I've decided to put down a few words about BBSes and related
things at http://fat-dragon.org/
I plan to make something of a series of posts on engineering BBS
software on a modern platform.
I've decided to put down a few words about BBSes and related
things at http://fat-dragon.org/
a few words. lol. Just checking it out now. I think I'm going to need
to make a coffee and perhaps even get a couple of biscuits to get
through this :)
I've decided to put down a few words about BBSes and related
things at http://fat-dragon.org/
I plan to make something of a series of posts on engineering BBS
software on a modern platform.
Just finished reading it.. didn't take as long as I thought it would :) Nice article.
I wonder how much piracy had to do with the boom of the internet. I was a bit late connecting to the internet, I didn't even have a modem until
near the end of BBSing (I got my first modem perhaps 1996?) but I
remember napster being very popular, as well as warez sites, piracy and porn I reckon played a big part in getting the masses interested.
I have yet to read the post fully but I love the site and the efforts
your going to to post those thoughts. Kudos. I'll have a good read and post some comments when I have.
Can I ask how did you build the site,
curious to know what publishing tool(s)? you're using?
The site itself is generated using Hugo, which is a static site
generator package written in Go: https://gohugo.io
Cool thanks for the info. I'm looking for alternative ways to put up a website and this interests me as an option :)
Sure thing! There are a ton of these static site generators; I chose
Hugo because it's written in Go and looked nice. Jekyll is also popular, as I understand it; I'm sure there are others.
The next little installment in my blog is online. It may rub some folks the wrong way; that's not the intent. It's merely trying to set up some context for subsequent posts. I kind of rushed it because I wanted to
get writing technical content.
The next little installment in my blog is online. It may rub some
folks the wrong way; that's not the intent. It's merely trying to
set up some context for subsequent posts. I kind of rushed it
because I wanted to get writing technical content.
I've decided to put down a few words about BBSes and related
things at http://fat-dragon.org/
I plan to make something of a series of posts on engineering BBS
software on a modern platform.
On 11-28-18 13:24, apam wrote to tenser <=-
While I am sure many people come here for the nostalgia, I don't think that's why people stay. What we have here isn't just a trip down memory lane. Heck for the most part people aren't even running BBS software
that was written back then (yes I know mystic and synchronet were
around, but they're not what they were 20 years ago).
Personally, I'm having more fun now than I did back in the late 90s, I have more access to hardware, I can easily run a BBS without costing a fortune, the internet has enabled us to connect better, and I've met people I wouldn't have met were it not for the nostalgia that started
it.
Trying to recreate the culture of back then, I agree, is silly. The
whole l33t groups things, which is really more about division than anything else leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Also, expecting the same experience is foolish too. Most of us were
sysops then, so most of us want to be sysops now, users have moved on.
I think comparing the BBS scene from then, to comparing it now is a
little like apples and oranges. We're not expecting to get the world
back BBSing, just having fun sharing similar interests with each other.
don't think it's entirely about nostalgia.
have more access to hardware, I can easily run a BBS without costing a fortune, the internet has enabled us to connect better, and I've met people I wouldn't have met were it not for the nostalgia that started it.
little like apples and oranges. We're not expecting to get the world back BBSing, just having fun sharing similar interests with each other.
I have been toying with the idea of using tools like these (of which I know very little about) to generate a site for fsxNet. At present I have
a domain name and a wordpress clunky template for fsxnet.nz but am
looking for a better way yo do things. My site is hosted by a web host I use for my own domain name and bbs.nz amongst others.
I'd spent a little time looking at github and realised I might be able
to use tools such as you mention to do something like what you're doing.
I think? :)
It's just a time thing for me - not enough of it :)
OK will have a look tonight. Perhaps these are posts you may also like to publish as .txt files and add a file_id.diz to a .zip and they could be hatched to FSX_TEXT file base if you wanted? Just a thought.
I read your new article.
I'm not offended or anything, maybe I didn't
understand it, but I'm not sure I entirely agree about nostalgia, and I don't think it's entirely about nostalgia.
Personally, I'm having more fun now than I did back in the late 90s, I have more access to hardware, I can easily run a BBS without costing a fortune, the internet has enabled us to connect better, and I've met people I wouldn't have met were it not for the nostalgia that started it.
Trying to recreate the culture of back then, I agree, is silly. The whole l33t groups things, which is really more about division than anything
else leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Also, expecting the same experience is foolish too. Most of us were
sysops then, so most of us want to be sysops now, users have moved on.
I think comparing the BBS scene from then, to comparing it now is a
little like apples and oranges. We're not expecting to get the world back BBSing, just having fun sharing similar interests with each other.
Nice! I started reading it...
For me it's about enjoyable messaging. Not only is there good company in here, but the medium itself is just so much nicer to use than modern web forums. I don't feel like I'm trying to walk in treacle, when I'm
BBSing. Everything just works.
On 11/27/18, tenser pondered and said...
The site itself is generated using Hugo, which is a static site generator package written in Go: https://gohugo.io
Cool thanks for the info. I'm looking for alternative ways to put up a website and this interests me as an option :)
Personally, I'm having more fun now than I did back in the late 9
have more access to hardware, I can easily run a BBS without cost fortune, the internet has enabled us to connect better, and I've people I wouldn't have met were it not for the nostalgia that sta
This is interesting: to what end would one run a BBS, then? I'd
like to know what the motivation is. Some of it sounds like, "hey,
it's not the web." Ok, fair enough; but what about alternatives that aren't the web? For example, USENET?
This is interesting: to what end would one run a BBS, then? I'd
like to know what the motivation is. Some of it sounds like, "hey,
For fun. Why do people play with model trains? You could say nostalgia is what sparked the interest in the first place, and if I were doing it by myself, I'm sure interest would wane - but I'm not, there's all these other people I've met through it.
it's not the web." Ok, fair enough; but what about alternatives that aren't the web? For example, USENET?
Usenet is interesting for some, personally I had never used usenet back when it was popular. People incorporate it into their BBS, using NNTP to read messages, and even bridging USENET groups.
On 11/28/18, KrUpTiOn said the following...
Nice! I started reading it...
Thanks! I hope you enjoy it.
Would it be ok to add a link on my BBS website to your article?
On 11/29/18, apam said the following...
This is interesting: to what end would one run a BBS, then?
like to know what the motivation is. Some of it sounds like,
For fun. Why do people play with model trains? You could say nost
what sparked the interest in the first place, and if I were doing myself, I'm sure interest would wane - but I'm not, there's all t other people I've met through it.
Sure, I get the hobby aspect of it. And what's the point of
a hobby if it's not fun. Or, at least mostly fun. Perhaps my
question is a bit more meta: what makes it fun? If I understand you
right, for you that's the people you've met, right?
it's not the web." Ok, fair enough; but what about alternati aren't the web? For example, USENET?
Usenet is interesting for some, personally I had never used usene
when it was popular. People incorporate it into their BBS, using
read messages, and even bridging USENET groups.
USENET was just an example. More generally, the intent behind
the question is to discover what's unique about the BBS experience
that makes it interesting.
I must confess, when I started using the Internet and reading
USENET in earnest, I left BBSes behind because I didn't find
the content sufficiently interesting or engaging. But my
interests were nearly purely technical. BBSes were more locally
focused, which meant you were limited in who you were exposed to.
Networks like Fidonet helped a little, but were unappealing for,
well, the same reason Fidonet is unappealing now.
On 11-28-18 14:10, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Thanks; that's an interesting perspective. It only seems to
consider BBSes and the web, however: what about other systems?
Consider USENET, Notesfiles; that sort of thing. What thoughts
do you have on those systems?
I don't see why not. If the content is purely static, then something
like Hugo or Jekyll would work just fine. The content itself is just
a text file.
publish as .txt files and add a file_id.diz to a .zip and they could hatched to FSX_TEXT file base if you wanted? Just a thought.
Well, they're already text files (that's all a markdown file really
is: the markup itself is very light weight; e.g., _this_ becomes italicized because of the underscore characters). The idea was to
take de facto USENET conventions and generate e.g. HTML from them: https://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax
But I kind of feel like the web site might be a better way to
distribute them. One of my goals is to experiment with closer
integration with the underlying operating system and network.
Things that made sense for DOS, dial-up, and Fidonet-style store-and-forward networks are potential areas for revisiting.
Speaking of which....Another couple of posts went up. These
discussing prototypes and what I think is important for my li'l
BBS development effort and what's not. Note that these are my
opinions about what I want to concentrate on; not value
statements about anything anyone else may or may not be doing.
Would it be ok to add a link on my BBS website to your article?
Sure! It's the world wide web; go for it. :-)
I tend to agree. I have been looking at the Hugo site today and should also visit Jekyll. Perhaps when I get back from my forthcoming trip I
will try one or both and see if I can create something more useful for fsxnet.nz :) I'll also learn some new things for me along the way. A
good thing!
That being the case, and given you're also creating essentially nice readable plain text. I think the posts would be good to 1) add to a zip file for distribution across the network in a text files base, and 2)
just posting them as an echomail to fsx_gen for folks to read here as well. By all means web but if you're here and trying to experiment with things that made sense for dos, dial-up and ftn-style networks then posting your content to echomail and file bases is a good fit imho :)
I hope this doesn't come across sounding elitist, but an
explicit goal is to NOT do things that made sense for DOS,
dial-up, and FTN-style networks; rather, the point is
to do things deliberately differently. In particular,
what made sense for those systems was dictated by the
systems' limitations, and I don't see a reason to continue
to bind myself by those limitations as they don't exist in
modern systems.
I used to enjoy Usenet, not sure what the S/N is like these days.
However, I prefer working offline for Usenet too, because network and server lag really slows down reading, though not as badly as web based systems. Also been a fan of email lists for many years.
Notesfiles, no idea what that is.
Facebook, although web based is often
not quite as objectionable as web forums. I suspect their content distribution network helps, as does some careful use of the right click, though its dynamically changing notifications are sometimes a pain.
That's definitely a big part of it. It's also the reason I got into MMORPGs, though the communities there for the most part have taken a turn for the worse.
I also always wanted to write a BBS software but lacked the skills (or at least the confidence) to try it back then. I don't know why it's fun, it just is.
for fun. Both were enjoyable for a little while, but you can't interact with your visitors to a website in the way you can with a BBS. As for the
- if I could run a bbs on it it would probably still be fun (but there were bugs in my ethernet driver I couldn't track down, and multitasking was slooow.) I probably bit off a little more than I could chew there.
The internet is great for technical articles, learning how to do things, particularly with computers, is much easier these days with the internet, but the social aspect of the internet is for the most part rubbish. A local BBS you might be restricted to those in the area, but the chances are if they wrote rubbish about you you could go punch them in the face
so to speak. Now no one is accountable and can write whatever they want without consequence.
Though the same is true for BBSing now being connected to the internet, people can log in from all over the place and put junk in the questions, but for the most part, people here seem to be decent, and the trolls for the most part haven't found us.
I don't know... Why is BBSing fun? Why does chocolate taste nice?
tenser, I agree. You raise some interesting and valid points here. Something which I touched on while deciding on what to do with my new
BBS this week.
For the best experience you have to use an ANSI based client like
SyncTERM or similar. That's half the barrier for new users and then they struggle to understand how to download files and read messages.
Got me thinking, thank you.
On 11-30-18 12:13, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-
@MSGID: <5C0170E6.2490.fsx-fsx_bbs@freeway.apana.org.au>
On 11/29/18, Vk3jed said the following...
I used to enjoy Usenet, not sure what the S/N is like these days.
It's gotten much better in the last couple of years. It went
though a very bad time, but the spammers seem to have taken off
for greener pastures.
One of the things I lament about USENET was that it used to be
*the* place to go for high-quality technical content. You could
interact with people on programming language standards committees,
for example, or report bugs to your compiler writers, or get
advice on how to fix something from the person who wrote the
system, or troubleshoot a device with the person who wrote the
driver, or plug into a research community, or whatever.
Now all of those things (to the extent that they exist at all)
are distributed through a number of disparate channels. It's
not centralized at all. You have to go to 20 different places
to keep up, and it's too hard.
However, I prefer working offline for Usenet too, because network and server lag really slows down reading, though not as badly as web based systems. Also been a fan of email lists for many years.
Hmm; are you on the end of a particularly slow connection?
Notesfiles, no idea what that is.
Basically, PLATO notes for Unix. It was done by Rob Kolstad
and Ray Essick and distributed with 4BSD for the VAX. From
there, it got pulled back into 2BSD for the PDP-11. It was
kind of neat; a relatively recent replacement is something
called `newts`. I got that running on the Fat Dragon to play
around with it.
Facebook, although web based is often
not quite as objectionable as web forums. I suspect their content distribution network helps, as does some careful use of the right click, though its dynamically changing notifications are sometimes a pain.
Interesting. Is that purely a performance thing, or content as well?
Hmm; are you on the end of a particularly slow connection?
No, I'm particularly sensitive to various delays. Network delays these days are dominated by latency, especially if the server is on the other side of the planet (200 x how many transactions required to complete the task). Server lag is also an issue.
Notesfiles, no idea what that is.
Basically, PLATO notes for Unix. It was done by Rob Kolstad
and Ray Essick and distributed with 4BSD for the VAX. From
there, it got pulled back into 2BSD for the PDP-11. It was
kind of neat; a relatively recent replacement is something
called `newts`. I got that running on the Fat Dragon to play
around with it.
Still not familiar with it.
On 12-03-18 20:37, tenser wrote to Vk3jed <=-
Sure, there was non-deterministic latency from having to seek
a floppy disk, some code was multi-threaded, and some folks ran "multi-tasking shells" like DESQview or whatever, but to a first
order approximation, traditional BBSes were basically soft
real-time programs.
Fast forward to today, when we have far more powerful computers,
but they're invariably running multiprocessing software and more
than one program at a time. Even in the case of multicore
machines with true parallelism, there are often more processes
runnable than we have cores to run them, which means that programs
have to sit around and wait every now and then, even if they have something useful they could do; this means increased latency.
It's interesting to go back and read some of the Zmodem design
documents by Forsberg where he specifically describes one of the
design criteria for his protocol being acceptable performance on timeshared machines. This would tend to support the thesis that
u-comps were quasi-realtime, while "real" machines suffered from
greater latency, despite being more powerful computers.
That's fine. Here's a reference manual:
https://www.krsaborio.net/internet/research/acrobat/851020.pdf
I put up a new blog post on terminals, ANSI, CP437, Unicode/UTF-8
and BBSes:
http://fat-dragon.org/post/terminals/
Lots of use of the "we
Yeah, arguably more than useful. Do you think I should edit it
to use the first-person more? The "we" thing sort of my default
for semi-formal writing, but I would be happy to change it if
it makes things clearer.
I dunno, it reads like a bit of an opinionated manifesto, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
On 12/20/18, Digital Man said the following...
Lots of use of the "we
Yeah, arguably more than useful. Do you think I should edit it
to use the first-person more? The "we" thing sort of my default
for semi-formal writing, but I would be happy to change it if
it makes things clearer.
I actually didn't intend to send that, just fat-fingered the wrong key. Anyway, I assumed it was the "royal we" and you were really talking
about what *you* were/should/wanted to do. It's cool, just clarifying.
I've enjoyed reading your essays and the referenced material. The one about the monkeys and the rope/firehose is a good one.
I've written a new DRAFT article about the Unix TTY abstraction and programming it in SML over on the Fat Dragon:
Please let me know what you think. I'm not done editing/proofing
and some parts surely deserve clarification, but I'd love any
Please let me know what you think. I'm not done editing/proofing
I've written a new DRAFT article about the Unix TTY abstraction and programming it in SML over on the Fat Dragon:
Opened it in a browser window and took a cursory glance, and it looks pretty well informed. Thanks for the writeup. I'll read it in full.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 296 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 31:30:46 |
| Calls: | 6,648 |
| Calls today: | 3 |
| Files: | 12,193 |
| Messages: | 5,328,501 |