My old computer is not loved by microsoft. Its a Ryzen 7 1700 and
Windows 11 is not supported. I am thinking I might just run Linux on it when Microsoft decides not to support this old computer I use to play Final Fantasy 14 and run my bbs on.
seems like a shame.. pcs are already overkill for desktop windows programs.
My old computer is not loved by microsoft. Its a Ryzen 7 1700 and
Windows 11 is not supported. I am thinking I might just run Linux on it when Microsoft decides not to support this old computer I use to play
Re: Re: Old computer
By: fusion to Utopian Galt on Tue Jun 21 2022 06:16 pm
seems like a shame.. pcs are already overkill for desktop windows programs.
Not sure what you mean about PCs being overkill for desktop Windows programs.. What other device (that isn't overkill) are you going to run desktop Windows programs on?
seems like a shame.. pcs are already overkill for desktop windowsIt seems like planned obsolencence where software becomes even more dependent on newer hardware. I had kittens trying to load recent versions of web browsers on a core 2 box.
programs.
only reason i've upgraded pcs since the ol' core2quad was for gaming and video editing stuff.. nothing else really feels that much different from back then..
Yep, I'm in the same boat. I have a Ryzen 1700x, and it's plentyI think we have support until 2025.
powerful, so it's a shame we are stuck on Windows 10 like zombies.
My old computer is not loved by microsoft. Its a Ryzen 7 1700 and Windows 11 is not supported. I am thinking I might just run Linux on it when
My old computer is not loved by microsoft. Its a Ryzen 7 1700 and
Windows 11 is not supported. I am thinking I might just run Linux on it when Microsoft decides not to support this old computer I use to play Final Fantasy 14 and run my bbs on.
i guess i meant to imply that PCs have been overkill for most users for a while.. so blocking certain more-than-capable machines is a shame. web browsimg, document editing..
many of them can decode 4k video on the CPU if there isn't a hardware option, still play most modern games, etc. yet lesser specced laptops support Windows 11 and hardware acceleration is required to play video at all.
i duno, everyone has been talking about e-waste but this just flies under the radar..that Ryzen 7 1700 is still an awesome cpu right now. just feels wrong.
It seems like planned obsolencence where software becomes even more dependent on newer hardware. I had kittens trying to load recent versions of web browsers on a core 2 box.
I'm not sure if it's planned obsolescence all the time, but there's a cycle where software eventually does more, which requires a more powerful PC, which in turn allows software to do even more, and so on..
Utopian Galt wrote to All <=-
My old computer is not loved by microsoft. Its a Ryzen 7 1700 and
Windows 11 is not supported. I am thinking I might just run Linux on it when Microsoft decides not to support this old computer I use to play Final Fantasy 14 and run my bbs on.
fusion wrote to Utopian Galt <=-
seems like a shame.. pcs are already overkill for desktop windows programs. only reason i've upgraded pcs since the ol' core2quad was for gaming and video editing stuff.. nothing else really feels that much different from back then..
whichever way you look at it, whats being described is waste... INot supporting 1st gen ryzens was a mistake by microsoft. Im thinking this box might end up being an Linux and OS/2 box instead.
wouldn't
describe a ryzen 7 as old...if its obsoleted by software requirements
its
waste.
You've got until 2025 to make a choice. I was set on migrating myI have a Windows 11 laptop, but I will maximize this desktop for the time being.
desktop to
Linux, but WSL 2 seems to do everything I'd want it to do under Linux,
with
a little lack in the eye-candy department - but not a major concern.
Utopian Galt wrote to All <=-You've got until 2025 to make a choice. I was set on migrating my
desktop to Linux, but WSL 2 seems to do everything I'd want it to do under Linux, with a little lack in the eye-candy department - but not a major concern.
MS will make Win10 slower and have strange bugs and such all saying it doesn't do that in 11 until people switch. Linux is where its going to
claw wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
MS will make Win10 slower and have strange bugs and such all saying it doesn't do that in 11 until people switch. Linux is where its going to
be at. Until we see switching in mass MS isn't going to stop the
selling you a product that they then use to sell you to their actual customers.
fusion wrote to claw <=-
this is silly. Windows 7 still activates (i used the 800 #)
MS will make Win10 slower and have strange bugs and such all saying it doesn do that in 11 until people switch. Linux is where its going to be at. Unti we see switching in mass MS isn't going to stop the selling you a product th they then use to sell you to their actual customers.
I've gotten the feeling that corporate customers are Microsoft's customer, and we're along for the ride, for some time now.
I've sort of had that feeling too. Over the last 10 years or so, it
seems fewer and fewer people have a desktop or laptop computer, and
might use a tablet more often. So home users may not be using Windows
as much as before.
Mannnnn.... in my house, computers work for me and not the other way arou
I am not buying the argument that Windows is the stuff you set when you want things to just work. Windows is the platform in which if a hard drive dies
Linux has never been able to cut it on the desktop which is what this was about. Its not about how many tech-calls you get for Windows desktops.
That every year some people believe its the year of mass-migration away from MS and I just laugh wholeheartedly because it never happens, I
wonder what these people are smoking. On the server Linux is a different story and where it belongs. Google and Apple may of got it "right" but
not the other distros where one GUI operation beyond anything simple
puts you in Bash territory.
Not a bad plan. Personally, I only use Windows in a VirtualBox to
support some Radio programming software that only works on Windows. Even then, it typically Windows XP as momst of the radio programming software still works on it and I only use it for that and nothing else.
I've sort of had that feeling too. Over the last 10 years or so, it seems fewer and fewer people have a desktop or laptop computer, and might use a tablet more often. So home users may not be using Window as much as before.
You know that's an intresting observation. I know more and more people
are using Tablets either iPads or some Android device. Hell some people even get physical keyboards for them.
I do agree that mass migration right now from Windows is not happing now or very likely in the near future.. That said, I've very curious what sort of complex things put one into Bash territory?
However, in recent years I have been seeing more software for Linux, and it seems thereh as
cently become aware of Proton, which is supposed to help run some Windows games in Linux. I
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
Windows is what works "for me". Because I know what I'm doing... I did
not just get my node number yesterday. But to some Linux fanatics, I'm
an idiot for running anything MS. Or I'm apparently not understanding something so the fanatics feel compelled to rant & rave about Linux or their system or (not picking on you) someone tells me about all the problems with Windows, how often they get support calls, etc. I've
worked in IT for 25+ years, know what the problems are. I made a career from fixing them which is why I actually admire MS to a certain
extent... was able to have a tech career.
For transparancy, I do use Linux as my daily driver. However, I'm a firm believer that you can use whatever works for you. Linux
works for me, but it might not work for you. That said for many old computers, it is worth a try to find a Linux version to run
on them. That's how I ended up on Linux. I had an old computer I put it on, next to my newer machine that ran windows.I found
that after a while I just kept using the Linux machine.
I do agree that mass migration right now from Windows is not happing now or very likely in the near future.. That said, I've very curious what sort of complex things put one into Bash territory?
I suppose selling people a software package then later removing their ability to install it looks bad. :)
Lol, every year since Windows NT4 someone somewhere somehow reposts this same apocalyptic nonsense and of how "This will be the year of the Linux Desktop".
amusing about tossing mail from this net and others, where the vast majority of convo is "Linux testing and tinkering". Always something
wrong or always adjusting.
amusing about tossing mail from this net and others, where the vast majority of convo is "Linux testing and tinkering". Always something wrong or always adjusting.
Perhaps Linux based sysops are more inclined to fiddle with their setup? Th
again, when I ran a BBS back in the late 80's on DOS and later OS/2 I used fiddle with things all the time - so maybe the choice of OS has nothing to d with it? :-)
Oh yes they are... makes for a lot of topics here and elsewhere. :)
Linux Sysops with Ham radio or engineering backgrounds are the worst. Oh mannnnn can they ever defend their beloved OS as if their life depends
on it.
I get that fiddling comes with the territory... but for me, once my computers work the way I want them to, they are imaged and left alone.
I just don't have the time anymore... the endless nights messing around with some program or scripts or OS is long over with.
I get that fiddling comes with the territory... but for me, once my computers work the way I want them to, they are imaged and left alone.
I just don't have the time anymore... the endless nights messing around
with some program or scripts or OS is long over with.
Linux Sysops with Ham radio or engineering backgrounds are the worst. Oh mannnnn can they ever defend their beloved OS as if their life depends on it.
Linux has never been able to cut it on the desktop which is what this was about. Its not about how many tech-calls you get for Windows desktops.
There seems to be an unwritten rule everywhere in BBS'ing that one must love Linux and hate MS. No exceptions. Its very amusing to me how
much I'm told "Windows sucks" when it powers a very large mail Hub
here with over a hundred downlinks.. 24/7, 365, 99% uptime...
So I used to use Linux as my primary desktop (on a laptop) for about 5
or so years (IIRC) at a major enterprise. Mail was Lotus Domino, I dont recall what VPN tool I used, Office was OpenOffice. OpenOffice was a
pain, especially if my peers used Microsoft Office and any documents or powerpoints need to be "adjusted" because of different fonts, etc.
I hated LibreOffice and thought it was 'the' choice on Linux for office suites, but have since found ONLYOffice and really like it. It looks and feels like MS
Office and I find myself getting some real work done with it.
I haven't tried OpenOffice and wonder what its like...
OpenOffice is what LibreOffice forked from (IIRC). I did many a
Linux has never been able to cut it on the desktop which is what this about. Its not about how many tech-calls you get for Windows desktops
Only for those that want to push the bleeding edge on it, and call some
of the extra eye candy available indispensible.
I think that goes back to MS-SOD and win 3.11. They were the company everyone loved to hate. And as they went on they became more and more overbearing. Most MS-SOD stuff was pretty solid for me, you'd get the
odd software badly written that'd screw things over... was able to configure 3.11 but never used it... skipped to 95 before I started down that path... the other thing was poor relative performance win 3.x was giving compared to ms-sod.
Spec
OpenOffice is what LibreOffice forked from (IIRC). I did many a
Yep that's right, before open office it was called star office and was open sourced by Sun, I forget who they bought it off. It's come a long
way since then. I remember how it was all sort of contained in one program, rather than split off into several programs like writer spreadsheets etc, really didn't like that much.
Andrew
Atreyu wrote to Arelor <=-
There seems to be an unwritten rule everywhere in BBS'ing that one must love Linux and hate MS. No exceptions. Its very amusing to me how much
I'm told "Windows sucks" when it powers a very large mail Hub here with over a hundred downlinks.. 24/7, 365, 99% uptime... no tinkering or babysitting needed. Ever.
MS is a sleezeball company but Linux fanatics, to me, are far more
fascist and intolerant, far more arrogant, far more likely to shove
their OS down my throat at every opportunity. Especially when I
disagree about "Desktop Linux".
Avon wrote to nblade <=-
yes this is an interesting comment to me also, I must be old school and
I still like to build my own hardware and run things on a desktop vs
using mobile and apps all the time. Sure I do the latter also but give
me a desktop and a big screen (if only! heh) and I'm a happy chappy.
Nightfox wrote to nblade <=-
I've often thought that migration to Linux would probably happen slowly rather than en masse. One problem is that, while there has been more
and more software developed for Linux, there are still some programs
for other platforms that don't have a version or an equivalent in
Linux, and it will take time to develop more Linux software. It's not going to happen overnight.
Another thing is that there are a lot of people these days who seem to mainly use a tablet or smartphone and might not even have a desktop or laptop computer to run Linux on. So for desktop operating systems, the market is probably more limited now than it used to be.
However, in recent years I have been seeing more software for Linux,
and it seems thereh as been more of an effort to support Linux from
some companies. I think one big hurdle is PC gaming - but Steam has
been supporting Linux more and more. I've also recently become aware
of Proton, which is supposed to help run some Windows games in Linux.
I've also seen more Linux native ports of some PC games as well.
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
* Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
deon wrote to nblade <=-
So I used to use Linux as my primary desktop (on a laptop) for about 5
or so years (IIRC) at a major enterprise. Mail was Lotus Domino, I dont recall what VPN tool I used, Office was OpenOffice. OpenOffice was a
pain, especially if my peers used Microsoft Office and any documents or powerpoints need to be "adjusted" because of different fonts, etc.
Atreyu wrote to Nblade <=-
All of my email accounts are Exchange/Outlook, even my personal. Not
any Imap/Pop3. There is not an equal Linux solution I've seen in terms
of GUI or usage that will talk to Exchange server. Sorry but Exchange onprem runs a lot of business and OWA won't cut it.
Yeah, I found ONLYoffice not so long ago and installed it at home -
looks good, although I havent used it extensively. Good to know that somebody else is liking it.
OpenOffice is what LibreOffice forked from (IIRC). I did many a presentation with it, and it worked well. The only challenge was collaboration, especially if the other editors were using MSOffice.
While it could read-write the docs, it always rendered differently - and when you present you cant have that :(
The biggest detractor for desktop linux IMO was a desktop suite. While Libreoffice is a pretty killer package, it's not Microsoft Office, and people used to one will take a while to get used to it.
Evolution does Outlook, but it has its quirks.
I haven't tried OpenOffice and wonder what its like...
The argument that Linux is not ready seems to come from people who have very specific requirements and preferences, and Linux doesn't match them exactly. I find Windows deficient in many ways, and lacking things that I'm use to in Linux. Virtual desktop support is only OK, no ability to do anything meaningful without running a GUI, and for that matter, I can't choose my GUI at all.
I hated LibreOffice and thought it was 'the' choice on Linux for office suites, but have since found ONLYOffice and really like it. It looks and feels like MS Office and I find myself getting some real work done with it.
again, when I ran a BBS back in the late 80's on DOS and later OS/2 I used
fiddle with things all the time - so maybe the choice of OS has nothing to d
with it? :-)
I get that fiddling comes with the territory... but for me, once my computers work the way I want them to, they are imaged and left alone.
I just don't have the time anymore... the endless nights messing around with some program or scripts or OS is long over with.
I haven't tried OpenOffice and wonder what its like...
I've often thought that migration to Linux would probably happen slow rather than en masse. One problem is that, while there has been more and more software developed for Linux, there are still some programs for other platforms that don't have a version or an equivalent in Linux, and it will take time to develop more Linux software. It's no going to happen overnight.
The biggest detractor for desktop linux IMO was a desktop suite. While Libreoffice is a pretty killer package, it's not Microsoft Office, and people used to one will take a while to get used to it.
Microsoft's improved cloud services are changing that. With a $99/year Microsoft365 subscription, you can get 5 people in your house with
Office for Windows or Mac, a terabyte of OneDrive space each, full Outlook application support (address books, notes, tasks, calendaring
and so on) and access to the web apps, which are pretty good now -- and run just fine on Linux.
Lots of companies offer discounted Microsoft365 subscriptions, too - I
pay $69/year for my 5 seats.
The argument that Linux is not ready seems to come from people who ha very specific requirements and preferences, and Linux doesn't match t exactly. I find Windows deficient in many ways, and lacking things t I'm use to in Linux. Virtual desktop support is only OK, no ability anything meaningful without running a GUI, and for that matter, I can choose my GUI at all.
Pretty none of those things are a problem for me. I'm generally using linux for CLI, although I recall no liking whatever the standard GUI was back whenever it was I tried it, let me count the years... Aside from VirtualBox I have no use for any kind of virtual desktop either.. I tend to be fairly general purpose, but one of the reasons for using Windoze
on the every day is in fact within reason and the worst exception that comes to mind is Win8 looks and uses pretty much like every other
version.
Spec
I've gotten the feeling that corporate customers are Microsoft's
customer, and we're along for the ride, for some time now.
Lol, every year since Windows NT4 someone somewhere somehow reposts this same apocalyptic nonsense and of how "This will be the year of the Linux Desktop".
I don't know exactly what technically happens during a Linux install that seems to turn otherwise smart logical BBS guys into retarded fanatical screaming teenage girls eager to give Torvalds a fingerlicking-good blowjob while everyone who runs Windows or remotely an MS fan is looked upon as having little pointed ears and a pitchfork tail.
I'm a bit like this also... is the radio software for HAM purposes or something else? Just curious :)
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows will see an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the "deficiencies" that are claimed are really a matter of the alternative not matching their habits.
Ok, yeah... I think OnlyOffice looks and functions more like the
standards that most folks are used to... I'm gonna keep hunting for more templates and/or pre-made .doc files; I'm sure they're out there...
If you didn't like LibreOffice, I think you will hate OpenOffice. OpenOffice is LibreOffice with worst performance.
It's funny but I never heard of OnlyOffice. I'll have to look at that.
claw wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Move to Linux.
If you are not a gamer then you really have no reason to be on Windows anymore. If you really need some piece of software you can typically
run it in wine, proton, or use a FOSS alternate.
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows will see an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the "deficiencies" that are claimed are really a matter of the alternative not matching their habits.
The desktop suite is a wrong approach to a problem to begin with. Office software,
ase and generated documentation could have been better.
I use Office a lot at work, and I estimate that at least 75% of the time I use this
Anyway this is a VERY long whine, but it is fun reading this discussion now as I amin
the middle of moving my daily driver to Linux. I want to like Linux. But it is
slovenly on the desktop. Some of it may be my distribution choice. I don't know.
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows will an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the "deficiencies" that a claimed are really a matter of the alternative not matching their hab
I think one of its limiting factors, is there is no compelling reason to use a linux desktop. If some large proportion of business uses
something then it is generally going to be easier to stick with that as
a "standard".
For my money both a deficient... but also good enough for what they have to do.
Spec
It's funny but I never heard of OnlyOffice. I'll have to look at that.
One thing to be sure of that for a lot of places are going towards
things like Google Drive (or whatever they call it). My current place of employment uses it. Now Googles products have no where near the features that any of other office products have but I would argue that it works
for most of the basic stuff people do.
... Origin of Life? Just check my refrigerator...
I am sympathetic to Microsoft's reason for doing this, but my suggestion to Microsoft is when people aren't installing updates and rebooting with any regularity, change the theme to Hot Dog Stand and have an annoying pulsing thing in the notification area or something until they do --
don't reboot their damned systems forcibly so they lose work.
Well, this has been an interesting bunch of messages because I just
spent the last week migrating back to Linux after about a decade of
using Windows.
Windows 10 Home Edition was a travesty of an operating system. A travesty, for no other reason, than its forced-reboot crap, which caused me initially to lose data in the event I left a document open (not a
good habit but it happened a few times), or in cases where I was
rendering a fractal or something and Microsoft made the decision for me
to reboot. This is intolerable. The idea that I have to pay more to
have Microsoft not forcibly reboot my system steams my proverbial clams.
I am sympathetic to Microsoft's reason for doing this, but my suggestion to Microsoft is when people aren't installing updates and rebooting with any regularity, change the theme to Hot Dog Stand and have an annoying pulsing thing in the notification area or something until they do --
don't reboot their damned systems forcibly so they lose work.
I was also convinced that Windows 10 would be, in essence, the last version of Windows, receiving endless incremental updates. When Windows 11 came out, I thought, "you have to be kidding me." And, of course, it won't run on my current system. By the time Win10 is officially EOL'ed, I'll have a more current system but frankly that little blip a few
months ago where they were experimenting with ads in the file manager, I thought, "Yeah...no. I think I am done with this company."
I spent 2002-2009 running Gentoo on my desktop, and that was, in the end, disastrous because while I loved the whole philosophy behind Gentoo
(it's like Linux for BSD fans), when it broke, it *really* broke, disastrously. After one too many times of that happening I went back to Debian Stable for two years and at the time there was no decent video editing solution, and so I switched to Windows 7 out of disgust, keeping
a headless, shell-only Linux system on a separate system. This was a
nice combination. I lived in PuTTY all day and had the best of both worlds.
The best Linux desktop I've ever used was KDE 3.5.9 - it was probably
the high water mark for the Linux desktop, and, well, I'd hoped that modern KDE would be even better. I'm typing this on Kubuntu now, and I have to say the migration to it has been...irritating.
I can't speak for the Linux desktop as a whole, but Kubuntu is sloppy. Quirky. And full of little irritations, most of which I've fixed but
I've noticed my patience for these quirks is not what it once was.
There is an old saw that Linux is a great operating system if your time
is worthless. Well, that's absolutely *not* true for the shell, which
is the real draw for me, but as for the desktop (well, at least
Kubuntu), it has taken far too much time to get myself to where I'm at now. Sound is still stupid; whole inputs are missing in Audacity, like
my line in, which I need to record from. Just doesn't show up.
As to your point, though, workflow on operating systems is an issue.
How much can you stand to change workflow based on habits which may be decades old? One truly infuriating thing I can't fix is desktop icons will execute with a single click, which is not what I am used to (and
will never be used to), and the settings option will make
double-clicking necessary everywhere (like in Dolphin, the file manager, for instance) - EXCEPT on the stupid desktop.
And here's a major annoyance: Linux is fairly terrible with cloud
storage, except for Dropbox. And Dropbox has this piddly little free plan, and then it wants me to pay $120 a year for way more storage than
I need. There is no lighter usage tier. Cloud storage is worth $60 a year to me - $5 a month, so of course Dropbox doesn't have any such plan.
I use an iPhone (I had three Androids before it, and I definitely prefer the iPhone for a variety of reasons), and forget iCloud - at least,
forget mounting it as a drive anywhere (you can do this with Dropbox).
So now I have this clunky web-only interface with iCloud, and have had
to move various other resources over to the piddly free Dropbox tier. I have two cloud services now and I don't want two. I want everything integrated nicely, and Apple would, of course, like me to buy a Mac,
which I do not want to do.
One of my tasks over the coming months, and I have little patience for this anymore, is to try some other distributions, and especially window managers/windowing environments, to see if they better suit my needs.
I think have replicated about 90% of my needs in Kubuntu now, after a
lot of profanity and manual compiling, and that brings me to another gripe. I don't like all of this chaotic packaging business, with flatpaks, snaps, and the traditional package managers. I don't have any problem with any *one* of them, but by now I really wish there was a single standard way of packaging things.
Then there are the multiple network configuration methods, and I need to untangle all of that business at some point.
I guess I could compare this to the pure ugly chaos of Windows 10's weirdly inconsistent configuration/settings pages, the need to
*sometimes* go into the control panel and get those old Windows NT
looking settings dialogs...SOMETIMES, only for other things to be modern.
Maybe it's just me but right now things really seem messy to me on both the Microsoft end and the Linux end.
I'd love there to be some order. The BSDs have order but what they
don't have is, oh, the ability to basic everyday things like play
Netflix videos, on account of the futile DRM Netflix insists on using. I'd love to listen to the suits rationalizing that, like, oh if we don't DRM our shows, people might pirate them.
I can capture them with OBS just fine as it is. And I can, of course, pirate the hell out of them with Bittorrent if I am so inclined. But
what I cannot do is play them legally in FreeBSD, which seems downright stupid since, it is at least rumored, Netflix is using one of the BSDs
on the server side.
Here is one last gripe: there is no equivalent of Irfanview for Linux. Irfanview is, so far as I can tell, the best image viewer I've ever
used, and gwenview, the Linux alternative which is widely recommended in its place, is fairly pathetic by comparison. Surprisingly, it won't
even display HEIC files, which is the default image file the iPhone
uses. I had to compile a plugin from github to enable that. I don't
know if it's a patent thing or what. In any case, it is a *major* gap,
to not be able to display the default image format of iPhones (whether Apple should use this widely unsupported format is a fair question, but
it is what it is.)
Anyway this is a VERY long whine, but it is fun reading this discussion now as I am in the middle of moving my daily driver to Linux. I want to like Linux. But it is slovenly on the desktop. Some of it may be my distribution choice. I don't know.
The desktop suite is a wrong approach to a problem to begin with. Offi software,
ase and generated documentation could have been better.
I use Office a lot at work, and I estimate that at least 75% of the tim use this
Yes and no. When you want to produce a printer-ready report, a program that lets you
edit paper-alike documents is not a bad aproximation to the task.
That said, when you want to produce an electronic-only document you are better off
using other alternatives that generate output which is easy to convert to different
formats later on. For example, I use Wrodgrinder for writing short stories, because I
get an output in a relatively portable format which I can painlessly convert into a
printer-ready format later if need be.
--
Anyway this is a VERY long whine, but it is fun reading this discussion as I amin
the middle of moving my daily driver to Linux. I want to like Linux. B is
slovenly on the desktop. Some of it may be my distribution choice. I d know.
A problem with FOSS desktop environments is that many are attempting to
be look-alikes
of mainstream platforms. That always fails because you are never going
to be a better
Mac Desktop Environment than Mac Desktop Environment.
I have much more respect for things like the Calm Window Manager or DWM because they
are what they want to be. Bonus points because they waste less resources and are
actually faster to worth with once you learn them (which definitively takes time).
KDE can be made to open and execute programs upon doubble click rather than single
click by the way. IN fact I think such behaviour is so for many distributions which
ship KDE.
If I wanted to use something Windowsy or Macy I would run Windows or Mac, personally.
People who moves to Linux expecting to have a Windows-like experience
seem so weird to
me.
--
People don't see the compelling reason, which is software freedom and moving to a different model of software creation, distribution and ownership. People tend to compare objects from what is printed on the box, and mis the meta-analysis, the relationship between you and the software, and the implications of making this or that choice.
Windows 10 Home Edition was a travesty of an operating system. A travesty, for no other reason, than its forced-reboot crap, which caused me initially to lose data in the event I left a document open (not a good habit but it happened a few times), or in cases where I was rendering a fractal or something and Microsoft made the decision for me to reboot. This is intolerable. The idea that I have to pay more to have Microsoft not forcibly reboot my system steams my proverbial clams.
The majority of programmers are like doctors: doing something good or interesting for humanity is a great thing, but it's the benefits, house, car, and foreign holidays they're ultimately after. Personally, I love the idea behind the GNU movement, but nothing motivates innovation quite like cold hard cash.
OpenOffice is what LibreOffice forked from (IIRC). I did many a
Yep that's right, before open office it was called star office and was open sourced by Sun, I forget who they bought it off. It's come a long way since then. I remember how it was all sort of contained in one program, rather than split off into several programs like writer spreadsheets etc, really didn't like that much.
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows
will see an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux
will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the
"deficiencies" that are claimed are really a matter of the
alternative not matching their habits.
That seems like a fairly negative view of the profession. I'm a software developer, but I got into this field because I actually enjoy it. I like making things (software) that are useful that people enjoy using. It's also about solving problems, which can be fun.
I think I'd have a hard time doing something if I didn't really enjoy
it, even if there was a lot of money in it.
I can capture them with OBS just fine as it is. And I can, of course, pirate the hell out of them with Bittorrent if I am so inclined. But
what I cannot do is play them legally in FreeBSD, which seems downright stupid since, it is at least rumored, Netflix is using one of the BSDs
on the server side.
Here is one last gripe: there is no equivalent of Irfanview for Linux.
Kind of worrying that people are moving more and more to "cloud
computing" and subscription services, where they are more at the mercy
of other companies.
Here is one last gripe: there is no equivalent of Irfanview for
Linux.
irfanview is just a knockoff of pmview. unfortunately the same problem
The majority of programmers are like doctors: doing something good or interesting for humanity is a great thing, but it's the benefits, house, car, and foreign holidays they're ultimately after. Personally, I love
the idea behind the GNU movement, but nothing motivates innovation quite like cold hard cash.
I don't ever see Linux becoming a truly mainstream desktop, because
there isn't enough money to attract the necessary talent and there are simply too many cooks trying to bake the same piece of pie. Without standardisation, software development on Linux will always be
problematic for commercial developers - DPI support is one of many
issues that M$ and Apple solved through standardisation.
In fact, M$ stole the entire PC market in the early 90s when they
decided to assimilate an established hardware standard into their WDM driver model: instead of building to the IBM PC standard, third-party manufacturers would now build to their own specifications and
standardise via the WDM model - without a Windows driver, you couldn't
use the hardware. This is when the IBM PC truly became the M$ PC, and Linux devs have been reverse engineering WDM drivers ever since.
I'd love to see the Linux desktop become a standardised environment
where both users and developers can thrive, but Apple already did this
20 years ago and called it Mac OS X. When looking for a truly viable
Unix desktop, Mac OS X is where most commercial/corporate developers
will go.
================================================================== TALIADON (Lee Westlake) | TALIADON BBS (taliadon.ddns.net:23)
FidoNet: 2:250/6 | fsxNet: 21:3/138 | Email: taliadon-bbs@mail.com ==================================================================
The majority of programmers are like doctors: doing something good or interesting for humanity is a great thing, but it's the benefits, hou car, and foreign holidays they're ultimately after. Personally, I lov idea behind the GNU movement, but nothing motivates innovation quite cold hard cash.
That seems like a fairly negative view of the profession. I'm a software developer, but I got into this field because I actually enjoy it. I like making things (software) that are useful that people enjoy using. It's also about solving problems, which can be fun.
I think I'd have a hard time doing something if I didn't really enjoy
it, even if there was a lot of money in it.
Nightfox
--- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
Hallo boraxman,
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows
will see an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the "deficiencies" that are claimed are really a matter of the
alternative not matching their habits.
Well, I've started my computer career (after the C64 phase in the
early 90s) with a MS-DOS/Win3 system and upgraded to Win95 (starting with the March '95 beta!).
I liked it and played around with that quite a lot, later I upgraded
to Win98. But with the deep integration of IE, I more and more
disliked it and moved to OS/2, which I had seen running on a BBS PC of some sysop.
Later, I moved to Linux and stayed there (with some years of MacOS on
my main desktop machine).
So, I should be preferring the Windows style of computing, as I
started there. But I don't.
Today, I have to use Windows on my work machine, but I'm thankful that
I could install MobaXterm, which contains a local bash shell.
There are quite some tasks where I need some of the basic UNIX text mangling commands that don't have feasible equivalents on Windows.
I only have a Windows PC at home for Fusion 360 (3D design) and some
old Windows games, my main desktop (and the one of my wife) are
running Linux (KDE Plasma).
Regards,
Anna
Kind of worrying that people are moving more and more to "cloud computing" and subscription services, where they are more at the merc of other companies.
we've gone back in time.. just a bunch of VT100 terminals connecting to the university's mainframe.
... You can learn many things from children... like how much patience
OpenOffice is what LibreOffice forked from (IIRC). I did many a
Do you develop for a company, or as a hobby? Because the experience between these two modes of development is vastly different. I do enjoy programming as a hobby, because I enjoy the intellectual pursuit, just making the computer do what I want (which is what drew me to it in the first place), and making my life a little easier. Thought about doing it for a career, but I'd had to do thing the companies way, which I may not enjoy.
People don't see the compelling reason, which is software freedom and moving to a different model of software creation, distribution and ownership. People tend to compare objects from what is printed on the
Kind of worrying that people are moving more and more to "cloud computing" and subscription services, where they are more at the mercy of other companies.
Agreed, but this happens less often that you think. I write procedures and protocols at work. It would be better for me to write these in markdown, org mode or some other simpler format, and have it 'processed' into a PDF for printing and signing. One could then use this text data as input for other documents, or publish via HTML. Instead, we have a weird system where you upload a .DOCX file to some document management software.
Spectre wrote to boraxman <=-
People don't see the compelling reason, which is software freedom and moving to a different model of software creation, distribution and ownership. People tend to compare objects from what is printed on the
Yeah, nah.. that might be alright for those as care, but the average
mug pooterist these days...just wants something that works, with the things they have to interact with... you can wrestle with a linux gui until it might finally do what you need, or you get the default install
of WindBlows, and bolt on whatever mediocre software will do your
bidding despite any perceived shortcomings... how it comes about is far less important than it does what you need it too.
When either one will do the job its just a matter of how, then no there
is no compelling reason to swap from one to another. It's not like
you're going to be able to bang out an email, write a document of your preferred perusausion, browse the interwebs or play the occasional
game... to the exclusion of the alternate platform... so no...
Think of it this way... the Apple II had Visicalc, it was "THE" killer application people bought the II to run the software... there is
nothing equivalent on either platform now.
Spec
Spectre wrote to boraxman <=-
Agreed, but this happens less often that you think. I write procedures and protocols at work. It would be better for me to write these in markdown, org mode or some other simpler format, and have it 'processed' into a PDF for printing and signing. One could then use this text data as input for other documents, or publish via HTML. Instead, we have a weird system where you upload a .DOCX file to some document management software.
That sounds like either poor corporate planning, or an adhoc addition
to fill a perceived void rather than an indictment of any particular software....
Spec
Agreed, but this happens less often that you think. I write procedures and protocols at work. It would be better for me to write these in markdown, org mode or some other simpler format, and have it 'processed'
into a PDF for printing and signing. One could then use this text data as
input for other documents, or publish via HTML. Instead, we have a weird
system where you upload a .DOCX file to some document management software.
That sounds like either poor corporate planning, or an adhoc addition to fill
a perceived void rather than an indictment of any particular software....
Spec
*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: The future's uncertain, the end is always near. (21:3/101)
to reboot. This is intolerable. The idea that I have to pay more to
have Microsoft not forcibly reboot my system steams my proverbial clams.
don't reboot their damned systems forcibly so they lose work.
version of Windows, receiving endless incremental updates. When Windows 11 came out, I thought, "you have to be kidding me." And, of course, it won't run on my current system.
The best Linux desktop I've ever used was KDE 3.5.9 - it was probably
the high water mark for the Linux desktop, and, well, I'd hoped that modern KDE would be even better. I'm typing this on Kubuntu now, and I have to say the migration to it has been...irritating.
I can't speak for the Linux desktop as a whole, but Kubuntu is sloppy. Quirky. And full of little irritations, most of which I've fixed but
I've noticed my patience for these quirks is not what it once was.
decades old? One truly infuriating thing I can't fix is desktop icons will execute with a single click, which is not what I am used to (and
will never be used to), and the settings option will make
double-clicking necessary everywhere (like in Dolphin, the file manager, for instance) - EXCEPT on the stupid desktop.
One of my tasks over the coming months, and I have little patience for this anymore, is to try some other distributions, and especially window managers/windowing environments, to see if they better suit my needs.
I don't like all of this chaotic packaging business, with
flatpaks, snaps, and the traditional package managers. I don't have any problem with any *one* of them, but by now I really wish there was a single standard way of packaging things.
I'd love to listen to the suits rationalizing that, like, oh if we don't DRM our shows, people might pirate them.
what I cannot do is play them legally in FreeBSD, which seems downright stupid since, it is at least rumored, Netflix is using one of the BSDs
on the server side.
Anyway this is a VERY long whine, but it is fun reading this discussion now as I am in the middle of moving my daily driver to Linux.
Kind of worrying that people are moving more and more to "cloud
computing" and subscription services, where they are more at the mercy
of other companies.
I honestly don't know what you mean.. I ran Windows 10 since it was released and don't remember ever being forced to reboot.
Nightfox
Interesting, I hadn't heard of PMView (or maybe I have and forgot). It looks like PMView definitely has been around longer than IrfanView.
On 28 Jun 2022, Nightfox said the following...
I honestly don't know what you mean.. I ran Windows 10 since it was
released and don't remember ever being forced to reboot.
If its connected to the Internet it will eventually get updates and ask you to reboot it. If you choose to ignore it, then it will eventually just do it for you when you least expect it.
Interesting, I hadn't heard of PMView (or maybe I have and forgot).
It looks like PMView definitely has been around longer than
IrfanView.
You know I hadn't heard of it either. Looks like it was originally made for OS/2, which could be why. My guess IrfanView is more well known because it is free for non-commercial use.
Re: Re: Old computer
By: nblade to Nightfox on Wed Jun 29 2022 02:57 pm
Interesting, I hadn't heard of PMView (or maybe I have and forgot).
It looks like PMView definitely has been around longer than
IrfanView.
You know I hadn't heard of it either. Looks like it was originally ma for OS/2, which could be why. My guess IrfanView is more well known because it is free for non-commercial use.
I saw that too. I had used OS/2 for a bit around 1996-1998 and I still hadn't heard of PMView.
It looks like PMView is shareware though (costs money to keep using it), whereas IrfanView is free.
I saw that too. I had used OS/2 for a bit around 1996-1998 and I
still hadn't heard of PMView.
Yeah, PM originally meaning "Presentation Manager" :)
There was a decent amount of quite impressive OS/2 software.. though yeah,
nblade wrote to paulie420 <=-
One thing to be sure of that for a lot of places are going towards
things like Google Drive (or whatever they call it). My current place
of employment uses it. Now Googles products have no where near the features that any of other office products have but I would argue that
it works for most of the basic stuff people do.
Yes my point is that most people don't really inderstand what they are buying or doing. The fact they don't makes them prey. Companies
I honestly don't know what you mean.. I ran Windows 10 since it was
released and don't remember ever being forced to reboot.
If its connected to the Internet it will eventually get updates and ask you to reboot it. If you choose to ignore it, then it will eventually
just do it for you when you least expect it.
And you can disable that. I've done it before.
The majority of programmers are like doctors: doing something good or interesting for humanity is a great thing, but it's the benefits, house, car, and foreign holidays they're ultimately after. Personally, I love
the idea behind the GNU movement, but nothing motivates innovation quite like cold hard cash.
As much as I want to disagree with you... the facts are on your side... it's not that the FOSS world isn't there and thriving... it is, but if you compare it to where all cash is, it's not in the same orbit... I love linux (god bless Torvalds!) it's an amazing adaptation of software to do exactly what is needed and not the shotgun approach micros***t and other big corporations take in just trying separate users from their dollars...
...and some corporate IT departments could do to read this too. Reboot machines to force updates if you have to, but for F's sake please don't
do it in the middle of the business day with little to no warning!
I saw that too. I had used OS/2 for a bit around 1996-1998 and I sti hadn't heard of PMView.
I bought a copy of OS/2 Warp! (3.0???) when it came out. At the time,
it was superior for multitasking than anything else on a PC. Some were using Desqview/386, but that was a text-mode thing. If you wanted a GUI to do multitasking, OS/2 was a pretty good bet.
I was into it because at the time I ran a BBS but I only owned one computer. So, I didn't have to take the board down to do other things.
Shit. I couldn't even get people to save their work at the end of the
day to allow for updates and needed reboots.
Management agreed to it, and we told everyone to log off or reboot at
the end of each day and that if they failed to save their work, TOO
EFFING BAD.
That went great until the President of the Company didnt save her work
and I got chewed out for rebooting her PC at 3AM.
This is why I got out of IT. No matter what happened, it was ALWAYS my fault.
This is why I got out of IT. No matter what happened, it was ALWAYS my fault.
And you can disable that. I've done it before.
https://bit.ly/3ucbuFE
Full link: https://winbuzzer.com/2021/09/14/how-to-stop-automatic-restart-in-windows- ter-a-windows-update-xcxwbt/
Sometimes I do tasks with my computer that take many hours (video upscaling or conversion, etc.) and I can't have it reboot in the middle
of that, which is when I found out how to disable the automatic reboot/updates process.
Nightfox
Standards are missing, but standards are only standards when people
choose to follow them. Discipline and willingness to abide is really the issue, not the existence of standards.
I struggle with Windows, and the myriad of different "save as" dialog boxes that present themselves to me during the working day.
I think Microsoft ruined computing, the way that Henry Ford ruined transportation. The motive was to make it as available to everyone, as much as possible, as quickly as possible, and the result is a mess. It's hard for people to see that, because we know nothing else, and we are brought up to believe that personal innovation and individual success is the be all and end all. A very American way of looking at things, and ultimately, a dead end.
Computers at work now are utterly awful because of Microsofts vision and goal. I spend so, so, so much time juggling applications, files, and so much time doing things manually that could, should, be automated.
It is this way because computing evolved with a particular business
model, the one you described, and with the 'cloud', things are getting worse as we cede autonomy and sovriegnty of our own digital lives to corporations.
We kind of intuitively know the Windows/sold software model is broken, because a LOT of software is bespoke, created to solve a particular purpose, not a shrink wrap product. The problem is that software still
is packaged and tries to be THE solution. The GNU way makes more sense. You have hardware, tools, and you put them together in a way which solves your problem, modifying, writing new software, or commissioning it as you see fit. It leans itself more to asking "how can I make this computer do X" instead of "where can I find an app that does X". Your OS should be 'the app', and you interact directly with it to solve problems, do you work, instead of merely being the vehicle to launch apps from. For example, "how can I make the computer file a specification, update the database of products the specifications refers to and supercede the old one by taking necessarily input from a single dialog box and then automating all the later processes" would be a question answered by creating a workflow within the OS. Instead, we use all these different "apps" to do each of these tasks manually, which means humans grappling with machines.
acn wrote to boraxman <=-
Well, I've started my computer career (after the C64 phase in the
early 90s) with a MS-DOS/Win3 system and upgraded to Win95 (starting
with the March '95 beta!).
As much as I want to disagree with you... the facts are on your side... it's not that the FOSS world isn't there and thriving... it is, but if
you compare it to where all cash is, it's not in the same orbit... I
love linux (god bless Torvalds!) it's an amazing adaptation of software
to do exactly what is needed and not the shotgun approach micros***t and other big corporations take in just trying separate users from their dollars...
I much prefer linux on an amazingly crafted mac where the fan never
comes on to a hideous windoze box that always seems like it trying push boulders up a hill each and every day... sputtering and wheezing all day long... there is elegance to the simplicity of linux, but people are mostly driven by money... that's why we are where we are, it's
undeniable, just unfortunate...
I too love the FOSS community, but where there's cash there's direction - the peopl
IMO, the main issue with the FOSS community is lack of direction - too much crossov
Perhaps it's better for the Linux desktop to remain separate/discrete from the comm
Well, I've started my computer career (after the C64 phase in the
early 90s) with a MS-DOS/Win3 system and upgraded to Win95 (starting
with the March '95 beta!).
Those betas made for crazy times. Features would come and go with
different versions - at one point they added Netware file services in to one of the Chicago betas, which made my netware servers unavailable, as it responded to client requests faster than the loaded servers.
Spectre wrote to boraxman <=-
Yes my point is that most people don't really inderstand what they are buying or doing. The fact they don't makes them prey. Companies
I think you're badly confusing, not understanding, and not caring, so
long as it works... functionality is 95%. The rest is semantics.. if
it comes with Winblows good enough, if it comes with linux probably tricker to set up IMHO but still good enough...
Spec
The idea that Linux is built by hippies coding in basements for the fun
of it is long
gone. If you check the kernel mailing list, it is all corporative contributors as of
late. Linux is a corporative product built using an open-source-free
model because it
better suits the needs of the corporations rolling it out.
BTW another reason why I like the BSD is that they tend to have a more cohesive vision
when it comes to develoment XD
Standards & adherence is indeed a cooperative rather than pre-emptive relationship, but standards are the only way to reliably factor scale
into multi-domain projects. Back in the day when layouts/designs started to employ IC units smaller than our lithographic wavelength, we often employed Unix/Solaris boxes in order to develop bespoke OPC/Phase-Shift geometry processors - it was near impossible to do this manually once
the geometry had been separated out for masking. As we were never quite sure where this processing would need to take place - some designs would require post-process input from various disciplines - it had to be designed in such a way that it was portable across the entire organisation. As the operating environment was already standardised via x11, a language (POSIX C) & toolkit (Motif) standard were enough to get the job done successfully. But these were simpler times, when all of the program logic/data was designed from scratch and complex OS/inter-application transactions were not an end-user expectation.
Today, desktop functionality has become synonymous with the end-user experience, where components and features are expected to interact seamlessly and without fuss. In turn, even bespoke applications are now built using standardised paradigms, and commercial developers expect
their target OS/Framework/APIs to handle these standards as par for the co
Sadly, as of today, desktop Linux is far from being able to provide the cohesive GUI/Core integration that developers have come to expect from
the likes of Apple, Google, and M$ - even Qt struggles to traverse the minefield that is the Linux desktop (Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, Xfce;
Wayland, x11, etc). Ironically, Unix/Linux encompasses many standards under the hood, but for some unknown reason the GUI fraternity decided
to take an entirely different path altogether - each providing the developer with more headaches than solutions. It's not all bad news, however, as many Linux developers have now begun standardising their
apps around the Ubuntu core/desktop, with a "mileage may vary" caveat
for all other platforms. IMHO, herein lays the salvation of the Linux desktop: if developers pick a side, then both standards and users will eventually follow, not to mention the closed-source developers who abandoned Linux when 20+ years of desktop development failed to
establish any semblance of synergy. Of course, if the Linux community wants to remain an open-source arena where hobby projects can be recompiled against the user's chosen distro, then I'm happy for it to remain so, but it must also resign itself to a perpetual existence of "alternatives" and workarounds.
Imagine a world where mathematics hadn't been standardised through
number, algebra, geometry, and calculus - a world where every generation must stagnate whilst they reinvent the concept of quantity and magnitude all over again. IMHO, this is where the Linux desktop finds itself today.
I think this is more a GUI vs CLI issue than a M$ or Windows thing per
se. Generally speaking, most tasks are better suited to either one or
the other; I can't really blame Screwfix if I chose to purchase a
Phillips screwdriver to tighten a flathead screw.
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but this comes across as more of a
broader world view than any specific criticism of Ford. I suppose it depends upon which world we feel more comfortable in: one where a replacement alternator can be purchased off the shelf, or one where we have to go in search of like-minded people who happened to design their charabanc around a compatible specification. TBH, this really is the
same paradigm, but at disparate scales.
Perhaps we're back to the Screwfix analogy I used earlier: is M$ the real problem here, or the choices made by those who employ their products/services? M$, Apple, and Linux, all have back-end automation tools capable of solving this task.
Agreed. This is a trend that should concern many people, but it also represents the only way software companies can truly protect their investment in the 21st century. In direct response to the threat created by the warez/piracy scene, these companies have finally found a way toThis is a fundamental problem of "for profit" software development, and why computing is held back when software development is done just "for profit". The user doesn't have this problem, how a company can make money, but is hobbled because of someone elses need.
get users to pay for their product time and time again. TBH, the lease paradigm is nothing new in the corporate arena, but it looks like many developers are now adopting this approach across the board. Adobe is one that springs immediately to mind.
Again, M$, Apple, and Linux, all have generalised back-end technologies for solving specific problems, and all are ultimately destined to become the constituent part of a solution or "app". Linux itself, or the functionality that most people associate with Linux, is in and of itself
a collection of apps moderated by the Linux kernel.
Unfortunately, you find yourself in the unenviable situation where your employer has given you a wrench in lieu of a hammer.
Standards go beyond those ratified by documents, such as ISO standards or RFC, but also incorporate social expectations and practices.
The value of a standards is interoperability.
A standard language in mathematics exists to allow one to communicate
with another.
The standards for e-mail operation are not necessarily for e-mail, as Google could create their own protocol, proprietary and hidden, but they allow people to implement their own serves and clients, and for all these to inter-operate.
If you step back, the key here is inter-operability. Having data stored
in known formats, known standards, allows programs to share data between them. The standards though should exist to serve the user as much as the developer. While we may make things easier for developers of graphical environments, developers seem quite self-centered in thinking their own needs trump all.
For me, the problem is, how can a user use data they've stored in a spreadsheet, and have it available from another application, or script? The data we have tabulated in Excel, how can we insert that into a formatted document?
My point was more that a lot of importance is placed on standardised GUI appearance, especially for Linux, but it doesn't exist, not even in Windows. It is perhaps not as important as people thing. The fact that one program may look different to another is not a big deal. The fact
they can't readily stitch them together is.
You are correct, but it is not about repairs but how we solve problems. Ford solved a problem by producing a product that can be purchased, but the product was not the best solution to all the problems for which it
was applied. Cars are not the best solution for transit in a city, but because that is what was on offer (and pushed heavily), cities changes to accomodate the car, and were designed around that. Likewise, we use hardware to store and compute and manage data, and what was put on offer to do this, was discreet software packages, designed as suites, self-contained solutions. Just like how the car was a solution in and of itself, independent, each software package was the same. A total solution in and of itself which had no relationship to the computing ecosystem it was installed in.
Car manufacturers are not going to think about urban design which is
based on some other paradigm which doesn't involve selling their product, just as software companies don't think about solving computing problems based on other paradigms which don't involve selling their product. The Free Software model, because of its different mode of production, leverages existing tools more than proprietary software does. Software
is created more in mind of it being part of a large ecosystem it cooperates with, rather than a be-all solution against competitors.
Unix is built upon tools which are the building blocks for larger more complex solutions. Automation exists in Windows, though far limited, and in the Apple world, the only one worth a damn, is the BSD base.
Microsoft were doing what you would expect a company to do, but because they dominated the PC world, everyone was used to buying a computer which couldn't be made to do anything unless you purchased other packaged software. This is a fundamental problem of "for profit" software development, and why computing is held back when software development is done just "for profit". The user doesn't have this problem, how a company can make money, but is hobbled because of someone elses need.
Now think of how things could be, if people could share not just software and scripts, but techniques, "how to's", formula's, etc. IT
professionals working for companies wouldn't just be figuring out what software to install, but how to apply these techniques, using base tools, to create workflows and working environments. People would understand
how things work, for instance, how the documents generated are saved in the filesystem, how the parsing of CSV data works, etc, etc.
Unix is a little different in that it contains user tools for managing
and processing data, which can be composed to create more complex solutions. MS is just a blank slate that can't do anything. I'm not saying that Unix is the best example, but it does something important, give the owner of the computer immediate means to construct solutions. Basic functionality is exposed to the user (think of the OS as an API, cut, sed, awk, tr being functions), which can interface with a CLI, or even a GUI window. This doesn't replace all applications obviously, but can fill the gaps inbetween, the gap between say, generating a .DOCX and
a PDF version, or pulling data from a CSV and generating a report or document, or a simple database query, or to add data to an existing file, etc.
The way things work now, you open an application to edit data, then close the application. If you want to add a row of data, you open the application responsible, add the line, save, close. To get data, again, open the app, use that apps functionality to get the data. To put that data elsewhere, that is your responsibility. But for corporate use, the OS's desktop itself should be able to offer this common functionality. A widget or shortcut which brings up a dialog which shortcuts straight to the task being performed. A quick form which takes input and adds it correctly formatted to whatever file stores that data. Meta programs/widgets which use different apps and programs in concert to go all the way from initial input to the final output. Not having the user have to manually process the data all the way through.
On Fri Jul 1 12:13:00 2022, acn wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
"NetWare file services", which emulated a NetWare server, right?
But generally, adding those NetWare services and a client, which only
were half-baked (and -AFAIR- only NetWare 3 compatible), was a typical Microsoft move to kill NetWare.
Ditto. I built a homelab using Proxmox and a junk-shop Synology NAS and have a ultrawide monitor at my desk. I started using an email app
instead of a web app and don't know why I went with webmail in the
I'm a bit like this also... is the radio software for HAM purposes or something else? Just curious :)
Yes, I use them to program HAM radios. I have some DMR radios for
example that the only way you can program them is to use Windows based software. Right now that software still runs on XP. So I have an XP virtualbox that I use under Linux. Hell even if I didn't use Linux, I'd likely have a virtualbox or VMWare virtual Machine just to keep all the that software in one place and working.
Arelor wrote to TALIADON <=-
BTW another reason why I like the BSD is that they tend to have a more cohesive vision when it comes to develoment XD
acn wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
But generally, adding those NetWare services and a client, which only
were half-baked (and -AFAIR- only NetWare 3 compatible), was a typical Microsoft move to kill NetWare.
boraxman wrote to Spectre <=-
Functionality is only part if it. What does, say, using Facebook to
host your business really involve. I heard someone whos
business was no longer visible because Facebook zucced the account for
no known reason. These are the scenarios not considered. The company I work for is another example where there has been a lack of foresight.
Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I'm still running on some old Dell 19 inch monitors x 2 side by side... but one day the dream is to get something nice and big, by then I'll likely upgrade the desktop too which is currently an i3 with about 12
gig of ram and a mix of SSD and mechanical HD
It was expensive, but I upgraded to a 32" ultrawide monitor, Logitech
MX Keys keyboard and MX master mouse. I figure that if I'm going to
be working from home, I might as well optimize the heck out of it.
It was expensive, but I upgraded to a 32" ultrawide monitor, Logitech MX Keys keyboard and MX master mouse. I figure that if I'm going to be working from home, I might as well optimize the heck out of it.
It was expensive, but I upgraded to a 32" ultrawide monitor, Logitech
Out of curiosity, is it very curved or not so much? I'm wondering about the merits of the 'curve' as to my bear-of-little-brain the curve may be
a nuisance.
Standards go beyond those ratified by documents, such as ISO standard RFC, but also incorporate social expectations and practices.
Unfortunately, this simply isn't the case in the 21st century. Standards and "accepted/subjective practices" are diametrically opposed in almost every way imaginable; the days of corporate developers picking their preferred tools and "doing it their way" are long gone. This is
precisely the way it was back in my day - engineers often made
themselves "indispensable" by using techniques/methods that only they
were familiar with - and corporations are unlikely to make the same mistake again. From a corporate perspective, employees are no different from any other kind of asset, and thus should be transparently
replaceable once they become a liability. Of course, rather than playing the "irresistible force" to their "immovable object", creating your own business/product is a sure way of avoiding this scenario altogether.
Functionality is only part if it. What does, say, using Facebook to host your business really involve. I heard someone whos
business was no longer visible because Facebook zucced the account fo no known reason. These are the scenarios not considered. The company work for is another example where there has been a lack of foresight.
There's design in social media where you write once and syndicate everywhere - but you host the material on your site. Most of my content posted on other sites starts in my blog, so if my pages were zucced
(like that term) I'd still have the content online. I couldn't imagine building a business on FB and having the same thing happen.
Imagine getting your business' Facebook page into Google's caches and
then having it taken down, and search links breaking -- and I could imagine Facebook reselling a page link for the right price.
The only reason I'm still on FB is thinking I might need it if I restart
a freelance business or a side hustle.
Yep, that was Peak Microsoft - right after they made Windows 3.1 break
with DR-DOS.
My co-sysop at the time worked for Addstor, the company that
made a disk compression program similar to Stacker. They had a bear of a time getting Windows to run on it, but Microsoft's compression tool ran just fine. He could discuss at great length about the suspicions they had.
I used it to get the last bit of life out of a 70mb drive the BBS was running on... How far we've come.
An engineer doing things "his own way" is not equivalent to a company or an industry having its own methodology or techniques. But this is a little beside the point that I was trying to make. What we sometimes
get is code written in a way that only the developer can understand.
What I was trying to allude to was techniques or practices which are widely know, and can be adopted and adapted to solve particular
problems. For example, a way of using existing tools to create a
private internet-accessible file system, or a way of creating and accessing, modifying and appending to registers as an alternative to
using Excel. In short, a kind of "did you know you can build this with tools you've got in your backyard" way of thinking.
tassiebob wrote to DustCouncil <=-
version of Windows, receiving endless incremental updates. When Windows 11 came out, I thought, "you have to be kidding me." And, of course, it won't run on my current system.
Same here, and as a result Windows 10 might be the last version of
windows I run - because I'm definitely not buying new hardware just to jump to 11.
The best Linux desktop I've ever used was KDE 3.5.9 - it was probably
the high water mark for the Linux desktop, and, well, I'd hoped that
Kubuntu is my work daily driver, and for the most part just works.
I haven't had too many irritations, but my use case is probably
different to yours. I live in a terminal and web browser most of the
day, but also do some software development - which I find much less painful on Linux.
decades old? One truly infuriating thing I can't fix is desktop icons will execute with a single click, which is not what I am used to (and
Good luck - interested in hearing how you go. $employer has a
preference for Fedora, but I'd already well and truly installed Kubuntu
flatpaks, snaps, and the traditional package managers. I don't have any problem with any *one* of them, but by now I really wish there was a single standard way of packaging things.
107%
Warpslide wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
What do you think of the MX Keys keyboard? I was drooling over it but that was one of those things where what I already have works, but that
set did look nice.
Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Out of curiosity, is it very curved or not so much? I'm wondering about the merits of the 'curve' as to my bear-of-little-brain the curve may
be a nuisance.
I love it - it's got a nice positive feel - nothing near a mechanical
keyboard. The keys are dished, which makes touch typing feel easier.
It's heavy, so it doesn't slide around on my desk. And, it can
connect to 3 peripherals
I've spent most of my life typing on a Model M I got from work in
1992 or cheap keyboards, it was nice to splurge for once.
On Sun Jul 3 15:50:00 2022, Avon wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
Ditto. I built a homelab using Proxmox and a junk-shop Synology NAS and have a ultrawide monitor at my desk. I started using an email app instead of a web app and don't know why I went with webmail in theI'm still running on some old Dell 19 inch monitors x 2 side by side... but one
day the dream is to get something nice and big, by then I'll likely upgrade the
desktop too which is currently an i3 with about 12 gig of ram and a mix of SSD
and mechanical HD
tassiebob wrote to DustCouncil <=-
version of Windows, receiving endless incremental updates. When Windows 11 came out, I thought, "you have to be kidding me." And, of course, it won't run on my current system.
Same here, and as a result Windows 10 might be the last version of
windows I run - because I'm definitely not buying new hardware just to jump to 11.
The best Linux desktop I've ever used was KDE 3.5.9 - it was probably
the high water mark for the Linux desktop, and, well, I'd hoped that
Kubuntu is my work daily driver, and for the most part just works.
I haven't had too many irritations, but my use case is probably
different to yours. I live in a terminal and web browser most of the
day, but also do some software development - which I find much less painful on Linux.
decades old? One truly infuriating thing I can't fix is desktop icons will execute with a single click, which is not what I am used to (and
Good luck - interested in hearing how you go. $employer has a
preference for Fedora, but I'd already well and truly installed Kubuntu
flatpaks, snaps, and the traditional package managers. I don't have any problem with any *one* of them, but by now I really wish there was a single standard way of packaging things.
107%
I always tell my f&f not to upgrade to a new version of Windows for at least six months to a year. Previous Windows versions seem to be able to function well for quite a while, and 12 months gives Microsoft time to iron out the worst issues in a new version.
The best Linux desktop I've ever used was KDE 3.5.9 - it was
probably the high water mark for the Linux desktop, and, well, I'd
hoped that
I think there might be a little bit of a nostalgia bias there. Or you haven't tried very many different DEs since? There are some really good DEs out there now - I'm partial to Cinnamon on Linux Mint, Patheon
It appears this differs quite a lot between brands and models -- I see many curved gaming monitors being very curved, whereas my 34" ultrawide Samsung SE790 at work is hardly curved at all (at least not noticably
so).
That sounds like the kind of monitor for me, I worry about those
curves... I worry too much :)
Warpslide wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
The only thing I need to get used to is having a lot more keyboard to
my right, meaning that my mouse is somewhat further away than my muscle memory knows about... ;)
Nightfox wrote to Bex <=-
Cinnamon. I also run Linux Mint on my BBS PC, although for that I chose
to use the Xfce environment as it's a bit lighter.
I've been wondering how the BBS packages and utilities run - are
they console or GUI? My initial thought would be to run it
headless, like any other server, but if the software only runs in a x11/wayland/etc then that point is moot.
I always tell my f&f not to upgrade to a new version of Windows for at least six months to a year. Previous Windows versions seem to be able
to function well for quite a while, and 12 months gives Microsoft
time to iron out the worst issues in a new version.
Chuckle, I almost live by this, still on 7, and didn't move to 7 until
XP was so obsolete as to be in the grave. :) Only used anything later
in other locations where its already installed.
it down my throat about how great their boards are and mine is quaint. Mystic and Synchronet on Linux are wonderful - except DOS doors don't
work without convoluted nonsense or "doorparty"... I don't want to join
a party.
Of course if I'm paying periodically to use the product then it's fair enough for the vendor to discontinue the product - with appropriate
notice - at the end of the period. Sadly this seems to be the in thing these days, and I hate it.
And I think Jetbrains hits a nice happy medium. I keep my subscription to their IDEs up to date, but if I didn't, I'd still have a license for
older versions.
I'm well behind on messages (again), but I was entertained by this paragraph
Mostly because I expect that most everything I do with BBSing stuff will involve some level of convoluted nonsense.
Mostly because I expect that most everything I do with BBSing stuff will involve some level of convoluted nonsense.
I still use Eudora as an e-mail client, and that's so old that it's owned by the Computer History Museum.
I have a successful career in IT, at least I think so... but coming home from work I'm dead tired and mentally exhausted, just want to have a cold beer and relax without dealing with any tech problems.
When I come home, I just want to have a cold beer and lose myself in my own tech problems - at least they're surmountable. Tweaking the BBS? Fun. Deali with home wifi issues, not so much. :)
Adept wrote to tassiebob <=-
Of course if I'm paying periodically to use the product then it's fair enough for the vendor to discontinue the product - with appropriate
notice - at the end of the period. Sadly this seems to be the in thing these days, and I hate it.
Ugh. I'm with you on that.
I still use Eudora as an e-mail client, and that's so old that it's
owned by the Computer History Museum.
But with some hacks to make the security reasonable (stunnel is a requirement, these days) and the knowledge that having "Eudora" as the listed client ups messages on spam lists, it _still works_. And I can still periodically backup my e-mail by copying off a bunch of text
files that, if everything broke but the text files, I could write my
own parser.
Do I trust that Gmail or Office365 will exist in 20 years? Or that I'll
be able to use things without paying for them? Not really, no.
Will Eudora still work? Probably. Unless technology marches on a bit
too far.
When I come home, I just want to have a cold beer and lose myself in my own tech problems - at least they're
surmountable. Tweaking the BBS? Fun. Dealing with home wifi issues, not so much. :)
I used to use an old version of Eudora on the BBS, but I changed ports
and it's so old it can't talk to ports besides 25/110. We used it at a company I supported, were able to push out company address books, and if it borked, the messages were all in plaintext.
When was Eudora last updated? Does it even work with modern versions of Windows?
I don't think I've ever used it, but new clients have so many cool features to pass up.
I run it on Win10, with stunnel to handle the bits involving talking to the internet.
I guess 7.1 was released in 2006. I'm not really sure what version 8.0 of Eudora is, nor if Eudora Open Source Edition (from 2010) was useful or interesting.
And I guess Project HERMES now exists, that was based off of the Eudora source code. But that hasn't seen an update in two years.
I don't think I've ever used it, but new clients have so many cool features to pass up.
Like what?
It's possible that I'm missing various things, but while I use Outlook at work, I can't say there's much there that I appreciate more than having
my e-mail databases in plain text.
But I do mean that question seriously; it's possible that I should give
up on Eudora. I just haven't heard about any tempting features.
Unlike, oh, browsers, where the closest I'll get to an old browser is using frogfind.com or 68k.news. But I use those because lots of the internet would be better in plain text, not because I want to experience Netscape 1.0.
On Wed Jul 13 23:02:00 2022, Atreyu wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-
On 13 Jul 22 16:51:51, Poindexter Fortran said the following to Atreyu:
When I come home, I just want to have a cold beer and lose myself in my own
tech problems - at least they're surmountable. Tweaking the BBS? Fun. Deali
with home wifi issues, not so much. :)
I'm a huge fan of Aruba... their stuff "just works".
Unlike, oh, browsers, where the closest I'll get to an old browser is using frogfind.com or 68k.news. But I use those because lots of the internet would be better in plain text, not because I want to experience Netscape 1.0.
Adept wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
What'd you move to? And did it actually improve upon the Eudora
experience for you?
As far as Apple are concerned, I stand by my previous statement: Apple took BSD and turned it into the only commercially viable "Linux" desktop available today. It has the solid back-end we've come to expect from Linux, and so it's capable of much the same thing. As for M$, I think
you have to see the full stack in action to truly appreciate how good their technology is - if you're encumbered with the basic packages then other avenues are likely to present themselves as more amenable
solutions.
Spectre wrote to Bex <=-
least six months to a year. Previous Windows versions seem to be able
to function well for quite a while, and 12 months gives Microsoft
Chuckle, I almost live by this, still on 7, and didn't move to 7 until
XP was so obsolete as to be in the grave. :) Only used anything later
in other locations where its already installed.
That is dedication! Windows 7 was the best version of Windows, IMHO, but I think it's pretty far past itse Use By date.
Actually, I'd push back a bit here: I'd offer that Android does
that, perhaps even better than Apple.
TALIADON wrote to tenser <=-
Actually, I'd push back a bit here: I'd offer that Android does
that, perhaps even better than Apple.
Android certainly has Linux roots, and there's no arguing that it's commercially viable, but is it really a complete x11 desktop
environment?
Spectre wrote to Bex <=-
least six months to a year. Previous Windows versions seem to be able
to function well for quite a while, and 12 months gives Microsoft
Chuckle, I almost live by this, still on 7, and didn't move to 7 until
XP was so obsolete as to be in the grave. :) Only used anything later
in other locations where its already installed.
Actually, I'd push back a bit here: I'd offer that Android does
that, perhaps even better than Apple.
Android certainly has Linux roots, and there's no arguing that it's commercially viable, but is it really a complete x11 desktop environment?
Admittedly, I don't really know a thing about Android - I always
preferred the software/hardware synergy of Apple's offerings - so you
may well be right.
On Mon Jul 18 00:00:00 2022, SPECTRE(21:3/101) wrote to bex <=-My old 11 year old laptop I sent to the recycling center in the sky, could not suipport SSD drives. If it was able to handle a SSD drive, it could handle Windows 10 at least. But Windows 10 was so freaing sluggish and I ended up giving up for a Dell Ryzen laptop of 2021 vintage.
I don't have anything that requires anything later, but by the time I finally
dropped XP there were things I needed 7 for. I s'pose I can move along to the
next obsolete OS.... Win 8.. but I'm loathe to have anything to do with 8..
8.. My old 11 year old laptop I sent to the recycling center in the
sky, could not suipport SSD drives. If it was able to handle a SSD
8.. My old 11 year old laptop I sent to the recycling center in
the sky, could not suipport SSD drives. If it was able to handle a
SSD
So I have to ask, seeing as SSD's just look like standard SATA
interfaces why couldn't it handle one? Tres Strange...
Android certainly has Linux roots, and there's no arguing that it's commercially viable, but is it really a complete x11 desktop environment?
Admittedly, I don't really know a thing about Android - I always
preferred the software/hardware synergy of Apple's offerings - so you
may well be right.
I don't know if there's an RDP protocol server for Linux (I think there is), but that would be ideal - use any standard Windows environment to access a desktop environment that fits in your pocket...
So I have to ask, seeing as SSD's just look like standard SATAThe Bios couldnt handle it.
interfaces why
couldn't it handle one? Tres Strange...
Some controller chips just don't like SSD's. I have a LSI controller
here, that can only support hard drives. It see's the SSD is happer to write data to it ect, but after some time it start's generating errors like mad. I've also seen some that will only address a certian max TB
size of drive.
acn wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
There is xrdp. I'm running it on a machine here and can connect to it
via RDP, eg. from Guacamole or KRDC (KDE remote desktop client), or
from Windows mstsc.exe
Spectre wrote to vorlon <=-
Sizing makes sense, just like the old 500Mb bios limit.. I'm somewhat surprised at the chipsets not liking them though. Despite the mish
mash of semi antique equipment I have, I've never come across the
problem before.
There is xrdp. I'm running it on a machine here and can connect to it via RDP, eg. from Guacamole or KRDC (KDE remote desktop client), or from Windows mstsc.exe
I'll look into this. I hate VNC, and would love to standardize on one client for Windows and Linux hosts.
Thanks for the pointer.
I'll look into this. I hate VNC, and would love to standardize on one client for Windows and Linux hosts.
Thanks for the pointer.
[...]Some controller chips just don't like SSD's. I have a LSI
controller like mad. I've also seen some that will only address a certian max TB size of drive.
Sizing makes sense, just like the old 500Mb bios limit..
I'm somewhat surprised at the chipsets not liking them though. Despite
the mish mash of semi antique equipment I have, I've never come across
the problem before.
I'll look into this. I hate VNC, and would love to standardize on one client for Windows and Linux hosts.
Thanks for the pointer.
I've run xrdp on both my raspberry pi and a laptop running Ubuntu. I've connected to both via rdp on my win10 desktop and win11 laptop. The
only issue I've run into on Ubuntu is I cannot be logged in when trying
to connect from somewhere else. If I log out and keep Ubuntu running I can get in fine. It's not an issue with my raspberry. I've read it's an Ubuntu issue.
claw wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
I know network chuck just did a video on something like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsvS2M5knOw&list=LL&index=29
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to claw <=-
I know network chuck just did a video on something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsvS2M5knOw&list=LL&index=29
Can't trust him. He slurps his coffee.
Gamgee wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to claw <=-
I know network chuck just did a video on something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsvS2M5knOw&list=LL&index=29
Can't trust him. He slurps his coffee.
Agreed. I found his mannerisms quite annoying generally. It was like
he was trying too hard to be cute/funny.
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-
I know network chuck just did a video on something like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsvS2M5knOw&list=LL&index=29
Can't trust him. He slurps his coffee.
Agreed. I found his mannerisms quite annoying generally. It was like
he was trying too hard to be cute/funny.
I do appreciate his enthusiasm, he combines entertainment with a
love of what he does, and I've gotten some inspiration for my own
homelab along the way.
Maybe not out of the box, but there are some interesting experiments. I had a rooted android phone, and was able to run a full distro in a chroot'ed jail, using Android's Linux kernel.
Ran VNC server in the Linux instance, and was able to run a full windows environment locally on the phone using an Android VNC client, or run it from my desktop. It was an interesting experiment in taking your environment with you.
I don't know if there's an RDP protocol server for Linux (I think there is), but that would be ideal - use any standard Windows environment to access a desktop environment that fits in your pocket...
Oh no, it's not. But neither is the Mac (at least not without
installing an X11 server, like XQuartz). However, the Android
kernel is Linux, and the user experience and interface are
quite nice. Similarly with ChromeOS: Linux kernel, with a very
different userspace. The critical observation here is that
many use-cases are perfectly adequately served by a web browser.
It's curious how the world keeps reinventing the 3270 and VTAM.
Not by default, but you can get X for Android.
From the other comments posted here, this certainly appears to be the case. What's more, it's far more viable than I'd previously thought.
I quite like the idea of having Linux in my pocket, so I may even splash out on an Android phone and have a play :)
I love android, however if your main goal is to have Linux in the phone just put a bootloader in it and install ARM based Linux on it. If you actually still need it as a phone there are plenty to choose from if you don't need it to be a phone there are tons of distros.
If you don't already have a phone for this and are shopping buy one that is made for and comes with Linux on it.
https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/
or
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
or maybe
https://www.fxtec.com/pro1x
then there is
https://volla.online/en/
not to forget
https://www.fairphone.com/en/
The cool thing is its a phone that works like a computer. You can
install which ever OS you want on these.
Here are some phone based distros.
postmarketOS (Based on Alpine Linux)
UBports (Ubuntu Touch)
Mobian (Debian for mobiles)
Tizen (supported by The Linux Foundation)
KaiOS (based on Firefox OS)
Maemo (Debian)
ExpidusOS (Void Linux)
PureOSPlasma
MobileNemo
MobileNixOS
I'm sure there are tons more. It's been a while since I looked on to replacing boot loaders and the like on these. If you want an Android phone and the easy freedom to do what you want get a OnePlus phone.
They let you root your phone. Its a check box in the settings. they
see it as well you own your phone and as long as you know you won't get support once you mess it up. :D
Hope this helps someone.
Enjoy
I tried to put LineageOS, but found it was more complicated, having to unlock the bootloader and such. I cannot recall whether it turned out
not to be feasible for this phone or not, or whether I decided not to
take the risk.
In the end, I found that the OS preinstalled had a pretty good
ultra-power saving mode that I wasn't sure the other OS's would be able
to duplicate,and I realised that I just wanted a phone, not a computer. Running a full Linux desktop is cool and all, but what I NEED is phone
and message functionality, and if that is compromised, what is the
point? Long battery life and reliable telephony is critical, and all
the other stuff, web browsing, GPG, SSH client, I could already do.
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
I love android, however if your main goal is to have Linux in the phone just put a bootloader in it and install ARM based Linux on it. If you actually still need it as a phone there are plenty to choose from if you don't need it to be a phone there are tons of distros.
If you don't already have a phone for this and are shopping buy one that is made for and comes with Linux on it.
https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/
or
https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
or maybe
https://www.fxtec.com/pro1x
then there is
https://volla.online/en/
not to forget
https://www.fairphone.com/en/
The cool thing is its a phone that works like a computer. You can
install which ever OS you want on these.
Here are some phone based distros.
postmarketOS (Based on Alpine Linux)
UBports (Ubuntu Touch)
Mobian (Debian for mobiles)
Tizen (supported by The Linux Foundation)
KaiOS (based on Firefox OS)
Maemo (Debian)
ExpidusOS (Void Linux)
PureOSPlasma
MobileNemo
MobileNixOS
I'm sure there are tons more. It's been a while since I looked on to replacing boot loaders and the like on these. If you want an Android phone and the easy freedom to do what you want get a OnePlus phone.
They let you root your phone. Its a check box in the settings. they
see it as well you own your phone and as long as you know you won't get support once you mess it up. :D
Hope this helps someone.
This is precisely what I'm looking for - I'm not overly familiar with Android, so I don't want to find myself in the position where I'm wrestling with a system I don't understand.
On 07-26-22 11:42, TALIADON wrote to claw <=-
I'm happy with my iPhone for calls/texting, so it would really be an exercise in getting Linux into my pocket.
Well, that is kind of my point. People who are used to Windows will see an alternative as "deficient", wheras people used to Linux will find Windows deficient. This shows that much of the "deficiencies" that are claimed are really a matter of the alternative not matching their habits.
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me more quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me more quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
When I use Linux, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to choose among a couple of different file names with similar starts.
Perhaps I just need to be better about naming files to make sure my tab-complete needs line up with my OS.
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me more quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
When I use Linux, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to choose among a couple of different file names with similar starts.
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
The Windows command prompt has tab-complete for filenames...?
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
Doesn't Powershell do this? I'm pretty sure it does.
Perhaps I just need to be better about naming files to make sure my tab-complete needs line up with my OS.Nah, use better software or a better shell. Your computer should work
for you, not you adapt to work to its limitations.
When I use Windows, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to help me mo quickly type out part of a file name in the command line.
When I use Linux, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to choose among couple of different file names with similar starts.
Windows and Linux doe this perfectly. Is your tab key working?
What does _your_ tab key do? And are you using something custom?
Doesn't Powershell do this? I'm pretty sure it does.
I imagine there are always ways. That I am almost certainly not
interested in spending the effort to figure out.
I think I meant that mostly as a joke, as it's silly to name files based on tab-complete needs.
But only _mostly_, because I'd definitely consider it, if I thought that
I had a reasonable naming convention.
Does your tab key do something mine doesn't?
I type part of a file name in Windows, then tab through the options.
I type part of a file name in Linux, then tab to get to the next decision point, then type a bit more, then tab to complete (or get to the next decision point, or tab-complete with the previous one).
If I type enough of the file name that the names are unique on either system, the behavior would be exactly the same.
What does _your_ tab key do? And are you using something custom?
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
Does your tab key do something mine doesn't?
I type part of a file name in Windows, then tab through the options.
I type part of a file name in Linux, then tab to get to the next decision point, then type a bit more, then tab to complete (or
get to the next decision point, or tab-complete with the previous one).
If I type enough of the file name that the names are unique on either system, the behavior would be exactly the same.
Do you double tab? For me, at the decision point, double tab will list
all the available files that meet what you have typed so far and that it cannot proceed to complete because there is no longer uniqueness in your input.
When I use Linux, I'm annoyed that I can't tab-complete to choose among a couple of different file names with similar starts.
ZSH can do this. ZSH can do a lot.
ZSH can do this. ZSH can do a lot.
Why yes, yes it does! :) It was really hard for me to move away from bash, but I'm a complete zsh devotee now. It's conveniences are truly labor saving.
bex wrote to boraxman <=-
Why yes, yes it does! :) It was really hard for me to move away from bash, but I'm a complete zsh devotee now. It's conveniences are truly labor saving.
Could you elaborate? I'm getting into working with shells more, haven't looked at a shell other than Bash since the csh/bash wars of the late '80s.
I found a lot of things that I did with ZSH, BASH could do. I don't
know if I wrongfully thought they were ZSH only features, or if BASH had changed since I converted to ZSH, but I read through some BASH documentation and was thinking "I thought this was specific to ZSH..."
I add an "archived" extended attribute to any files I've put on my
archive drive, but still want to keep around, and I can list those files with ls *(+archived) or delete them with
In the end, all of the shells can do most of the same things, it's just a matter of how easy it is to do those things. zsh makes things like
working with history and searching easy-peasy. And oh-my-zsh plugins
make adding environment variables and variables a piece of cake.
I add an "archived" extended attribute to any files I've put on my archive drive, but still want to keep around, and I can list those fil with ls *(+archived) or delete them with
That is friggin BRILLIANT! I am going to implement that on my test system!
Have a place for everything and keep the thing somewhere else; this is
not advice, it is merely custom.
- Mark Twain
poindexter FORTRAN wrote to bex <=-
bex wrote to boraxman <=-
Why yes, yes it does! :) It was really hard for me to move away from bash, but I'm a complete zsh devotee now. It's conveniences are truly labor saving.
Could you elaborate? I'm getting into working with shells more, haven't looked at a shell other than Bash since the csh/bash wars of the late '80s.
Last one for now: zsh plugins. My favorite example is a silly little history plugin. The plugin creates a few different aliases which get processed when .zshrc is sourced, including "hsi" to do a
case-insensitve grep on history. It's something that I can easily replicate in bash, of course. I just think that it's cool to have it separated out into its own container. If I don't want to have those aliases anymore, in bash I have to go through my aliases file, finding
and deleting each one. In zsh, I just remove the plugin.
Silly stuff, but the expansion of tab completion and auto-complete history has sped up my productivity by a good 5%. Over an 8 hour day, I dig having time for another coffee break. :D
boraxman said to bex: <=-
The magic happens with this ZSH function. Note that you need to add zmodload zsh/attr
to your .zshrc as well to add support for extended attributes.
http://zzapper.co.uk/zshtips.html
Lots of good tips here. Will give you an indication of what you can do.
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