• BBSing on CP/M

    From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to All on Wed May 26 12:30:42 2021
    Anyone use a CP/M machine for BBSing? What terminal program do you use? I've settled on QTerm as it has VT100 support built in. However screen clearing doesn't seem to work with Mystic's pipe CL. Once the last line (say row 24
    for example) is reached then everything just gets written over on that last line and the screen never advances or clears.

    Been a couple years since I last used it, but I recall it working on other
    BBS software. I'll have to do more testing to know for sure.

    With VT100 emulation off QTerm is working just fine, just no screen clearing etc.

    Only other "issue" I have with this Kaypro 4 is that I can't use a baud
    faster than 1200 without dropping characters. Kind of sucks lol, I much
    prefer 2400 baud.

    Here is a picture of my Kaypro 4 as set up and connected to my BBS (still in configuring/customizing phase):

    https://bit.ly/2QR0JYM

    Cheers,
    Doug
    VE1LG
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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to All on Wed May 26 14:34:32 2021
    I have to laugh. My VT100 issues were a PEBKAC error. VT100 is of course a predecessor of ANSI and so QTerm with VT100 enabled works very well with an ANSI theme. Mystic's auto detection was detecting it as ASCII. So now I have it configured to simply let the user choose which emulation and theme they
    want ebfore they log in.

    Even works well with the full screen editor. Though at 1200 baud it is
    painful.

    Cheers,
    Doug
    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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  • From paulie420@21:2/150 to Otto Reverse on Wed Sep 1 09:52:22 2021
    Here is a picture of my Kaypro 4 as set up and connected to my BBS
    (still in configuring/customizing phase):

    https://bit.ly/2QR0JYM

    Beautiful machine, and I read your next post - glad you got it figured out by allowing user to select terminal settings. :P

    Really fun - and your K4 looks great.



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    |08.........
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  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to Otto Reverse on Fri Sep 3 08:27:41 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to All <=-

    Anyone use a CP/M machine for BBSing? What terminal program do you use?

    I have a Kaypro 4/83 and a Kaypro "1" (Kaypro 1 with a 2/84 ROM).

    I use a WiModem232 for both and FastTerm.

    FastTerm is pretty bare bones - basically just takes keys and sends them, then displays what comes back on the screen. No emulation.

    Only other "issue" I have with this Kaypro 4 is that I can't use a baud faster than 1200 without dropping characters. Kind of sucks lol, I
    much prefer 2400 baud.

    I found that if you have any emulation, the computer can't keep up. That's why I went with FastTerm. I easily get 2400 BPS without any character drops.

    I also use the Kaypro "baud" ("baudm" on my Kaypro "1") program to lock the serial port to the speed I want.

    For file transfers, I use Kermit and a null-modem-to-USB cable. But sending to the Kaypro is limited to 300 BPS. I find that's mostly due to the delay in saving the data to disk. Otherwise, I would be able to get a much higher speed.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Ron Lauzon on Wed Sep 8 06:55:00 2021
    Ron Lauzon wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    Only other "issue" I have with this Kaypro 4 is that I can't use a baud faster than 1200 without dropping characters. Kind of sucks lol, I
    much prefer 2400 baud.

    I found that if you have any emulation, the computer can't keep up.
    That's why I went with FastTerm. I easily get 2400 BPS without any character drops.

    I wonder what kind of UART they used on old CP/M boxes? With DOS boxes they originally had a 8250 UART chip that wouldn't support speeds over 9600 (if
    you were lucky). 16450 and 16550 UARTs added an on-chip buffer that allowed bits to "back up", so to speak, and higher rates were possible.


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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Sep 9 08:24:00 2021
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    I wonder what kind of UART they used on old CP/M boxes? With DOS boxes they originally had a 8250 UART chip that wouldn't support speeds over 9600 (if you were lucky). 16450 and 16550 UARTs added an on-chip buffer that allowed bits to "back up", so to speak, and higher rates were possible.

    Based on the Kaypro manuals that I've been able to locate, they didn't have a modern-type UART.

    The schmatic lists WD1943/SMC8116 and 3884/0 SIO chips.

    I know in my RC2014, they use a Z80 SIO/2 chip with a 74HCT04 and 74LS138 for providing 2 serial ports. But that system supports speeds up to 115,200 BPS.

    Like I said, it looks like my Kaypro can handle much higher speeds. But it's I/O for the other things that causes the problems. It's like there's no buffer on the serial port at all. Get the character when it's there because it will be overwritten soon.


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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Ron Lauzon on Tue Sep 14 11:39:35 2021
    FastTerm is pretty bare bones - basically just takes keys and sends
    them, then displays what comes back on the screen. No emulation.

    First, sorry for the late reply.

    My favourite activity on any retro computer that isn't game-focused is
    BBSing. So I "need" VT100 emulation for that to satisfy my expectations for what a BBS session should be like.

    I'll have to look around for FastTerm though just to give it a try. I really need to buy another HxC floppy drive emulator though. I'm supposed to be shrinking my retro computer collection but it started growing again. I'm currently working on resurrecting a COMPAQ 286 and I've got the floppy drive emulator there for the time being. 1st world problems!
    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to Otto Reverse on Tue Sep 14 09:03:00 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    My favourite activity on any retro computer that isn't game-focused is BBSing. So I "need" VT100 emulation for that to satisfy my
    expectations for what a BBS session should be like.

    For that, you'd probably be better off with something more powerful than the Z80era of computers. Anything 8088 and up should work fine.

    Also, that era of computer will have a modern, dedicated UART which will allow higher serial port speeds. Even better if you can track down a Hayes ESP (Ehnanced Serial Port) card.

    I'll have to look around for FastTerm though just to give it a try. I really need to buy another HxC floppy drive emulator though. I'm
    supposed to be shrinking my retro computer collection but it started growing again.

    I feel your pain. 8)

    I'm limited by desk space. If I don't use my machines every so often, I feel like I'm wasting them. But I have to keep some of them in the shelves because I have no desk space for them. So that feeling of guilt keeps me from acquiring more.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Otto Reverse on Tue Sep 14 07:13:00 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    My favourite activity on any retro computer that isn't game-focused is BBSing. So I "need" VT100 emulation for that to satisfy my
    expectations for what a BBS session should be like.

    I remember that old Fido BBSes could run without screen controls, just printing to the screen like it was a "glass TTY", as they called it back
    then.

    You'd need to use a line editor to post messages - that I don't want to go back to!


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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Sep 15 08:29:00 2021
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    You'd need to use a line editor to post messages - that I don't want to
    go back to!

    I can't think of any BBS that I used to call back in the day with a screen editor. But that's why offline mail readers became so popular.


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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Dr. What on Wed Sep 15 16:53:08 2021
    For that, you'd probably be better off with something more powerful than the Z80era of computers. Anything 8088 and up should work fine.

    Also, that era of computer will have a modern, dedicated UART which will allow higher serial port speeds. Even better if you can track down a Hayes ESP (Ehnanced Serial Port) card.

    No doubt. And while I never used to consider x86 DOS PC's as retro, enough
    time has passed that I've started feeling nostalgic for them. So I've got a few lol. Working on a COMPAQ 286 now, waiting on a RTC chip replacement. Of course what I really want is an IBM XT but they're out of my price range
    right now.

    Considering the subject, I should give CP/M-86 a try.
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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Sep 15 16:55:21 2021
    I remember that old Fido BBSes could run without screen controls, just printing to the screen like it was a "glass TTY", as they called it back then.

    Yup, me too. Not just Fido BBSes but there were a wide variety that would
    let you choose between straight ASCII or ANSI/VT100. I've got a pre-login
    menu on my own BBS for that but I haven't put enough time into the ASCII version as I should so its got plenty of glitches at the moment.
    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to Otto Reverse on Thu Sep 16 08:39:00 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Dr. What <=-

    No doubt. And while I never used to consider x86 DOS PC's as retro,
    enough time has passed that I've started feeling nostalgic for them.
    So I've got a few lol. Working on a COMPAQ 286 now, waiting on a RTC
    chip replacement. Of course what I really want is an IBM XT but they're out of my price range right now.

    Ya, I had an idea of picking up just a XT case, then putting a RaspberryPi in itand running a DOS emulator to get that retro feel. But even just the case is pricy today.

    Considering the subject, I should give CP/M-86 a try.

    That's just MS-DOS 1.0. 8)

    Seriously, I've had in the back of my head to do something like that. I also wanted to try DR-DOS to see how that feels.

    It's easier today to try those things out since most of us have replaced the hard drives with CF cards. Not to mention we don't have to pay for CP/M-86 or DR-DOS today.


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  • From Fratm@21:1/235 to Dr. What on Fri Sep 17 09:30:11 2021
    That's just MS-DOS 1.0. 8)

    But didn't CP/M support multiuser, kind of like UNIX did? It's been about 30 years since I touched a CP/M machine, so I might be confused lol

    -F
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  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Fratm on Fri Sep 17 20:14:00 2021
    Am 17.09.21 schrieb Fratm@21:1/235 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Fratm,

    That's just MS-DOS 1.0. 8)

    But didn't CP/M support multiuser, kind of like UNIX did? It's
    been about 30 years since I touched a CP/M machine, so I might be
    confused lol

    There was MP/M, the multi-user CP/M OS. It supported different users
    on terminals on a Z80.
    AFAIR on x86, it was also available.
    And there was Concurrent CP/M on x86, I guess it also supported
    virtual terminals and multitasking.

    But the bare CP/M did not support multitasking, neither on Z80 nor on
    x86.

    Regards,
    Anna
    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Dr. What on Sat Sep 18 17:33:55 2021
    Considering the subject, I should give CP/M-86 a try.

    That's just MS-DOS 1.0. 8)

    Ha! Sometimes running very old OS versions is like being a sucker for punishment. :p

    Seriously, I've had in the back of my head to do something like that. I also wanted to try DR-DOS to see how that feels.

    It would be fun to have a collection of x86 DOSes in the box with
    disk/manuals.

    Didn't DR-DOS become Caldera DOS and then FreeDOS? Not sure.
    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to Fratm on Sat Sep 18 20:15:00 2021
    Fratm wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That's just MS-DOS 1.0. 8)

    But didn't CP/M support multiuser, kind of like UNIX did? It's been
    about 30 years since I touched a CP/M machine, so I might be confused
    lol

    Sort of. Not multi-user like Linux (where multiple people can use the same box at the same time), but it had a "user" attribute that you could put on files as a way to group them or hide them.

    CP/M didn't support subdirectories. Which wasn't a surprise in a day when the only storage media you had was single or double sided 5.25" floppies. So we are talking 180K or 360K. You basically had a floppy with the software you wanted to run in the A: drive, then your data disk in the B: drive.

    I need to research the reason that the "user" attribute was created in the first place. I don't know off hand. But when hard drives started coming down in price, not supporting subdirectories was a big problem. Imaging doing a "dir" command and having to scroll through 100+ files - most unrelated to what you were doing.

    So CP/M used the "user" attribute as sort of a way to handle subdirectories.

    user 0 would be all the system utils, for example, and seen by all. Then you switched to user 1 when you wanted to program. Maybe switched to user 2 for writing that research paper. Switching to a different user would hide the files for the other users. Now your "dir" command only showed the files related to the user you had set.

    Right now, my CP/M machines are Kaypros and my RC2014s - all running CP/M 2.2 on a Z80. So they may have addressed this in newer versions of CP/M. I have it on my list to play with CP/M-86 to see what that does. I think I can run that one my MS-DOS machines.


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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to Otto Reverse on Sat Sep 18 20:38:00 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Ha! Sometimes running very old OS versions is like being a sucker for punishment. :p

    In my case, I got into vintage computing because of a real problem I had at work.

    I grew up with personal computers (the first on I used was TRS-80 Model I Level II and it was NEW at the time) so I always have in the back of my mind as I develop software that resources are limited and I need to keep an eye on how I use them.

    The problem at work was related to a new developer (who first started using computers that had far more resources than he could use). The tl;dr is that he pumped 1GB files through the system I was supporting that was designed to handle files only 10,000MB max. The idea that sending in a file 1000 larger than he originally told us he was going to send was going to be a problem didn't even enter his mind.

    Working with these very limited resource machines and seeing how much you can really do with these old computers is really interesting. And reminds us that computers don't have infinite resources.

    It would be fun to have a collection of x86 DOSes in the box with disk/manuals.

    Everything's on line today. No disks and manuals, but disk images and PDF files of the original manuals.

    I think I only have 1 computer that actually uses floppy disks today. This is mostly because I actually want to use these machines and floppies are getting harder and harder to locate (especially the 5.25" floppies).

    The last batch of 5.25" floppies I could locate had a failure rate of 2 out of 3 disks.

    Didn't DR-DOS become Caldera DOS and then FreeDOS? Not sure.

    I think you are right about Caldera, but I thought FreeDOS was a complete rewrite.

    I did give FreeDOS a try on my Compaq Portable 386 and I wasn't impressed with how it worked over the original DOS 3 that came with the machine.


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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to acn on Sat Sep 18 21:33:00 2021
    acn wrote to Fratm <=-

    There was MP/M, the multi-user CP/M OS. It supported different users
    on terminals on a Z80.

    Ooo.. I forgot about that. Do you happen to know how widespread MP/M got? I've never actually seen a computer that ran it.

    And there was Concurrent CP/M on x86, I guess it also supported
    virtual terminals and multitasking.

    I've started looking into CP/M-86, but I didn't know that Concurrent made their own version. Intersting. Something more for me to research.

    But the bare CP/M did not support multitasking, neither on Z80 nor on
    x86.

    I know that there was a program called Double Duty for the TRS-80 line. It let you load 2 programs into memory and swap between them. But I think that was the most the Z80 could do along the idea of "multitasking".


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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Dr. What on Sun Sep 19 22:22:56 2021
    Everything's on line today. No disks and manuals, but disk images and
    PDF files of the original manuals.

    Sure, but a big part of my collecting had always been software (in boxes if possible), manuals, etc. I always like the big manuals in three ring binders
    as you could easily refer to them while using the software or programming language. I have tons of such items for my TRS-80 Model 4, but not much for other systems like early PC's as I have essentially stopped collecting
    (failing at that a bit lol).

    floppies are getting harder and harder to locate (especially the 5.25" floppies).

    That's because people like me are hoarding them. I have hundreds. Half are new. I do like using things like HxC floppy emulators for convenience, and
    CF drives for their quietness, but all in all I prefer to use original
    hardware where possible for (sadistic) realism.
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  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to Otto Reverse on Sun Sep 19 20:18:00 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Sure, but a big part of my collecting had always been software (in
    boxes if possible), manuals, etc. I always like the big manuals in
    three ring binders as you could easily refer to them while using the software or programming language. I have tons of such items for my
    TRS-80 Model 4, but not much for other systems like early PC's as I
    have essentially stopped collecting (failing at that a bit lol).

    Ya, I have limited space, so I need to pick and choose what's worthwhile to make the space for. I do have good number of computer books and manuals, but I don't have a set for all my systems. If I did that, I'd have to choose between the computer or the books and I'd rather have the computer.

    I try really hard to NOT get new stuff, but sometimes something comes up on eBay that I really want (or no one wants, but I think it cool and I get it cheap).

    That's because people like me are hoarding them.

    I have a bunch too. But like I said, when I go to format them, they have a 2 out of 3 failure rate. They are just getting too old.


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  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Dr. What on Mon Sep 20 15:39:00 2021
    Am 18.09.21 schrieb Dr. What@21:1/194 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Dr.,

    There was MP/M, the multi-user CP/M OS. It supported different users
    on terminals on a Z80.

    Ooo.. I forgot about that. Do you happen to know how widespread MP/M
    got? I've never actually seen a computer that ran it.

    Sorry, I don't have numbers or more information on that.
    Have a look at the Z80 scene, eg. in the Google Group "retro-comp" :)
    There, some people are running MP/M on some machines.

    And there was Concurrent CP/M on x86, I guess it also supported
    virtual terminals and multitasking.

    I've started looking into CP/M-86, but I didn't know that Concurrent made their own version. Intersting. Something more for me to research.

    "Concurrent CP/M" is still from Digital Research, as I've read on
    Wikipedia (.de), Concurrent CP/M-86 is a later version of MP/M-86 +
    CP/M-86.

    But the bare CP/M did not support multitasking, neither on Z80 nor on
    x86.

    I know that there was a program called Double Duty for the TRS-80 line.
    It let you load 2 programs into memory and swap between them. But I think that was the most the Z80 could do along the idea of "multitasking".

    Don't underestimate the Z80 :)
    There are some UNIX derivatives like FUZIX, which allows multitasking.
    And there is even a multitasking OS with a GUI called SymbOS, which
    runs on some Z80 machines. Pretty amazing :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
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  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Otto Reverse on Mon Sep 20 15:48:00 2021
    Am 18.09.21 schrieb Otto Reverse@21:1/225 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Otto,

    Didn't DR-DOS become Caldera DOS and then FreeDOS? Not sure.

    The history of DR DOS is more or less like this:
    - First, it came from Digital Research (DRI), up to version 6.0
    - Then, Novell bought DRI and continued selling DR DOS 6
    - The next version was Novell DOS 7
    - Then, Novell sold everything DRI to Caldera
    - Caldera brought Caldera OpenDOS 7.01, which was free for home users
    - Then, Caldera offered Caldera DR-DOS 7.02 and 7.03
    - Afterwards, DR DOS came to "Caldera Thin Clients", which became
    "Lineo", then to Canopy Group, then to DeviceLogics - which became
    DRDOS, Inc.
    - DR-DOS 8 came out in 2004, 8.1 in 2005; both disappeared because of copyright problems (stolen programs from FreeDOS)

    Just fyi :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Dr. What on Mon Sep 20 16:21:43 2021
    I have a bunch too. But like I said, when I go to format them, they
    have a 2 out of 3 failure rate. They are just getting too old.

    I have that problem sometimes but I want to get a bulk eraser as I suspect
    the problem I encounter is often pre-formatted disks (not just from factory
    but from previous use by me in who knows what) not playing nice with whatever program in whatever old computer I'm trying to use it in.

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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to acn on Mon Sep 20 16:22:44 2021
    The history of DR DOS is more or less like this:

    Thanks Anna, I wasn't aware of Novell's part in its history nor the issues
    with copyright/FreeDOS.

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  • From phigan@21:1/101 to Otto Reverse on Wed Sep 22 01:40:21 2021
    It would be fun to have a collection of x86 DOSes in the box with disk/manuals.

    Back in the day there was a version of OS/2 Warp that was hacked to remove
    the GUI and you were left with a 3-disk installer of just the CLI. It was
    like having DOS 5 (or maybe 6?) without the 640k RAM barrier. It ran
    absolutely great, but it didn't have emm386.sys so anything that specifically checked for that didn't run. I'd really like to find a copy of that again.

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  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to phigan on Wed Sep 22 12:39:14 2021
    Back in the day there was a version of OS/2 Warp that was hacked to
    remove the GUI and you were left with a 3-disk installer of just the
    CLI. It was like having DOS 5 (or maybe 6?) without the 640k RAM
    barrier. It ran absolutely great, but it didn't have emm386.sys so anything that specifically checked for that didn't run. I'd really like
    to find a copy of that again.

    Interesting. Never heard of that one. I've used version 3 and 4. Great OS. Would have been a solid system to use back when it was current. I never did due to cost, and things in the OS world were moving so fast by the time I
    could afford it Win95 was ubiquitous.

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  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to acn on Tue Sep 21 08:39:46 2021
    acn wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Sorry, I don't have numbers or more information on that.
    Have a look at the Z80 scene, eg. in the Google Group "retro-comp" :) There, some people are running MP/M on some machines.

    Thanks. I've been racking my brain as to what commercial machines would have run MP/M. I'm aware of the Kaypro-era (and many of the competitors during that time) all running CP/M.

    My thinking right now is that the ascendancy of MS-DOS really overshadowed any enhancements of CP/M. Like any technology, you have companies who made the investment in that technology and don't want to spend the money to change that, so they create a demand for updates to the "old" technology. For a while, at least.

    "Concurrent CP/M" is still from Digital Research, as I've read on Wikipedia (.de), Concurrent CP/M-86 is a later version of MP/M-86 + CP/M-86.

    Ahh.. That's right. More CP/M history I'm forgot about.

    Don't underestimate the Z80 :)

    I don't. It's pushing 40 years old and still being manufacturered. They must have done something right.


    ... Insert disk 5 of 4 and press any key to continue
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/08/07 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: commconnbbs.net (21:1/192)
  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to acn on Tue Sep 21 08:39:46 2021
    acn wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    The history of DR DOS is more or less like this:
    - First, it came from Digital Research (DRI), up to version 6.0
    - Then, Novell bought DRI and continued selling DR DOS 6
    - The next version was Novell DOS 7
    - Then, Novell sold everything DRI to Caldera

    Novell had a tendancy of buying up products only to sell them off (or kill them off) later.

    Didn't Novell buy up the Borland stuff and try to make an Office package out of them? DOS-era, so a little off topic.

    - Caldera brought Caldera OpenDOS 7.01, which was free for home users
    - Then, Caldera offered Caldera DR-DOS 7.02 and 7.03
    - Afterwards, DR DOS came to "Caldera Thin Clients", which became
    "Lineo", then to Canopy Group, then to DeviceLogics - which became
    DRDOS, Inc.
    - DR-DOS 8 came out in 2004, 8.1 in 2005; both disappeared because of copyright problems (stolen programs from FreeDOS)

    I don't know why, but my memories of Caldera were always of a slimy company.
    No evidence. It was just a feeling I always had.


    ... Live long and prosper... But don't let the IRS know.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/08/07 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: commconnbbs.net (21:1/192)
  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to Otto Reverse on Tue Sep 21 08:39:46 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I have that problem sometimes but I want to get a bulk eraser as I
    suspect the problem I encounter is often pre-formatted disks (not just from factory but from previous use by me in who knows what) not playing nice with whatever program in whatever old computer I'm trying to use
    it in.

    The bulk eraser might fix the problem - for a time. But the fact is that, over time, the disks will simply no longer hold the data. Some of the poorer quality ones will actually flake and make your drive heads dirty (good luck buying a new 5.25" drive head cleaner today).

    Like I said, I fully understand wanting to use the old disks in these old systems. I had my Kaypro "1" (actually a 2/84 in a 1 case) like that for a while. The 1/2 height drives were much more reliable than the full height ones that were in my Kaypro 4/83. But whenever I wanted to use it, I had to make room for the disk case. And I had some disk failures.

    My TRS-80 4P still has its floppy drives and I still have a 1541 for my Commodore 64. But I never use them. Software mostly comes from the Internet as a disk image file, making the floppy emulators that I have for both even more convienent.


    ... I love animals! But they all seem to taste like chicken.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/08/07 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: commconnbbs.net (21:1/192)
  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to Otto Reverse on Tue Sep 21 08:39:46 2021
    Otto Reverse wrote to acn <=-

    Thanks Anna, I wasn't aware of Novell's part in its history nor the
    issues with copyright/FreeDOS.

    Novell always seemed like a place where good software goes to die.

    Novell never really came up with a good direction for itself when the network side went away. They seemed to go in 100 different directions, trying many things and never really coming up with a really good solution for anything.

    For me, once Novell acquired something, I typically forgot about it.


    ... If all goes well, you've overlooked something!
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/08/07 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: commconnbbs.net (21:1/192)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Otto Reverse on Thu Sep 23 17:21:00 2021
    I have that problem sometimes but I want to get a bulk eraser as I suspect

    Just grab a decent magnet, and give it a swirl... degaussing wand works
    nicely too :)

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Ron Lauzon on Thu Sep 23 17:28:00 2021
    The bulk eraser might fix the problem - for a time. But the fact is that, over time, the disks will simply no longer hold the data. Some of the

    A far bigger problem I come across, is mouldy floppies. Who'd have thought they'd support mould growth... looks a bit like slightly green grey rings on the disc surface. Clags drive heads really badly really quickly. A fairly common problem on SS and DSDD discs.

    Any kind of magnetic field ought to be able to pull the media into
    "alignment" magnetically... but that's not going to allow for bit rot, some
    of the surface losing is magnetic "permeability"... haven't thought about it
    to hard for a long time now... I do recall floppies that wouldn't format, and or had boot sector virii being cured by strong magnetic fields though.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to acn on Tue Sep 21 07:13:00 2021
    acn wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Don't underestimate the Z80 :)
    There are some UNIX derivatives like FUZIX, which allows multitasking.
    And there is even a multitasking OS with a GUI called SymbOS, which
    runs on some Z80 machines. Pretty amazing :)

    Your post reminded me of this from the archives...


    _ Area: NN - The Technological Horizon
    _______________________________________
    Msg#: 98 Rec'd Sent Date: 21 Mar 94 07:13:00
    From: Artyom Read: Yes Replied: No
    To: Poindexter Fortran Mark:
    Subj: Re: UPGRADE TIME!!! ______________________________________________________________________________
    On 03-18-94, GUANOMONGER wrote to THE INVISIBLE MAN:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm running a Unix-based file server on my 2k
    Casio digital watch.

    Now there's a micro-kernal for you!

    There was a great tfile on usenet about a AT&T SYSV port to timex-
    sinclair. The only problem was paging to the cassette recorder when the PF>sysadin was using it for audio tape playback.

    Is this the one? (by the way, it was you who posted it on BTF :)
    ZX80/81 owners unite. Research is currently underway into a version
    of UNIX for the stock standard ZX81, call ZUNIX. Using a new mega
    super ultra data compression method (involves a hyrdraulic press) the
    follow features have been implemented in ZUNIX -

    * Runs in the standard 1.5K. No need to go for that wasteful
    extra 4K or 16K RAM upgrade.
    * Will be licensed in 100 and 200 user versions
    * Efficient paging and swapping to cassette tape at 300 baud.
    Later versions will support multiple cassette recorders for really
    high performance IO.
    * Includes all Unix tools, networking and X. Full source included.
    * Able to fully use all expanded and extended memory (i.e above
    the 1.5K limit)
    * Includes software to emulate a PC running MSDOS (similar to VPIX
    and DOS MERGE).
    * Support for Hyperchannel Interface (enables CRAY to be used as
    a frontend)
    * Support for real time processes.

    We've been beta testing ZUNIX for the past year, using 150 developers,
    all going through the edit-compile-link cycle all day. The only performance degradation we've noticed is when Jeff (the ZX81 is on his desk) has
    to swap cassette tapes. Even this will be fixed when we write the
    drivers for multiple cassette recorders. Can't wait!!

    ZUNIX is expected to sell in the $1.50 -> $2.00 range, on a single cassette tape, from <J>oint <O>perational <K>ode <E>ngineering. Even after ZUNIX
    has been fully implemented we anticipate there will be (as you can
    imagine) a large amount of the 1.5K main memory free. To this end we
    invite you to post your suggestions for further features that could
    be implemented in the remaining space (eg traffic control system for
    large city).

    Tite Kode
    Director
    Joint Operational Kode Engineering
    [----------8<---------]



    ... Listen in total darkness, very quietly
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to acn on Tue Sep 21 07:15:00 2021
    acn wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    Didn't DR-DOS become Caldera DOS and then FreeDOS? Not sure.

    The history of DR DOS is more or less like this:
    - First, it came from Digital Research (DRI), up to version 6.0
    - Then, Novell bought DRI and continued selling DR DOS 6

    And, as soon as the ink was dry, Novell sued Microsoft, again.

    The 90s were a weird parallelogram of hate - between Steve Jobs, Scott McNealy, Bill Gates and Ray Noorda, sometimes acting more out of spite than anything else.




    ... Listen in total darkness, very quietly
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to phigan on Wed Sep 22 07:29:00 2021
    phigan wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    Back in the day there was a version of OS/2 Warp that was hacked to
    remove the GUI and you were left with a 3-disk installer of just the
    CLI. It was like having DOS 5 (or maybe 6?) without the 640k RAM
    barrier. It ran absolutely great, but it didn't have emm386.sys so anything that specifically checked for that didn't run. I'd really like
    to find a copy of that again.

    Are you sure that wasn't OS/2 1.2? :)



    ... Look at a very small object, look at its centre
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Ron Lauzon on Thu Sep 23 07:30:00 2021
    Ron Lauzon wrote to acn <=-

    My thinking right now is that the ascendancy of MS-DOS really
    overshadowed any enhancements of CP/M. Like any technology, you have companies who made the investment in that technology and don't want to spend the money to change that, so they create a demand for updates to
    the "old" technology. For a while, at least.

    I recall that both Apple and the original IBM PC had the ability with add-on hardware to run CP/M machines, as there were quite a few machines in
    business running CP/M, and having the "next" platform be able to run the old programs was a good move.

    IBM won that battle, you don't see any Apple IIIs around anymore. :)

    "Concurrent CP/M" is still from Digital Research, as I've read on Wikipedia (.de), Concurrent CP/M-86 is a later version of MP/M-86 + CP/M-86.

    I remember some of the odd-ball mini-multi-user systems out there. There was
    a PICK system that ran on a 386 and supported a handful of terminals,
    although I don't know how fast it would be.

    PICK was a multi-user virtualized OS that was a database with an OS and a procedural BASIC and primitive SQL query language wrapped around it. Great little system that ran on anything from a single-user app to the aforementioned 386es to midrange computers in the '90s.



    ... Centrifugal force reacts to the rotating frame of reference.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Ron Lauzon on Thu Sep 23 07:36:00 2021
    Ron Lauzon wrote to acn <=-

    Didn't Novell buy up the Borland stuff and try to make an Office
    package out of them? DOS-era, so a little off topic.

    Everybody licensed Quattro, back in the day when Spreadsheets were the business person's entry into desktop computing.

    I don't know why, but my memories of Caldera were always of a slimy company. No evidence. It was just a feeling I always had.

    They were the ones who tried to sue IBM and shake down companies for
    licensing fees for code they claimed to have the license to, due to them mis-interpreting a licensing agreement with AT&T for UNIX code.

    Caldera ended up stating in their financial disclosures that they stopped writing and selling code to focus on trying to make money on licensing.

    They ended up fueling a blog called Groklaw chronicling their mis-steps (mis-step 1: IBM has many more lawyers than you do) over many years until
    the company finally went under.

    I loved SCO, Caldera's ancestor. A SCO XENIX training class was my first deep-dive into *nix and opened my eyes to the California central coast,
    where I make my home now.



    ... Breakdown on Paradise Blvd.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Ron Lauzon on Thu Sep 23 08:09:00 2021
    Ron Lauzon wrote to Otto Reverse <=-

    Novell never really came up with a good direction for itself when the network side went away. They seemed to go in 100 different directions, trying many things and never really coming up with a really good
    solution for anything.

    I was a Novell admin at the time of 3.12 -> Novell 4, and Novell introducing their directory services. They seemed taken aback by the turn of events that
    a mostly OK but significantly cheaper directory service would outsell their "superior" DS.

    Man, for a time, they rocked. Yearlong uptimes, solid support for Mac namespaces, and great support.


    ... At the end of the day, it gets dark.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Otto Reverse@21:1/225 to Spectre on Thu Sep 23 17:30:52 2021
    Just grab a decent magnet, and give it a swirl... degaussing wand works nicely too :)

    Good idea!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Free Speech You Smeg Head (21:1/225)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 09:51:00 2021
    IBM won that battle, you don't see any Apple IIIs around anymore. :)

    Ahh yeah, but the III was pretty much an evolutionary dead end, with a raft
    of design faults. It didn't really offer anthing over a pimped out II+ but
    the next evolution would've been the IIe... when the extended 80 col card arrives its got a little more going for it. But your point is still valid IBM or more accurately the PC based system became ubiquitous.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 08:18:00 2021
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    I recall that both Apple and the original IBM PC had the ability with add-on hardware to run CP/M machines, as there were quite a few
    machines in business running CP/M, and having the "next" platform be
    able to run the old programs was a good move.

    Yup. Apple had a Z80 card. The Commodore 128 had an expansion cartridge with a Z80 and the ability to run CP/M.

    The company that Microsoft purchased what would become MS-DOS 1.0 from had a business of doing those kinds of add ons.

    The original IBM-PC, though, was a little different. Unlike the 6502-based computers, it wasn't going to use a Z80 add on card. They were porting CP/M to the 8086/8066 family. It wouldn't run the Z80 software, but it would be really easy for software companies to port their software over.

    IBM won that battle, you don't see any Apple IIIs around anymore. :)

    The Apple III was a strange bird anyway. I think is disappeared for other reasons.

    But actually Microsoft won the battle.


    ... Any given program, once running, is obsolete.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)
  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 08:47:00 2021
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to acn <=-

    The 90s were a weird parallelogram of hate - between Steve Jobs, Scott McNealy, Bill Gates and Ray Noorda, sometimes acting more out of spite than anything else.

    And they were all mad at the others for doing better with the technology/ideas that they stole from other companies.


    ... Today is cancelled due to lack of interest!
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 16:30:00 2021
    Am 21.09.21 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo poindexter,

    Don't underestimate the Z80 :)
    There are some UNIX derivatives like FUZIX, which allows multitasking. ac>> And there is even a multitasking OS with a GUI called SymbOS, which
    runs on some Z80 machines. Pretty amazing :)

    Your post reminded me of this from the archives...

    _ Area: NN - The Technological Horizon _______________________________________
    Msg#: 98 Rec'd Sent Date: 21 Mar 94 07:13:00 From: Artyom Read: Yes Replied: No To: Poindexter Fortran Mark:
    Subj: Re: UPGRADE TIME!!! __________________________________________________________________________ ____
    [...]

    :-D :-D
    Yes, that's a great post! :)
    I just thought that is was written about 11 days too early ;-)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 16:35:00 2021
    Am 22.09.21 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo poindexter,

    Back in the day there was a version of OS/2 Warp that was hacked to
    remove the GUI and you were left with a 3-disk installer of just the
    CLI. It was like having DOS 5 (or maybe 6?) without the 640k RAM
    barrier. It ran absolutely great, but it didn't have emm386.sys so
    anything that specifically checked for that didn't run. I'd really like ph>> to find a copy of that again.

    Are you sure that wasn't OS/2 1.2? :)

    ;-)

    Just to add something here:
    There was(is) a program called BOOTOS2, written by an IBM employee,
    which could create bootable floppies for OS/2.

    And using this tool, it worked with only 2 floppies (instead of 3).
    I've used it back in the day to create boot floppies which also
    contained the driver for my parallel port Zip drive, where I stored my
    OS/2 backup on.
    (Creating a working backup was easy back then: I did it with RAR,
    which understood and (re)stored the extended attributes and long
    filenames on HPFS)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Ron Lauzon on Fri Sep 24 16:36:00 2021
    Am 21.09.21 schrieb Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Ron,

    Don't underestimate the Z80 :)

    I don't. It's pushing 40 years old and still being manufacturered. They must have done something right.

    Yes :)
    And I really like my RC2014 (Z80) and SC126 (Z180) machines where I
    run CP/M 3 on (using the RomWBW firmware).

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Sep 24 16:40:00 2021
    Am 23.09.21 schrieb poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo poindexter,

    I recall that both Apple and the original IBM PC had the ability with add-on hardware to run CP/M machines, as there were quite a few machines
    in business running CP/M, and having the "next" platform be able to run
    the old programs was a good move.

    For the Apple ][, the "SoftCard" even was a product from Micro-Soft :)
    But there also were others who created Z80 cards for the Apple ][.

    I don't remember any "CP/M" or Z80 cards for the IBM PC, do you know
    any?

    MS-DOS 1 was created so that it was easy to port software from CP/M to
    DOS, so maybe that wasn't a big thing...?

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Dr. What on Fri Sep 24 16:42:00 2021
    Am 24.09.21 schrieb Dr. What@21:1/194 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Dr.,

    Yup. Apple had a Z80 card. The Commodore 128 had an expansion cartridge with a Z80 and the ability to run CP/M.

    Just a little correction: The expansion cartridge was for the C64, and
    it only allowed running CP/M with 40 columns...

    The C128 had a Z80 on-board, so running CP/M here was possible out-of-
    the-box by booting the CP/M disk (in 40 or 80 columns mode).

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to Ron Lauzon on Fri Sep 24 16:46:00 2021
    Am 21.09.21 schrieb Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 in FSX_RETRO:

    Hallo Ron,

    Novell had a tendancy of buying up products only to sell them off (or kill them off) later.

    Sad, but probably true...

    Didn't Novell buy up the Borland stuff and try to make an Office package out of them? DOS-era, so a little off topic.

    There was "Novell PerfectOffice" which contained eg. WordPerfect.

    AFAIK, there was a server product for WordPerfect, which was the base
    for Novell's later groupware, GroupWise.

    I don't know why, but my memories of Caldera were always of a slimy company. No evidence. It was just a feeling I always had.

    That might be true. I fail to remember which company was/is the one
    which became the infamous SCO (which sued IBM for Linux), but I think
    it was one of the Caldera companies.

    Besides, the best thing Caldera did was releasing most Digital
    Research code to the public, ie. CP/M, (parts of?) DR-DOS and GEM.

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.50
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Dr. What on Fri Sep 24 07:31:00 2021
    Dr. What wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    The Apple III was a strange bird anyway. I think is disappeared for
    other reasons.

    It seemed focused on business, which I didn't think they had a real foothold in at the time. I remember seeing one at BusinessLand, along with a Lisa - another odd system. When you market your machine to Fortune 500 CEOs, seems like selling more than 500 might be a challenge. ;)

    A couple of years later, I worked at a company where we had all Mac Pluses
    and Mac SEs. A Lisa running the email system was sitting under my desk and made a nice footrest.


    ... You can only make one dot at a time
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to acn on Sat Sep 25 12:28:00 2021
    For the Apple ][, the "SoftCard" even was a product from Micro-Soft :)
    But there also were others who created Z80 cards for the Apple ][.

    There were two schools of Z80 for Apple II. Cards like the SoftCard make up about 99% of them, and are essentially processor only cards, relying fully on the resources of the system. This limited the card speed to 1Mhz because
    thats what all the system resources are running at.

    The alternative was more a system on a card, PCPI Applicard, I think there
    were two other brands on the same card. Which run at some ~6Mhz Z80 and
    support their own 64-128k RAM on board, with possible RAM expansion.

    Personally I prefer the latter, as the on board RAM can also be accessed from the 6502 side of life.

    Apprently at the time CP/M on the A2 was popular with your secretary types
    with WordStar.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
    --- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
    * Origin: A camel is a horse designed by a committee. (21:3/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to acn on Sat Sep 25 09:57:00 2021
    acn wrote to Ron Lauzon <=-

    That might be true. I fail to remember which company was/is the one
    which became the infamous SCO (which sued IBM for Linux), but I think
    it was one of the Caldera companies.

    SCO started out as The Santa Cruz Operation, and they were a *real* company that licenced XENIX and UNIX SYSV for their own distributions. It wasn't
    until later that SCO sold their rights and licensing to Caldera, who ended
    up changing their name to the SCO group - and trying to sue Linux users and contributors based on their interpretation of their AT&T license.


    ... XT or AT, it makes a big difference.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From Dr. What@21:1/194 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Sep 26 12:42:00 2021
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-

    It seemed focused on business, which I didn't think they had a real foothold in at the time. I remember seeing one at BusinessLand, along
    with a Lisa - another odd system. When you market your machine to
    Fortune 500 CEOs, seems like selling more than 500 might be a
    challenge. ;)

    When it comes to the Fortune 500, the rule is "no one ever got fired for going with IBM". That rule made any other company have a much harder time selling to those large companies.

    A couple of years later, I worked at a company where we had all Mac
    Pluses and Mac SEs. A Lisa running the email system was sitting under
    my desk and made a nice footrest.

    There was an old computer "story" that went like this:
    The Wizard of the Ivory Tower brought a box into the Master's office.
    "Here is a the new computer system that I invented," he said. "Management
    has decreed that it shall be used as a platform for all new programs." "Wonderful!" the Master said. "I shall take it to the data center myself."
    Two weeks later...
    "Where's the print out of my new program," asked the Wizard to the Master.
    The master responded, "It's on the platform in the data center."


    ... Curiosity didn't kill the cat. I got 'im with the mower!
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Diamond Mine Online BBS 21:1/194 bbs.dmine.net:24 (21:1/194)
  • From Ron Lauzon@21:1/192 to acn on Sun Sep 26 14:02:44 2021
    acn wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    MS-DOS 1 was created so that it was easy to port software from CP/M to DOS, so maybe that wasn't a big thing...?

    MS-DOS 1.0 was created from 86-DOS, which was intended to be just a developer tool to help Seattle Computer Products with their hardware products. 86-DOS was just a stop-gap while waiting for CP/M-86 to be released.


    ... Include this in your CONFIG.SYS File: BUGS=OFF
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A47 2021/08/07 (Windows/32)
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Dr. What on Mon Sep 27 07:25:00 2021
    Dr. What wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    When it comes to the Fortune 500, the rule is "no one ever got fired
    for going with IBM". That rule made any other company have a much
    harder time selling to those large companies.

    My first corporate job was at a company with an ex-IBM exec in charge of IT, and everything we had was IBM, from the token ring networks to the PS/2 PCs, to the S38 and AS/400 midrange computers, IBM laser printers... You could do it back then.

    A few years later, another job went all HP, including one of the weirdest systems I'd worked on - an HP/3000 midrange computer running an informix database, and Portable Netware running on top of that. Portable Netware emulated the Netware core protocols in userspace for desktop PCs, which mde
    it look like a Netware server. They had a document management system that
    used the underlying informix database. When the system crashed you'd need to fsck the main file system, roll back the database, and then do another file system check on the Netware layer. Down 24 hours or so, with attorneys breathing down your back and losing billable hours.

    They were HP desktops, printers, switches, and routers.






    A couple of years later, I worked at a company where we had all Mac
    Pluses and Mac SEs. A Lisa running the email system was sitting under
    my desk and made a nice footrest.

    There was an old computer "story" that went like this:
    The Wizard of the Ivory Tower brought a box into the Master's office. "Here is a the new computer system that I invented," he said.
    "Management has decreed that it shall be used as a platform for all new programs." "Wonderful!" the Master said. "I shall take it to the data center myself." Two weeks later...
    "Where's the print out of my new program," asked the Wizard to the
    Master. The master responded, "It's on the platform in the data
    center."


    ... Curiosity didn't kill the cat. I got 'im with the mower!
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