• Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

    From nospam@21:1/5 to mayayana@invalid.nospam on Fri Aug 31 10:15:42 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <pmbgni$u6f$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
    <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

    Interesting development for anyone who got
    suckered into renting Adobe software. The next
    update, according to a blog post, will apparently
    only run on Win10 greater than v. 1607:

    the update to 1803 is free and fixes a shitload of problems 1607 and
    certainly 1511 had. there's no reason not to update.

    https://theblog.adobe.com/upcoming-changes-to-creative-cloud-os-support-for-wi
    ndows-and-mac/

    In other words, you can keep renting. You just
    won't get any of the new features you're paying for.

    nonsense.

    And if you quit then don't forget to first back
    up all your work locally from that famous "free"
    cloud storage, or you'll lose it.

    also wrong.

    *all* of your work is stored locally. storing in the cloud is
    *optional* and is not intended to replace local storage.

    it would help if you actually understood what you're criticizing.

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 31 13:57:17 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <pmbti4$kgp$1@dont-email.me>, Neil <neil@myplaceofwork.com>
    wrote:


    Users that store their work files
    solely in anyone's cloud will eventually learn the errors of their ways.

    more accurately, solely in a single location.

    however, given a choice, a one copy in the cloud is safer than a one
    copy on a local hard drive.

    ideally, always have multiple copies, with at least one offsite.

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to nobody@nowhere.invalid on Fri Aug 31 22:31:28 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <pmcskt$cd4$1@news.albasani.net>, David E. Ross <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

    the difference is that a cloud service will have multiple redundant
    copies in their data centers with multiple redundant data centers.

    while not impossible (nothing is 100%), the chances that all copies in
    all data centers are destroyed and the service itself disappears
    without a trace is much less than the chance of your single hard drive failing, or destroyed to fire or flood, or stolen.

    Do you not remember what happened to Megaupload?

    do you not know why it was shut down? it was intended for hosting and distributing pirated content, not long term storage.

    amazon, google, microsoft, apple, dropbox, adobe and other cloud
    services aren't going to suddenly disappear without a trace.

    some services have shut down, but they've announced it *before* it
    happened and gave users ample time to move their data elsewhere.

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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to David E. Ross on Sat Sep 1 00:07:59 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "David E. Ross" <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote

    | Do you not remember what happened to Megaupload?
    |

    That's a good point. And not only because of
    the implications of losing your data. Storing files
    on their server, especially without paying for it,
    allows them to claim co-ownership. There have been
    a number of cases already that have dealt with
    that tricky issue. Here's a case from 12 years ago:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060509223836/http://news.com.com/Police+blotter+Judge+orders+Gmail+disclosure/2100-1047_3-6050295.html

    A subpoena demands gmail from an account, including
    all deleted gmail. They didn't subpoena the person.
    They subpoenaed Google.
    A similar case involved the US gov't claiming they
    should have access to EU email on MS servers in
    Ireland.

    The cloud trend amplifies that issue. Neither tech
    companies nor governments have an interest in
    you owning your data. If your data is always editied
    by their product and stored on their server it can
    be claimed that your files are actually something
    like an entertainment service provded by them.
    That's essentially what Google claims now with
    gmail. Megaupload was a similar case. The files were
    treated as the property of MU and seized, despite
    much of it being the legal property of customers.

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  • From Neil@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Sat Sep 1 07:54:09 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 9/1/2018 12:23 AM, Mayayana wrote:

    Neil pretty much says that
    anyone who doesn't go out now to buy Win10 and rent
    PS CC is a non-pro loser. :)

    I said no such thing. If you want to have a conversation, it's not a
    good idea to lie about what the other individuals are saying.

    Come to think of it, no one did say they find it more
    economical.

    If you could do elementary math, you would see that the CC model is far
    more economical for pros. To continue to argue otherwise is simply
    exposing your inability to do that math.

    Other users have many other low-cost graphic app options, even from
    Adobe, which has also been pointed out, so there is no rational
    justification for criticizing the CC model to those users either.

    --
    best regards,

    Neil

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  • From Neil@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Sat Sep 1 07:37:38 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 8/31/2018 11:54 PM, Mayayana wrote:
    "Neil" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote

    | > It won't surprise them that they no longer get
    | > what they're paying for? Getting regular updates
    | > is pretty much the only reason for rental software.
    | >
    | They are *not* paying for the _new features_ of software versions
    | incompatible with their computers.
    |

    They will have to continue to pay the rental fee
    if they want to keep using it. But they won't get
    the new features. Yes. You don't get it?

    When that arrangement becomes financially impractical, or if they
    require the new features they'll most likely make a change. The reality
    is that for most, the cost of the "rental" is far less than the cost of "ownership" (that never existed in the first place). You don't get it?

    --
    best regards,

    Neil

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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Sat Sep 1 13:08:31 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "pyotr filipivich" <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote

    | I've been using TaxAct for many years. This latest version (2017)
    | will not work if you do not have the latest updated version of
    | Internet Explorer 11. Deal breaker, and the end of a satisfied
    | customer.

    They do say they accept other browsers, though.

    Personally I don't get the tax products. As a
    self-employed person it would cost me $100 to
    have TaxAct do my taxes, at very little cost to
    them. Almost all profit. Since it's online they don't
    even have to box a CD. Wouldn't it be cheaper to
    have a real person at H&R Block?

    I think it usually takes me about 3-4 hours to
    get my records together, do the math, and fill out
    the forms. Since I have last year to work from
    it's not a big job. The worst part is the MA state
    forms, which are not editable PDFs! I end up doing
    screenshots, opening those in Paint Shop Pro,
    using the text tool to fill them out, then putting
    them back into the PDF.

    That's a pain, but most of the work is stuff
    I'd have to do anyway, even if I paid someone
    to do my taxes. They'd be charging me $100 just
    to do the math and look up possible deductions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mark Lloyd@21:1/5 to nospam on Sat Sep 1 16:22:14 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 09/01/2018 11:02 AM, nospam wrote:

    [snip]

    nope. it's under *your* control. you can upload/download at any time,
    for any reason.

    That's a VERY special cloud server. You can download even when the
    company went out of business last year and the server has been
    disassembled for months, and the hard drives recycled.

    it's possible that internet access might be interrupted, however, it's
    also possible (and more likely) than the local hard drive fails or is
    damaged due to fire/flood/etc.

    I find human action (like what can happen with a cloud server) to be
    something very different than a natural incident (fire/flood/etc.).
    People are different and that doesn't make either position any better or
    worse.

    Of course whichever ONE is better, both are even better than either.

    [snip]

    One thing I remember from years ago, is to have at least TWO backups (on
    different media). People often don't seem to know that anymore. You
    could add an offsite backup (but be sure to consider the restore
    process. You don't have a backup if you can't restore).

    yep.

    And I would add, at least one backup (obviously not always the same one) offline at ALL times.

    it's called the 3-2-1 rule: three copies, on two different mediums,
    with one offsite.

    It was more recently that I heard 3-2-1, and cloud backup was a
    possibility, but yes.

    that's a good starting point, however, the more valuable the data, the
    more copies there should be.

    Yes. Also, at least one backup that can be restored quickly on a new
    hard drive (no software installation first). It's likely when you really
    need a backup, it's when you really want to use the PC.

    --
    Mark Lloyd
    http://notstupid.us/

    "Jesus got stuck in the chimney flue. Jesus got stuck, we don't know
    what to do. Now that virgin-born Jew is turning blue, Cause Jesus got
    stuck in the flue."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 1 18:26:17 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <bqDiD.99$Wt1.42@fx20.iad>, Mark Lloyd <not@mail.invalid>
    wrote:

    nope. it's under *your* control. you can upload/download at any time,
    for any reason.

    That's a VERY special cloud server. You can download even when the
    company went out of business last year and the server has been
    disassembled for months, and the hard drives recycled.

    straw man.

    amazon is still very much in business, soon to become the second
    trillion dollar company, and showing *no* indication whatsoever of
    going out of business any time soon. aws is *extremely* reliable.

    google, microsoft, apple, dropbox, backblaze, carbonite and many others
    aren't about to go out of business either any time soon.

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  • From 123456789@21:1/5 to Roger Blake on Sat Sep 1 22:35:19 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 9/1/2018 9:34 PM, Roger Blake wrote:

    When you rely on the "cloud" you lose control of your data. You don't
    know where it is being kept, how it is being backed up, how many
    copies there are, where it will be copied to, who will have access to
    it under what conditions, or even if you will have access to it at
    any specific point in the future. I'm just not willing to trust
    Microsoft, Google, etc. with my stuff.

    I use the cloud (Google Drive) as a backup for my local files. That way
    if I lose them in some calamity (such as a house fire) they can be
    replaced. And likewise in the unlikely event that the cloud fails I
    still have my local files. I also encrypt my sensitive files in case
    some Google employee should decide to pick me out of the other hundreds
    of millions of customers to spy on...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to Paul on Sun Sep 2 08:08:08 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

    | My experience is, that modern drives give plenty of
    | hints, before they die on you. If you were hoping to
    | scare people, good luck with that.
    |
    I replaced one for a friend recently. Win8 laptop.
    She was laying in bed, uploading photos, and it quit.
    I don't know why, but my guess is that blankets
    were blocking the back vents and it overheated.

    I once had a whole machine go from what I
    think was a power surge. It happened at about
    the time (2001?) when the East Coast had a
    massive blackout. My home state, MA, had a
    system that triggered it to break off from the
    grid when it sensed failure. My computer suddenly
    rebooted and came back blank.

    Not that I intend to lend credibility to nospam....
    but personally I think it's worthwhile to always run
    a redundant disk. It's not expensive. But of course
    that also requires using a desktop. A laptop is
    really just a portable, temporary encampment, but
    many people no longer use them that way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to rogblake@iname.invalid on Sun Sep 2 07:57:04 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On Sun, 2 Sep 2018 04:34:04 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
    <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:


    The so-called "cloud" is really marketing babble for a return to the
    way we did computing 40-50 years ago, where you had terminals accessing >remote servers where data and applications were actually stored.


    Yes. Well put.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ant@21:1/5 to 12345@12345.com on Sun Sep 2 20:00:57 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In alt.comp.os.windows-10 123456789 <12345@12345.com> wrote:
    On 9/1/2018 9:34 PM, Roger Blake wrote:

    When you rely on the "cloud" you lose control of your data. You don't
    know where it is being kept, how it is being backed up, how many
    copies there are, where it will be copied to, who will have access to
    it under what conditions, or even if you will have access to it at
    any specific point in the future. I'm just not willing to trust
    Microsoft, Google, etc. with my stuff.

    I use the cloud (Google Drive) as a backup for my local files. That way
    if I lose them in some calamity (such as a house fire) they can be
    replaced. And likewise in the unlikely event that the cloud fails I
    still have my local files. I also encrypt my sensitive files in case
    some Google employee should decide to pick me out of the other hundreds
    of millions of customers to spy on...

    What do you use to encrypt your datas before uploading to the cloud?
    --
    Quote of the Week: "For example, the tiny ant, a creature of great
    industry, drags with its mouth whatever it can, and adds it to the heap
    which she is piling up, not unaware nor careless of the future."
    --Horace, Satires, Book I, I, 33.
    Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
    /\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx
    / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
    | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
    \ _ /
    ( )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to Paul on Sun Sep 2 22:03:09 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

    | Of course a boulder can fall on your house, crushing
    | your hard drive. You should keep your backup drive
    | in the shed :-)
    |

    You're not going to believe this... That's the
    last time I put backup in the attic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Roger Blake@21:1/5 to nospam on Mon Sep 3 04:02:46 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 2018-09-02, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    no it definitely isn't a return to that. you obviously don't understand
    what the cloud means or offers.

    Yes, it is. I was working in the computer industry back when things
    were done that way. (Were you?) Conceptually it is the same thing.

    nonsense. users have full control of their data and can access it at
    any time, they know exactly where it's being kept (the cloud service)

    Utter and complete bilge. It's amazing to me that anyone can even
    make such an ignorant statement.

    only because you don't understand what it is and how it works.

    I understand it completely. It is obvious that you do not.

    -- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

    NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
    Don't talk to cops! -- http://www.DontTalkToCops.com
    Badges don't grant extra rights -- http://www.CopBlock.org -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to Roger Blake on Mon Sep 3 10:02:07 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "Roger Blake" <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote
    | On 2018-09-02, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    | > no it definitely isn't a return to that. you obviously don't understand
    | > what the cloud means or offers.
    |
    | Yes, it is. I was working in the computer industry back when things
    | were done that way. (Were you?) Conceptually it is the same thing.
    |

    Aren't both things partially true? I don't think
    the comparison to "the old days" is really very
    helpful.

    The current cloud is about converting computing
    itself into a retail rental service and converting the
    Internet into interactive cable TV. Mainframes were
    a structural necessity. Cloud comprises a number of
    strategies to sell you computing, seizing control of
    the functionality to sell it back to you. Even online
    software activation is a form of cloud. As is the case
    here with Adobe software. It's not running remotely.
    There's no real "cloud" at all. It's just crippleware
    that has to be allowed call home, so that you can
    be forced to pay rent. But that rental *is* cloud.

    In that sense, cloud is an insidious scam. But cloud
    is also a lot of online services that people want. Backup
    storage at dropbox. Image sharing at sites like imgur
    or postimage.org. Facebook. They all offered to provide
    a convenient service and people jumped at it. Just
    as people jumped at AOL rather than figure out the
    Internet for themselves. And just as graphics workers
    jumped at Adobe rental because it was the path of
    least resistance.

    We can't really separate those two aspects. People
    are walking into the jaws of the lion because they
    get something from it that they want. Also because
    they don't understand what they're giving up. Also
    because the changes are hidden to a great extent.
    (The average Win10 user has no idea that the licensing
    model has radically changed. Passive product
    activation was a stroke of genius on the part of
    Microsoft.) It's all of those things.

    If you focus only on the idea that it's someone
    else's computer then you're likely to get your
    land stolen while you argue about where the
    propety line is.

    One other note: nospam, in addition to being a
    compulsive arguer, is an Apple fanatic. Apple is
    arguably today's AOL. They sell pre-digested
    computing at steep prices to people who want
    convenience. If you have an iPhone it's all backed
    up by Apple. You don't have to think about it. For
    the average Apple fan like nospam, who doesn't
    even properly understand the idea of a file system,
    what's not to like? They pay a thousand bucks for a
    phone, but they get a shiny, futuristic gizmo that does
    100 things and they don't have to understand *anything*.
    They can even flush it down the toilet. That will cost
    another $1,000, but aside from that there's no loss
    or hassle. That adorable picture of Junior trying to
    comb the cat's hair is still there!

    All Hail Lord Jobs. Who do I make the check out to?

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  • From 123456789@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Mon Sep 3 08:02:00 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 9/3/2018 7:02 AM, Mayayana wrote:

    Apple is arguably today's AOL. They sell pre-digested computing at
    steep prices to people who want convenience.

    There are Android phones in the same price range that offer the same convenience.

    If you have an iPhone it's all backed up by Apple.

    Likewise with premium Android manufacturers.

    You don't have to think about it. For the average Apple fan

    Likewise for the average Android fan.

    doesn't even properly understand the idea of a file system, what's
    not to like?

    Other than us geeks most don't care about the file system.

    They pay a thousand bucks for a phone, but they get a shiny,
    futuristic gizmo that does 100 things and they don't have to
    understand *anything*.

    The new (Android) Samsung phone is $1000+.

    All Hail Lord Jobs. Who do I make the check out to?

    Do I hear Jealousy??

    BTW 1: Being from a mixed family (Android AND iStuff) I don't have an ax
    to grind either way.

    BTW 2: To keep this somewhat on topic, while I own a premium $1300 W10
    laptop I am posting this on a $150 W10 tablet. Draw your own comparisons...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From B00ze@21:1/5 to nospam on Tue Sep 4 22:50:56 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 2018-08-31 23:57, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    In article <pmcuif$h95$1@dont-email.me>, B00ze <B00ze64@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    And if you quit then don't forget to first back
    up all your work locally from that famous "free"
    cloud storage, or you'll lose it.

    Never really understood that.

    that much is clear, nor does the person to whom you're responding.

    What I meant is that I do not understand what CC has that Dropbox
    doesn't have. Does it allow multiple people to edit the same graphic at
    the same time? I guess some graphic shops don't have anything else to
    protect than graphics, but even then, it kinda smells like Adobe are
    trying to lock you into their ecosystem - can you access Creative Cloud
    from Paint Shop Pro? Or from Paint.NET?

    in fact, you can disconnect from the internet and continue to edit
    photos, create brochures, etc. it does need to ping adobe every 30-90
    days to verify payment, but that's it.

    All Cloud syncs work that way, unless you enable a feature where this
    isn't the case, but does CC expose itself via the filesystem, so you can
    access the stuff from any app?

    nothing is lost if you stop paying, other than not being able to use
    the apps you are no longer paying for. however, some apps will still
    work without payment, but with some features disabled.

    That's good, at least you can still access the software...

    numerous non-adobe apps can read adobe's files, so there is no lock-in,
    or just export them to another format.

    If I want cloud storage I will want it for
    all files, e.g. not only for Adobe-edited pictures, so why the hell
    would I want to use Creative Cloud Storage?

    because creative cloud apps running on multiple devices and platforms
    and with multiple users can work seamlessly with adobe's cloud.

    Yeah, if you can do collaborative stuff, then yes, it is probably useful
    to some people. For the home user like me tho, CC is just not
    attractive, nor is renting software unless it's really cheap - per-use
    price would be better for me, seeing as I use something like Excel 3
    times a year (never use PhotoShop, don't have it.)

    nothing prevents you from using other cloud services, but you may lose
    some functionality if you do. also, nothing prevents you from using
    more than one cloud service either, or none at all.

    Best Regards,

    --
    ! _\|/_ Sylvain / B00ze64@hotmail.com
    ! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
    oO-( )-Oo "Fascinating." Spock figures out the Energizer bunny.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From B00ze@21:1/5 to nospam on Wed Sep 5 21:50:31 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 2018-09-05 10:49, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    [snip]

    cc is targeted at pro users, which you say you are not.

    photoshop elements, the consumer version of photoshop, typically about
    $50 or so street price and a one-time purchase, is more than enough for casual use. the features it lacks compared to the full photoshop isn't anything most non-pros will miss (or even know what they're for). it's
    also often bundled with hardware, making it free (assuming you want
    said hardware).

    some non-pros may choose the full photoshop and some pros might choose elements, while some might choose something else entirely.

    nothing is perfect for everyone's needs.

    Ohhh, there is a home version of PS and it's not rented? Nice, I shall
    look into that (acquiring some PS skill would be a good thing.)

    Thanks, Regards,

    --
    ! _\|/_ Sylvain / B00ze64@hotmail.com
    ! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
    oO-( )-Oo Five out of four people have trouble with fractions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From B00ze@21:1/5 to nospam on Wed Sep 5 22:04:45 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 2018-09-05 10:49, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    In article <pmnhdd$la6$1@dont-email.me>, B00ze <B00ze64@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    I'm not sure why they are not more flexible, it's certain they make
    enough money to support multiple OS versions,

    a major reason is because the functionality that they want to offer
    that takes full advantage of modern hardware requires something more
    recent than win7/8.

    You can always code your own. Sure, it becomes simpler to use new
    Microsoft APIs as they come out, but it's always possible to support
    older OSes, it just becomes hard to keep everything in sync (and
    expensive, but Adobe makes lots of money.)

    another reason is that the majority of cc customers no longer use
    win7/8, so there's very little impact in dropping support for it.

    Yeah, I think you are right here.

    meanwhile, photoshop elements 2018 supports as far back as win7 sp1: <https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/system-requirements.html>

    Yes, I will look into that, it sounds interesting, I need to lean layers
    lol; I'm a pixel type painter (remember Deluxe Paint or Brilliance (on
    Amiga,)) always have trouble with layers...

    but you have to admit, it
    is HARD to get Win10 to stay put - most people WILL be running the
    latest Win10 whether they want to or not...

    that part is very true.

    Yup, Adobe are not really punishing themselves by dropping Windows 10
    "version 1" support.

    I wonder how good Elements is bug-wise; hopefully it is closer to
    Acrobat DC than to their previous Acrobat versions which were quite
    buggy. I find the Reader DC updater does a good job keeping the product
    updated - it's too bad Adobe still sells various "versions" of Acrobat
    Pro (e.g. Acrobat 2015, Acrobat 2017, etc,) they should sell only
    "Acrobat Pro" and that's it, because they need to constantly update it
    as it keeps breaking when Microsoft changes things...

    Best Regards,

    --
    ! _\|/_ Sylvain / B00ze64@hotmail.com
    ! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
    oO-( )-Oo Do bl Sp ce is a v ry saf me hod of driv compr s ion!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to mayayana@invalid.nospam on Thu Sep 6 18:59:57 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <pmrbqf$a1j$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
    <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

    I doubt Adobe *really*
    needs Win10-specific functionality for image editing.

    for basic image editing (e.g., colour balance, exposure adjustment),
    that is true.

    for advanced functionality, that is not true.

    they didn't cut it off at win10 just for the hell of it.

    there are features in win10 that adobe wants to use that do not exist
    in earlier versions, making it impossible to continue to support win7/8
    and provide those features.

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 7 10:24:11 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In message <pmsvi1$ge6$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
    writes:
    []
    You know that Photoshop CS2 is available "free", right ?
    ("Free" in the "What were they thinking" sense.)

    When Adobe shut down the license server for CS2, they put
    copies of the software on a server, plus special license keys to activate it. >The activation server might have shut down Mar2013, on
    software issued in 2008, making the software perhaps
    ten years old today.
    []
    https://www.techspot.com/downloads/4948-adobe-creative-suite-free.html

    Back when the Adobe server was running, I got this.

    PhSp_CS2_English__photoshop_CS2_1045-1412-5685-1654-6343-1431.exe
    356,583,291 bytes
    SHA1: 1EDFD80947F4A89A0D80C94AB7CAF3C2BE7224C5

    Using the SHA1 in a search, I got this link.
    Verify the size and hash.

    http://download.adobe.com/pub/adobe/magic/creativesuite/CS2_EOL/PHSP/PhS >p_CS2_English.exe
    []
    I got (on 2013-1-15, SHA-1s):
    CreativeSuiteCS2Disc1.exe 375,638,402 1538166046E59DB6098F75C3196E84AD9310DEA1
    ...Disc2... 427,451,410 D06911267603474B43F3F39E4B00029787173962
    ...Disc3... 346,374,144 54BA48723D657E4A86903ED2C876381488C8F945
    CS_2.0_WWE_Extras_1.exe 431,239,168 1C6CC05D49244ED1417B3E2C3136D4FD0B7F57E0
    VCS2.zip 470,962,176 ECEDF63053CC0B059B805C296E9047E08E7E81EB

    I've never actually installed it (them?), just seemed a good idea at the
    time. Is the one you show above included in those, or something
    different?
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Diplomacy is the art of letting someone have your way.

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  • From B00ze@21:1/5 to Neil on Fri Sep 7 23:45:38 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 2018-09-07 09:48, Neil <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    On 9/6/2018 10:53 PM, B00ze wrote:
    On 2018-09-05 22:38, Neil <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote:

    On 9/5/2018 10:04 PM, B00ze wrote:

    I've had that, where PDF's don't load - the last one was: This
    document is using a Korean encoding and I don't support that (Acrobat
    PRO was not complaining, but Reader refused to render the document.)
    However, my client being a very large organization, we also get issues
    with all the various PDF Plugins (in Office or in IE) and these break
    the minute a new Office is released. The latest bug with Acrobat
    Reader is the cursor - for some reason we do not yet understand, it is
    sometimes a black square instead of an arrow when the mouse is inside
    the Acrobat windows. And forget about decent error messages - That one
    with the "Korean Encoding" is most likely NOT the real issue...

    One would have to know PostScript and the PDF format to know the actual problem. On one hand, these have always been standards published by
    Adobe. On the other, most users are not programmers. Documents with bad
    PDF code are not rare, though, and they can lead to a number of odd
    reactions by Acrobat. I've never seen a "black square" replacing the
    cursor, so I don't know what the cause may be there other than saying
    that cursor styles are typically OS functions and I don't see any access
    to cursor styles in Acrobat.

    I tried to code PostScript a looong time ago, it is a strange "stack"
    language, I never understood it lol. The cursor in Acrobat is custom,
    it's not handled by the OS, hence the issue...

    As for Elements, it is capable of more than most casual users need.
    However, there are other apps in the same price range as Elements that
    have the capabilities of the full version of Photoshop, but with very
    different user interfaces.

    My interface of choice was Brilliance, but it was never ported to PC.
    Besides, the goal of getting Elements is to learn the PS UI ;-)

    I don't find Element's UI to be all that informative about PS. Both use
    a fairly standard menu structure, but the feature sets are different
    enough that only a small number of items will have the same menu
    locations in both apps.

    If you prefer, it's to understand how PS and Layers work. Hopefully they
    work the same in both programs. I'm pretty sure the extra features of
    full PhotoShop are too much for me.

    Regards,

    --
    ! _\|/_ Sylvain / B00ze64@hotmail.com
    ! (o o) Member:David-Suzuki-Fdn/EFF/Red+Cross/SPCA/Planetary-Society
    oO-( )-Oo Humans were created by water to transport it uphill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 8 03:49:50 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    In article <pmvuj1$vli$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
    wrote:


    If you prefer, it's to understand how PS and Layers work. Hopefully they work the same in both programs. I'm pretty sure the extra features of
    full PhotoShop are too much for me.

    Photoshop has layers.

    GIMP has layers.

    photoshop has adjustment layers

    gimp does not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rene Lamontagne@21:1/5 to Nil on Wed Sep 12 08:57:34 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 09/12/2018 1:56 AM, Nil wrote:
    On 11 Sep 2018, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote in alt.windows7.general:

    I still use PSP 7.01 as me Main graphics program, It still works
    on Windows 10 and does everything I need, Gotta love it.

    My go-to image editor was Paint Shop Pro 9.01. But when I migrated from
    my old XP clunker to this new fancy-schmancy Win7-64 computer earlier
    this year I found that that version of PSP doesn't work. It must be the 64-bitness of it, because it does work on a Win7-32 computer here. So
    for now I have it installed in an XP Virtualbox. It's quite
    inconvenient. Maybe I'll dig out my old PSP7 discs and give it a try -
    that version did most of what I need. I hope they're not floppies!


    My PSP 7 is on a single CD.

    Rene

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  • From Nil@21:1/5 to Rene Lamontagne on Wed Sep 12 13:27:17 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 12 Sep 2018, Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

    My PSP 7 is on a single CD.

    That's my recolection as well. I seem to recall that there are also a
    couple of update patch files, which I think I saved, too.

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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to Neil on Wed Sep 12 16:35:33 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "Neil" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote
    | >
    | > | > Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same
    | > | > reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and
    | > | > a handful of specialized functions desired by people who
    | > | > work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A
    | > | > fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are
    | > | > all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard
    | > | > those are the only programs to buy.
    | > | >
    | > | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers
    | > | should buy programs they don't know because...?
    | > |
    | >
    | > Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite.
    | >
    | I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*,
    | which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely,
    | they'll buy the programs they know.
    |

    You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that
    with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the
    software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS.
    But that's not true for most of the people who buy
    those things. They're paying far too much for functionality
    they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper --
    just because they asked around and heard MS Office
    or PS is the official program to get.

    | > And since when are adult ed courses to teach
    | > professional skills?
    | >
    | Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are
    | from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree
    | in an area that they can't find employment.
    |

    No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed.
    Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school,
    typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen
    have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local
    high school in my town offers classes.

    I just looked at their current offerings. It's even worse
    than I thought:

    Advanced Photo Management on Apple Devices
    (How to find, organize your photos.)

    Intro To Photos on an iPhone

    Intro to Photoshop
    (Interestingly, this course is for PS CS5, pre-installed
    on Windows computers, but is described as relevant
    ot CS4/5/6/CC and Macs. So at least people don't
    have to sign up for CC rental in order to take the class.)

    There are also course for selling on EBay, using
    MS Excel, "All About Alexa", and creating a website
    on Wordpress.
    Strikingly, these are mostly "consumer" classes.
    How to use gadgets or services. Image editing? No.
    HTML? No. Spreadsheets? No. Yet this is under the
    heading of "Computers/Tech".

    | You're describing casual learners

    Yes. Dawn breaks on Marblehead.

    | > Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you
    | > know Edit -> Select All in one program then you
    | > know it for all programs.
    | >
    | You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none
    | that are unaware of such matters.
    |

    Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know
    any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food?

    Most of the people I know haven't noticed those
    details. They turn on their computer, cross their
    fingers, do what they need to do, then shut down.
    A lot of people don't even know cut/copy/paste.
    Most haven't been exposed to the concept of
    choosing to install software that's not on their
    computer.

    The woman I live with started out with MS Word
    for DOS. She was using computers before I knew
    how to switch on a computer. But I have to show
    her these things. I have to show her again when
    she uses a different program.

    I think that when you get adept with computers
    it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
    took me months to get the hang of image editing.
    Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
    dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
    For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
    have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
    is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
    than they have to.

    The class above about photos on Macs is a good
    example. 4 hours. $90. They teach how to find your
    photos, figure out where they're stored, whether
    they're in the cloud... In the second class you'll figure
    out how to get a photo from your phone to your Mac
    and use an Apple program called Photos to order
    prints from Apple. :)

    These people are sitting ducks, being exploited
    "left and right", mostly because they have no idea
    of the kinds of things you consider to be the ABCs of
    computing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Nil@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Wed Sep 12 17:01:22 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote in alt.windows7.general:

    That shouldn't matter. I wonder if there might just
    be some minor glitch. Maybe I'll try setting up
    PSP5 on my Win7-64 box and see what happens.
    Sometimes older software is made with bad assumptions.
    Example: We were talking about this recently somewhere.
    Visual Studio 6 works fine on Win7, but it assumes msjava.dll
    is present because MS had their own version of Java
    back then and I think there was a J++ part to VS. The
    fix: Create a dummy, 0-byte file in System named
    msjava.dll. :)

    I fooled around with PSP 9 a lot and could never make it work. As I
    recall, the issue was that it would look like it was about to start but
    the interface would never appear, though it would show as a running
    process. I found lots of reports about other people with the exact same complaint. Nobody seemed to have a solution. Then I gave up and went
    with the Virtualbox solution, which is far from ideal.

    PSP 7 is a viable next best choice, so I'll try that soon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Nil@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Wed Sep 12 17:07:27 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote in alt.windows7.general:

    There will be some aspects that don't work, though.
    For instance PSP5 has TWAIN drivers to import scans.
    But most scanners now Microsoft's built-in WIA system.
    My current HP printer works that way. Somehow the
    TWAIN import started working, but at first I couldn't
    get it to connect. (The WIA works OK, but it won't
    connect to PSP because PSP5 is too old to recognize
    it. Instead I have to use the somewhat daffy HP
    utility that wants me to save a JPG or PDF file, as
    though it's assuming I want an email attachment
    from the scan.)

    I never used the scan import feature, so that's not a problem. I recall
    that PSP 9's print preview feature never worked right on any flavor of
    Windows 7, but that wasn't a big deal for me, either.

    I've been using Paint Show Pro since, I think, version 3. It always had
    some annoying quirk or another, but the functionality and price always
    kept me using it until Jasc died.

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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to Nil on Thu Sep 13 08:07:07 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    "Nil" <rednoise9@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote

    |
    | I installed Paint Shop Pro 7.01, then applied a patch I had save to
    | take it to 7.02. It will be a couple of weeks before I can spend any
    | time with it, but at least it starts and runs and I can open some .PSP
    | files.
    |

    I guess that's a good reminder never to save to
    proprietary formats. I know those can save undo
    steps, but I've never come across any kind of undo
    option that I might want to save. In other words,
    by the time I'm saving a file I know I want it as it is.
    I usually save BMP or TIF. (The latter only to save
    space.)

    | I also found a copy of PSP 8 that I had forgotten I had. I think I
    | recall that it was buggy and that PSP 9 was much, much better. But I'll
    | try it out sometime.


    I bought 7 or 8. I'm not sure which. But I've
    never really used it. The GUI was so much
    more busy than 5, with very little added
    functionality that was useful. But to be
    honest I didn't give it much of a chance.
    I lost my temper when I came across something
    like a toolbar button to paste assorted GIFs. :)

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  • From Neil@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Thu Sep 13 07:59:05 2018
    XPost: alt.comp.os.windows-10, alt.windows7.general

    On 9/12/2018 4:35 PM, Mayayana wrote:
    "Neil" <neil@myplaceofwork.com> wrote
    | >
    | > | > Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same
    | > | > reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and
    | > | > a handful of specialized functions desired by people who
    | > | > work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A
    | > | > fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are
    | > | > all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard
    | > | > those are the only programs to buy.
    | > | >
    | > | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers
    | > | should buy programs they don't know because...?
    | > |
    | >
    | > Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite.
    | >
    | I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*,
    | which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely,
    | they'll buy the programs they know.
    |

    You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that
    with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the
    software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS.
    But that's not true for most of the people who buy
    those things. They're paying far too much for functionality
    they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper --
    just because they asked around and heard MS Office
    or PS is the official program to get.

    I doubt that "most people" buy pro-level Adobe products for any reason,
    as they have no use for them. OTOH, almost all corporate workers use MS
    Office, not just secretaries. It would be hard to weed out those who
    have no benefit from using that vs. some freeware, so I'd not refer to
    those folks as "suckers".


    | > And since when are adult ed courses to teach
    | > professional skills?
    | >
    | Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are
    | from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree
    | in an area that they can't find employment.
    |

    No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed.
    Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school,
    typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen
    have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local
    high school in my town offers classes.

    As Wolf pointed out, your concept of "Adult ed" has no relevance. Who do
    you think already has a 4-year degree, other than 'Young Sheldon'? I've
    already described the offerings that qualify directly as "Adult Ed", so
    you can just re-read it if you aren't clear about the meaning.

    | > Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you
    | > know Edit -> Select All in one program then you
    | > know it for all programs.
    | >
    | You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none
    | that are unaware of such matters.
    |

    Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know
    any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food?

    ???

    Most of the people I know haven't noticed those
    details.

    I hang around adults, and they've been using computers for years, if not decades, so such things as menu options are not new to them. YMMV.

    --
    best regards,

    Neil

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