 4851208 192448 149652 384200 181593 50 783
Tid Pri Cswtch State User Time Kernel Time Elapsed Time
5460 8 8392793 Wait:DelayExec 0:00:00.000 0:00:00.062 44:12:22.952

When I try to kill it with PSKILL, Task Manager, or Process Explorer I
get an Access Denied message:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pskill64 -t 6596

PsKill v1.16 - Terminates processes on local or remote systems

Unable to kill process 6596:
Access is denied.

=====================

Instead of starting the executable, call it in a batch file. After
starting it in a .bat file, follow with a taskkill to terminate any
remanant processes. This only works if the batch script is paused while
the program runs, and continues after the program exits. If the program
loads, but immediately returns status to look like it exited after it
just loaded (but it really still loaded), this method won't work.

In the batch file, have the commands (you didn't mention the extension
for the executable file, so I assumed .exe):


<path>\musescore4.exe
taskkill.exe /im musescore4.exe /f


/im means image name which is the executable filename that gets loaded
into memory to run, and /f means to force an exit in case the program
became unresponsive which means it won't accept requests to terminate.

I use a program that captures video streams. It relies on FFmpeg.
Alas, FFmpeg has had a long-time defect of not unloading when requested,
and also of hanging an instance when it become unresponsive. So, I run
the capture program, and follow with a taskkill on all the ffmpeg.exe
processes when I exit the capture program. The capture program author
cannot fix the program. The author(s) of FFmpeg would have to fix their process becoming unresponsive (doesn't return status to the caller) or
of it hanging (it doesn't exit).

You might want to give the .bat file a slightly different filename to
remember to call that executable instead of the original one. Or, you
could put the .bat file in a folder with all other .bat files, and add
that folder (e.g., C:\Bath) to the PATH system environment variable (and
before the folder for your musescore4 program). The same-named .bat
file will be found before the same-named .exe file. If you're only
using a shortcut to run musescore4, just specify the .bat file instead,
and you won't have to be concerned about order of paths found in the
PATH envvar.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

On 27 Mar 2023, Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-do >>wn-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and a
full restart.

Yes, I did have Fast Startup enabled. Now that I turned it off the
processes go away during the reboot. So, one mystery solved, but the
core questions remain - why does it leave a process running, why do
each running of the program also leave a new process running, and why
can I not kill those processes? And why THIS computer only, none of the others?

*ALL* user processes go away with a reboot. You're weren't rebooting
with Fast Startup, but instead restoring the hibernated state of the
kernel.

Report the hanging process on exit defect to the program's author.
They're not doing a proper exit. That it happens only one one computer
likely means there is contention with some other program you loaded
yourself or via auto-run, or you are running different versions of the
program on the other computers. musescore4 went under a "major overhaul" according to their site. New code means old bugs fixed (hopefully), but
also introduces new bugs.

They have their own forums at:

https://musescore.org/en/forum

I didn't bother reading the FAQ or other help pages to research if there
are known problems, especially with all the changes made in v4.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/2023 6:12 PM, Nil wrote:

On 27 Mar 2023, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

On 3/27/2023 3:38 PM, Graham J wrote:

Nil wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

[snip]

See:

<https://www.howtogeek.com/349114/shutting-down-doesnt-fully-shut-
down-windows-10-but-restarting-it-does/>

You may have "Fast Startup" enabled which mixes hiberbnation and
a full restart.

Fast Startup preserves the kernel, but not the environment
running beside the kernel (so-called userspace).

It would take full hibernation, to preserve kernel+userspace.

Metro Apps, when you exit them, can remain in memory, in a
Suspended state. This is supposed to make them faster to load.
But they should also be destroyed at shutdown.

*******

I would recommend using the Feedback Hub and reporting this,
because this is a violation of a security model and needs
immediate attention from someone. It could be malware, but I
doubt it somehow. This feature has the potential to make
for a persistent malware.

The OS has sandboxing capability, but that too should be
destroyed at shutdown and the memory where the OS image
sits should be discarded.

One of my concerns about the current OS models, is the
excessive usage of virtualization, and the failure of
Task Manager to keep up with it, and provide proper monitoring.
You can currently have a disagreement between what Task Manager
shows as the level of activity on a computer, and the computer
power consumption as measured via a Kill-O-Watt meter.

In any case, the only resort we have is to report these
things. Don't just pave over it and move on! How this is
being done... it's not a good thing.

This one isn't a Metro app.

I notice that in Task Manager/Details it shows the phantom processes as
in a Running state, and UAC Virtualization is Disabled. Does that
relate to your comment?

Samsung Magician does the same thing once it is set it to start with
windows and the only way to stop it is to delete the program and
reinstall AND NOT set it to start with windows.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was recently
updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice improvements. Unfortunately,
after I close it after running, the interface goes away, but its process
lingers. Every time I start and close it it leaves yet another phantom
process running. Not only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, >> even when the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it going after >> a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop computer. On my >> Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits normally. There's no sign on their >> user forum of anyone else having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

==========

An example - this process started yesterday and is still there today after >> the computer being shutdown for the night:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pslist64 -x musescore4

PsList v1.4 - Process information lister
Process and thread information for xxx:

Name Pid VM WS Priv Priv Pk Faults NonP Page >> MuseScore4 6596 4851208 192448 149652 384200 181593 50 783 >> Tid Pri Cswtch State User Time Kernel Time Elapsed Time
5460 8 8392793 Wait:DelayExec 0:00:00.000 0:00:00.062 44:12:22.952

When I try to kill it with PSKILL, Task Manager, or Process Explorer I
get an Access Denied message:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pskill64 -t 6596

PsKill v1.16 - Terminates processes on local or remote systems

Unable to kill process 6596:
Access is denied.

=====================

Instead of starting the executable, call it in a batch file. After
starting it in a .bat file, follow with a taskkill to terminate any
remanant processes. This only works if the batch script is paused while
the program runs, and continues after the program exits. If the program loads, but immediately returns status to look like it exited after it
just loaded (but it really still loaded), this method won't work.

In the batch file, have the commands (you didn't mention the extension
for the executable file, so I assumed .exe):

<path>\musescore4.exe
taskkill.exe /im musescore4.exe /f

/im means image name which is the executable filename that gets loaded
into memory to run, and /f means to force an exit in case the program
became unresponsive which means it won't accept requests to terminate.

I use a program that captures video streams. It relies on FFmpeg.
Alas, FFmpeg has had a long-time defect of not unloading when requested,
and also of hanging an instance when it become unresponsive. So, I run
the capture program, and follow with a taskkill on all the ffmpeg.exe processes when I exit the capture program. The capture program author
cannot fix the program. The author(s) of FFmpeg would have to fix their process becoming unresponsive (doesn't return status to the caller) or
of it hanging (it doesn't exit).

You might want to give the .bat file a slightly different filename to remember to call that executable instead of the original one. Or, you
could put the .bat file in a folder with all other .bat files, and add
that folder (e.g., C:\Bath) to the PATH system environment variable (and before the folder for your musescore4 program). The same-named .bat
file will be found before the same-named .exe file. If you're only
using a shortcut to run musescore4, just specify the .bat file instead,
and you won't have to be concerned about order of paths found in the
PATH envvar.

Oops, I see you said the remnant process is unkillable. Perhaps another process keeps restarting it. Perhaps it uses a service to keep itself
loaded. Run service.msc to see if there is a service for this program. Sometimes 2 processes are used: each monitors the other process, and
restarts it if not found. You can try to use taskkill on both processes
trying to get both killed before either can restart the other one.
Doing so at the command line has too much delay, even if you use history
to call up the last command to run taskkill again. Put both taskkill
commands in a .bat file, and run the batch file.

Have you tried loading Windows in its safe mode to get rid of all the
other backgrounded processes or services you installed to run musescore
in a clean environment, and then test if the problem persists?

What about uninstalling the program, delete all its file and registry
remnants, restart Windows (a real restart, not a restore from
hibernate), and test again?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@air.isp.spam> wrote:

Samsung Magician does the same thing once it is set it to start with
windows and the only way to stop it is to delete the program and
reinstall AND NOT set it to start with windows.

I use a .bat file to both start Magician, and then kill it after exiting
its GUI. The gist of the batch script is the command:

taskkill.exe /im SamsungMagician.exe /f /t 1> nul 2> nul

Else, Magicians hangs around wasting space for its systray icon to
quickly recall its GUI - which I don't need all the time, especially
when no longer using it to make tweaks.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I tried your batch file trick. No joy - because the process can't be
killed, the batch file hands. Oh well, worth a shot.

And you ran the .bat file under elevated privileges?

I've tried all those other tricks. No service, no second process that I
can detect. I thoroughly uninstalled it reinstalled, same behavior.

The one thing that I did that pointed toward success was to use the
Windows Sandbox feature. In the Sandbox, the program can be installed
there and it behaves properly. This suggests that it's something
peculiar to my Windows installation and that the only practical
solution may be to freshly install Windows. I don't relish that idea,
but I may end up doing that in the near future. This is an upgrade from Windows 7 and it may carry some legacy junk from the distant past.

That's why I mentioned disabling all the startup programs or restarting
Windows in its safe mode. The program has a clean OS inside the
sandbox, but not outside.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 28 Mar 2023, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I have a program, Musescore (a music notation software) that was
recently updated from version 3 to 4, with many nice
improvements. Unfortunately, after I close it after running, the
interface goes away, but its process lingers. Every time I start
and close it it leaves yet another phantom process running. Not
only that, but those processes seem to be unkillable, even when
the kill utilities are run as Administrator... AND they persist
even after a reboot!

I find no Autostart, listed Service or Task that would keep it
going after a reboot. This is a real mystery to me

This must be something peculiar to this Windows 10 desktop
computer. On my Win10 and Win11 laptops it runs and quits
normally. There's no sign on their user forum of anyone else
having such a problem.

Can anyone suggest how I could troubleshoot this?

==========

An example - this process started yesterday and is still there
today after the computer being shutdown for the night:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pslist64 -x musescore4

PsList v1.4 - Process information lister
Process and thread information for xxx:

Name Pid VM WS Priv Priv Pk Faults
NonP Page MuseScore4 6596 4851208 192448 149652
384200 181593 50 783
Tid Pri Cswtch State User Time Kernel Time
Elapsed Time
5460 8 8392793 Wait:DelayExec 0:00:00.000 0:00:00.062
44:12:22.952

When I try to kill it with PSKILL, Task Manager, or Process
Explorer I get an Access Denied message:

C:\Users\xxx\Desktop>pskill64 -t 6596

PsKill v1.16 - Terminates processes on local or remote systems

Unable to kill process 6596:
Access is denied.

=====================

Instead of starting the executable, call it in a batch file.
After starting it in a .bat file, follow with a taskkill to
terminate any remanant processes. This only works if the batch
script is paused while the program runs, and continues after the
program exits. If the program loads, but immediately returns
status to look like it exited after it just loaded (but it really
still loaded), this method won't work.

In the batch file, have the commands (you didn't mention the
extension for the executable file, so I assumed .exe):

<path>\musescore4.exe
taskkill.exe /im musescore4.exe /f

/im means image name which is the executable filename that gets
loaded into memory to run, and /f means to force an exit in case
the program became unresponsive which means it won't accept
requests to terminate.

I use a program that captures video streams. It relies on
FFmpeg. Alas, FFmpeg has had a long-time defect of not unloading
when requested, and also of hanging an instance when it become
unresponsive. So, I run the capture program, and follow with a
taskkill on all the ffmpeg.exe processes when I exit the capture
program. The capture program author cannot fix the program. The
author(s) of FFmpeg would have to fix their process becoming
unresponsive (doesn't return status to the caller) or of it
hanging (it doesn't exit).

You might want to give the .bat file a slightly different
filename to remember to call that executable instead of the
original one. Or, you could put the .bat file in a folder with
all other .bat files, and add that folder (e.g., C:\Bath) to the
PATH system environment variable (and before the folder for your
musescore4 program). The same-named .bat file will be found
before the same-named .exe file. If you're only using a shortcut
to run musescore4, just specify the .bat file instead, and you
won't have to be concerned about order of paths found in the PATH
envvar.

Oops, I see you said the remnant process is unkillable. Perhaps
another process keeps restarting it. Perhaps it uses a service to
keep itself loaded. Run service.msc to see if there is a service
for this program. Sometimes 2 processes are used: each monitors
the other process, and restarts it if not found. You can try to
use taskkill on both processes trying to get both killed before
either can restart the other one. Doing so at the command line has
too much delay, even if you use history to call up the last
command to run taskkill again. Put both taskkill commands in a
.bat file, and run the batch file.

Have you tried loading Windows in its safe mode to get rid of all
the other backgrounded processes or services you installed to run
musescore in a clean environment, and then test if the problem
persists?

What about uninstalling the program, delete all its file and
registry remnants, restart Windows (a real restart, not a restore
from hibernate), and test again?

I tried your batch file trick. No joy - because the process can't be
killed, the batch file hands. Oh well, worth a shot.

I've tried all those other tricks. No service, no second process that I
can detect. I thoroughly uninstalled it reinstalled, same behavior.

The one thing that I did that pointed toward success was to use the
Windows Sandbox feature. In the Sandbox, the program can be installed
there and it behaves properly. This suggests that it's something
peculiar to my Windows installation and that the only practical
solution may be to freshly install Windows. I don't relish that idea,
but I may end up doing that in the near future. This is an upgrade from
Windows 7 and it may carry some legacy junk from the distant past.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 3/31/2023 9:54 PM, Nil wrote:

The one thing that I did that pointed toward success was to use the
Windows Sandbox feature. In the Sandbox, the program can be installed
there and it behaves properly. This suggests that it's something
peculiar to my Windows installation and that the only practical
solution may be to freshly install Windows. I don't relish that idea,
but I may end up doing that in the near future. This is an upgrade from Windows 7 and it may carry some legacy junk from the distant past.

I do not see why you could not attempt a Repair Install.

It keeps your programs and user data.

On the minus side, it keeps Registry items.

On the positive side, it should blow away System32
and renew all the contents of that. Windows.old contains
the old System32 materials, as well as some old program contents.
Windows.old is not purely OS stuff. It's a mix.

The question then would be, what can you "stuff in a Registry"
that causes the behavior you are seeing ?

*******

Your sandbox test proves the program is "mortal". If you remove
the floor under its feet, it drops via the normal force of gravity :-)

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 31 Mar 2023, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I tried your batch file trick. No joy - because the process can't
be killed, the batch file hands. Oh well, worth a shot.

And you ran the .bat file under elevated privileges?

I've tried all those other tricks. No service, no second process
that I can detect. I thoroughly uninstalled it reinstalled, same
behavior.

The one thing that I did that pointed toward success was to use
the Windows Sandbox feature. In the Sandbox, the program can be
installed there and it behaves properly. This suggests that it's
something peculiar to my Windows installation and that the only
practical solution may be to freshly install Windows. I don't
relish that idea, but I may end up doing that in the near future.
This is an upgrade from Windows 7 and it may carry some legacy
junk from the distant past.

That's why I mentioned disabling all the startup programs or
restarting Windows in its safe mode. The program has a clean OS
inside the sandbox, but not outside.

Safe mode did not work. Sandbox did.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 31 Mar 2023, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

On 3/31/2023 9:54 PM, Nil wrote:

The one thing that I did that pointed toward success was to use
the Windows Sandbox feature. In the Sandbox, the program can be
installed there and it behaves properly. This suggests that it's
something peculiar to my Windows installation and that the only
practical solution may be to freshly install Windows. I don't
relish that idea, but I may end up doing that in the near future.
This is an upgrade from Windows 7 and it may carry some legacy
junk from the distant past.

I do not see why you could not attempt a Repair Install.

It keeps your programs and user data.

On the minus side, it keeps Registry items.

On the positive side, it should blow away System32
and renew all the contents of that. Windows.old contains
the old System32 materials, as well as some old program contents.
Windows.old is not purely OS stuff. It's a mix.

The question then would be, what can you "stuff in a Registry"
that causes the behavior you are seeing ?

*******

Your sandbox test proves the program is "mortal". If you remove
the floor under its feet, it drops via the normal force of gravity
:-)

That's a good idea, try a repair install first and if that works I can
avoid the pain of a complete fresh install. I've never done a Repair
before but this may be the time.

I think I mentioned that this computer has been running for several
years as Windows 7 up until about 8 months ago when I upgraded to
Windows 10. Over time I messed around with the OS in ways I couldn't
possibly remember now to un-do. I may very well have tweaked my way
into a corner.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

That's why I mentioned disabling all the startup programs or
restarting Windows in its safe mode. The program has a clean OS
inside the sandbox, but not outside.

Safe mode did not work. Sandbox did.

Don't remember if you tried uninstalling the program, cleanup of file
and registry remnants for the program, and then reinstalling it.

Did you check if there were later versions of the audio drivers for your hardware that support Windows 10? I see some threads in their forums
about a user having problems with newer audio drivers, and the user had
to rollback to a prior audio driver. Um, you don't have Windows
configured to allow automatic hardware updates, do you? Even if you
allow software and OS updates (a bit hard to disable, but doable), you
should NEVER let Windows update the hardware drivers. That's something
for which you prepare (save an image backup), and you go check what are
the latest drivers, and install them one at a time with a bit of testing
after the update of each.

Safe mode won't get rid of kernal-mode drivers, and it looks like
MuseScore installs some.

Did Nirsoft's BlueScreenView tell you which was the offending (crashing) component? What you see in Event Viewer is likely the last component
that died, but is often caused by a preceding component on which the
reported crashing component relied.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I think I mentioned that this computer has been running for several
years as Windows 7 up until about 8 months ago when I upgraded to
Windows 10. Over time I messed around with the OS in ways I couldn't
possibly remember now to un-do. I may very well have tweaked my way
into a corner.

Do the vendors for the hardware drivers actually state support for
Windows 10? That drivers from Windows 7 work under Windows 10 doesn't
mean they work properly, fully, or without side effects.

I have tweaked myself into function loss. A tweaker (don't remember
which) suggested I switch from SSL to FIPS, which I did. Thereafter I
could not connect to HTTPS web sites. Since the tweak was within the
last day or two, I remembered it, undid it, and HTTPS connect worked
again. The suggested tweak killed HTTPS access. I don't think I have
that tweaker anymore. I think it started with B. Ah, maybe it was
Belarc Advisor.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 01 Apr 2023, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I think I mentioned that this computer has been running for
several years as Windows 7 up until about 8 months ago when I
upgraded to Windows 10. Over time I messed around with the OS in
ways I couldn't possibly remember now to un-do. I may very well
have tweaked my way into a corner.

Do the vendors for the hardware drivers actually state support for
Windows 10? That drivers from Windows 7 work under Windows 10
doesn't mean they work properly, fully, or without side effects.

I have tweaked myself into function loss. A tweaker (don't
remember which) suggested I switch from SSL to FIPS, which I did.
Thereafter I could not connect to HTTPS web sites. Since the
tweak was within the last day or two, I remembered it, undid it,
and HTTPS connect worked again. The suggested tweak killed HTTPS
access. I don't think I have that tweaker anymore. I think it
started with B. Ah, maybe it was Belarc Advisor.

I think you pointed me toward the cause. I have two audio devices on
this computer, the Realtek one built into the motherboard that I use
for everyday playback, and also an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card
that I use only for recording/playback. I have Musescore4 set up to use
the Realtek, and I assumed it was ignoring the M-Audio. But no. I find
that if I disable the M-Audio in Device Manager before I start
Musescore, it starts and quits the way it should. Eureka!

The M-Audio device is old, the latest drivers are for Windows 7. They
actually work just fine for the many other audio programs on this
computer, including the previous version of Musescore. There's
something about version 4 that doesn't like the M-Audio drivers. I may
try the previous, even older, M-Audio drivers; I don't have high hopes
for that, but it's worth a try. Now that I know this I don't think that
a Windows re-install or Repair will do any good. An acceptable
workaround would be if I can craft a batch file or script that will
disable the device, start Musescore, then re-enable the device after
Musescore quits.

Thanks!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 4/1/2023 4:13 PM, Nil wrote:

On 01 Apr 2023, VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

I think I mentioned that this computer has been running for
several years as Windows 7 up until about 8 months ago when I
upgraded to Windows 10. Over time I messed around with the OS in
ways I couldn't possibly remember now to un-do. I may very well
have tweaked my way into a corner.

Do the vendors for the hardware drivers actually state support for
Windows 10? That drivers from Windows 7 work under Windows 10
doesn't mean they work properly, fully, or without side effects.

I have tweaked myself into function loss. A tweaker (don't
remember which) suggested I switch from SSL to FIPS, which I did.
Thereafter I could not connect to HTTPS web sites. Since the
tweak was within the last day or two, I remembered it, undid it,
and HTTPS connect worked again. The suggested tweak killed HTTPS
access. I don't think I have that tweaker anymore. I think it
started with B. Ah, maybe it was Belarc Advisor.

I think you pointed me toward the cause. I have two audio devices on
this computer, the Realtek one built into the motherboard that I use
for everyday playback, and also an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI card
that I use only for recording/playback. I have Musescore4 set up to use
the Realtek, and I assumed it was ignoring the M-Audio. But no. I find
that if I disable the M-Audio in Device Manager before I start
Musescore, it starts and quits the way it should. Eureka!

The M-Audio device is old, the latest drivers are for Windows 7. They actually work just fine for the many other audio programs on this
computer, including the previous version of Musescore. There's
something about version 4 that doesn't like the M-Audio drivers. I may
try the previous, even older, M-Audio drivers; I don't have high hopes
for that, but it's worth a try. Now that I know this I don't think that
a Windows re-install or Repair will do any good. An acceptable
workaround would be if I can craft a batch file or script that will
disable the device, start Musescore, then re-enable the device after Musescore quits.

Thanks!

Wouldn't the M-Audio be ASIO, and the RealTek would be Windows Mixer ?

ASIO is supposed to be a low-latency driver, but as far as I know,
both it and the Windows Mixer should have something to do with the kernel.

The ASIO sound, shouldn't have the Windows system sounds on it.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 01 Apr 2023, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

On 4/1/2023 4:13 PM, Nil wrote:

I think you pointed me toward the cause. I have two audio devices
on this computer, the Realtek one built into the motherboard that
I use for everyday playback, and also an M-Audio Audiophile 2496
PCI card that I use only for recording/playback. I have
Musescore4 set up to use the Realtek, and I assumed it was
ignoring the M-Audio. But no. I find that if I disable the
M-Audio in Device Manager before I start Musescore, it starts and
quits the way it should. Eureka!

The M-Audio device is old, the latest drivers are for Windows 7.
They actually work just fine for the many other audio programs on
this computer, including the previous version of Musescore.
There's something about version 4 that doesn't like the M-Audio
drivers. I may try the previous, even older, M-Audio drivers; I
don't have high hopes for that, but it's worth a try. Now that I
know this I don't think that a Windows re-install or Repair will
do any good. An acceptable workaround would be if I can craft a
batch file or script that will disable the device, start
Musescore, then re-enable the device after Musescore quits.

Thanks!

Wouldn't the M-Audio be ASIO, and the RealTek would be Windows
Mixer ?

ASIO is supposed to be a low-latency driver, but as far as I know,
both it and the Windows Mixer should have something to do with the
kernel.

The ASIO sound, shouldn't have the Windows system sounds on it.

I've never totally understood this topic and when I get new audio
hardware and software I struggle to get it working. That's one reason I
cling to this old sound card. It may not be state-of-the-art anymore,
but it sounds great and has enough features for me and IT'S WORKING.

As I understand it, the M-Audio AP 2496 can talk to applications
through any of Windows available sound hosts. Windows WASAPI is good
for most things, and the 2496 can use it, but ASIO allows talking
directly to the hardware and can get the lowest possible latency, which
is important for real-time sound-on-sound recording. In this case, I
don't think it's the ASIO drivers per se that are the issue because no
other application has a problem with them, it seems to be the hardware
itself that doesn't play well with this particular application.

Until I find a cure, if ever, my current workaround is to use a batch
file that disables that sound card, then starts Musescore, then when I
quit Musescore it reenables the card. It leaves an ugly terminal window
hanging around while I use Musescore, but otherwise seems to do the
job.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Nil <rednoise9@rednoise9.invalid> wrote:

Until I find a cure, if ever, my current workaround is to use a batch
file that disables that sound card, then starts Musescore, then when
I quit Musescore it reenables the card. It leaves an ugly terminal
window hanging around while I use Musescore, but otherwise seems to
do the job.

Use a shortcut to run the .bat file. Configure the shortcut properties
to minimize the console window. The window is still there, but it
minimized, so all you see is the taskbar button while the batch is
running.

Haven't tried this, but what about having the shortcut run the
schtasks.exe command to run a scheduled event you defined in Task
Scheduler? The scheduled event runs your musescore.bat file, but no
console window opens for it. The shortcut will temporarily open a
command window to run the schtasks.exe console program, but the moment
schtasks is done starting the scheduled event then it unloads and its
window disappears. I would still define the shortcut to minimize its
window, but the taskbar button for it would appear for however long
schtasks takes to run, and when schtasks is done (all it does is start
the scheduled task that runs the .bat file) it unloads, and so does the [hidden/minimized] window along with the taskbar button. I wouldn't use schtasks to define the event, just to run it. Easier to use the GUI
front end of Task Scheduler to define the event. The assumption is when
Task Scheduler starts the event to run MuseScore that the event ends
when you exit MuseScore, run the rest of the commands in the .bat file,
and the shell exits in which the .bat file was running.

Another choice is to use VBS (VisualBasic Script). You create a .vbs
file to run MuseScore which has:

CreateObject("Wscript.Shell").Run """" Wscript.Arguments(0) & """", 0, False

In a shortcut, you run wscript.exe which opens the .vbs file, like:

wscript.exe "<path>\musescore.vbs" "<path>\musescore.bat"

You're telling wscript to run the .vbs file which is passed the .bat
file as an argument. Configure the shortcut to minimize the console
window. You'll see the taskbar button only momentarily to run wscript
which exits (its window and taskbar button disappear) after starting the musescore.bat file.

Another choice is to use Nirsoft's nircmd.exe tool, like a shortcut
(with minimized window) that runs:

nircmd.exe win hide ititle "<path>\musescore.bat"

nircmd.exe doesn't provide any help (i.e., no data blocks inside the
executable that gets sent to stdout using /? as a command line
argument). For help on using nircmd, see:

https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/nircmd.html

Again, you'll see a taskbar button for the duration of nircmd (which you
can minimize as a property of a shortcut so the window is hidden), but
that disappears as soon as nircmd exits after starting the batch file.

Since the window is not present when running the .bat file, there had
better not be any user input expected by the batch script; else, you
won't be able to hit a key to get past Pause, or any other batch command
that requires user input.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)