• In the future..

    From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to All on Sun May 31 11:39:00 2020
    Hello! Welcome to..


    ÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛÛ ÛÜÄÜÜÄÛÜÄÛÛÄÜÛÄÜÄÜÄÛÜÄÛÛÄÜÛÜÄÜÜßÛÜÄÜÜÄÛ°Û°ÛÛÜÄÜÜÄÛÜÄÜÛÜÄÜÜßÛÄÜÜÄÛ ÛÛÄÜÛÛÛÛÄÛÛÄÛÛÛÛÄÛÛÛÛÄÛÛÄÛÛÛÄÜÄÜÛÛÄÜÛßÛÜÜ°ÛÛÛÄÜÛÛÛÛÄÛÛÛÄÛÛÄÛÄÛÛÄÛ ßÜÜÜßßßßÜÜÜÜßßßÜÜÜßßßÜÜÜÜßßÜÜßÜÜßÜÜÜÜÜßßÜÜÜßÜÜÜßßßÜÜÜßÜÜÜÜßßÜÜÜÜß

    Is there a future for the techonology in FTN?

    What does the future for FTN look like?

    What does FTN really need to improve and advance?

    Is FTN "stuck" in supporting the lowest common denominator?

    Can some aspects established in the 80's be depricated and abandoned by
    now?

    Can FTN be transformed by taking advantage of things like CockroachDB?

    Post YOUR questions, thoughts and ideas.


    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    Additional commentary from the FUTURE4FIDO Roving Reporter: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


    There is chatter in FSX_NET about using technologies like CockroachDB and torrents for distributing files and messages. That reminds me when some systems offered to distribute Fidonet echomail via scheduled satellite downlinks *before* the internet transport mechanism really took off.

    The internet has effectively depricated the need for dialup which FTN was originally based upon. The nodelist still has a placeholder for a
    phonenumber that is only configured for a handful of systems. When is it time to abandon that field for something else?

    Can FTN embrace newer technologies for exchanging mail?

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    ../|ug


    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Black Panther@1:317/3 to August Abolins on Sun May 31 11:12:00 2020
    On 31 May 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    Is there a future for the techonology in FTN?

    That will depend on us. Do we have any developers left in this hobby? Are
    they willing to advance the technology?

    What does the future for FTN look like?

    Right now, it's uncertain. It is archaic technology by today's standards.

    What does FTN really need to improve and advance?

    Again, people who are willing to develop future advances, and people willing
    to accept these changes.

    Is FTN "stuck" in supporting the lowest common denominator?

    Yes! How many times have we heard from developers, "We can't change that because we need it maintain legacy support". How can an hobby have any chance of survival when we are limiting ourselves by 1980s technology.

    Can some aspects established in the 80's be depricated and abandoned by now?

    Yes! they should have depreciated 25 years ago.

    Can FTN be transformed by taking advantage of things like CockroachDB?

    I'm not up to speed on CockroachDB, but if someone is willing to work on advancing this hobby, I'm am in 100% support.

    Post YOUR questions, thoughts and ideas.

    Be careful what you ask for. :)


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From Deon George@3:633/509 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 1 12:26:19 2020
    Re: In the future..
    By: August Abolins to All on Sun May 31 2020 11:39 am

    The internet has effectively depricated the need for dialup which FTN was originally based upon. The nodelist still has a placeholder for a phonenumber that is only configured for a handful of systems. When is it time to abandon that field for something else?

    Well, what happens when something else is in that field? I suspect nothing, because it can either be numerical (a phone number), an IP address (I've seen some implementations like this - prefixed with 000- IIRC), or text "-Unpublished-" as is used in some cases.

    So while the major method of automated connectivity between systems (with a mailer) has changed from phone to IP, a logical replacement for that field would be the nodes hostname (retiring the need for INA:). (Saving 4 chars plus the length of whatever was in that field preivously.)

    If a hostname was used, a phone number, an IP address or "Unpublished" could still be used, where systems wanted that to be their preferred method of automated connectivity from other systems. However, I guess, any nodelist compilers that were specifically looking for the text "-Unpublished-" or numbers may have a problem that is unfixable.

    ...ëîåï

    ... If people don't want to come to the ball park, nobody's going to stop them --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Deon George on Mon Jun 1 08:38:56 2020
    On 01 Jun 20 12:26:19, Deon George said the following to August Abolins:

    Well, what happens when something else is in that field? I suspect
    nothing,
    because it can either be numerical (a phone number), an IP address (I've
    se
    some implementations like this - prefixed with 000- IIRC), or text "-Unpublished-" as is used in some cases.

    The phone number field is a "critical" field.

    Nodelist compilers don't just read that field for the phone number, they often build a cost table around it. When something other than Unpublished is in that field, the assumption by at least three different compilers is that it must be numerical, and then prefix-checking is done against it. This is why you cannot have domain names in the phone number field as an example.

    The use of 000- was a horrible ugly idea; a stopgap measure. From my understanding it was determined that a net-wide survey was done and many
    Sysops discovered that Unpublished could be used without the Pvt flag. That effectively resolved the issue of using 000- IP addresses in the phone
    number field. That eventually vanished in favour of the INA/IBN flags.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 1 14:58:06 2020
    Hello Nick!

    01 Jun 20 08:38, you wrote to Deon George:

    The use of 000- was a horrible ugly idea; a stopgap measure. From my understanding it was determined that a net-wide survey was done and many Sysops discovered that Unpublished could be used without the Pvt flag.

    Actually an internal test, that limited the use of -Unpublished- to lines tagged, with "Pvt", was removed.

    That effectively resolved the issue of using 000- IP addresses in the phone number field. That eventually vanished in favour of the INA/IBN flags.

    Unfortunately, after 5 years, some administrators are still reluctant to use -Unpublished-, when no phonenumber is know.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Jun 2 19:13:00 2020
    On 06-01-20 14:58, Kees van Eeten wrote to Nick Andre <=-

    Unfortunately, after 5 years, some administrators are still reluctant
    to use -Unpublished-, when no phonenumber is know.

    Every nodelist entry I've added on my Othernets has -Unpublished- in the phone number, because all nodes are IP connected.


    ... Mental compatability not covered by warranty.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From August Abolins@1:0/0 to Black Panther on Sat Jun 6 19:03:11 2020
    Sveiks Black!

    31 May 20 11:12, you wrote to me:

    Is there a future for the techonology in FTN?

    That will depend on us. Do we have any developers left in this hobby?
    Are they willing to advance the technology?

    Not fair. You can't answer a question with another question!


    Be careful what you ask for. :)

    I see that! LOL


    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net)
  • From Black Panther@1:317/3 to August Abolins on Sat Jun 6 11:36:34 2020
    On 06 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    Is there a future for the techonology in FTN?

    That will depend on us. Do we have any developers left in this
    hobby?
    Are they willing to advance the technology?

    Not fair. You can't answer a question with another question!

    Actually, I answered it with 2 questions. ;)

    My personal opinion, is the technology will die in the near future. As we, as Sysops, are shutting down our systems for whatever reasons. There are too few developers interested in trying to support legacy technologies. For those of you that are, I applaud you!

    The younger generations are more interested in the "point-and-click" world of Twitter, Facebook, or whatever other social medias are being used now. They want to see pictures, links to websites, and other 'visual' aspects. I don't see many, if any, even interested in a basically text environment as this.

    The technology could be made into a more 'visual' environment, but it would then not be compatible with the legacy software. That is what is holding this hobby back. At some point, we need to decide if we just want the hobby and
    FTN technology to move forward and stop with the "We need to maintain legacy support", or we let the technology wither away and become a footnote in history.


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Black Panther on Sat Jun 6 20:44:03 2020
    Dan,

    My personal opinion, is the technology will die in the near future.

    Do you have relatives in the Netherlands ?

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - May 18 2020
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Richter@1:317/3 to Ward Dossche on Sat Jun 6 13:19:18 2020
    On 06 Jun 2020, Ward Dossche said the following...

    My personal opinion, is the technology will die in the near future.

    Do you have relatives in the Netherlands ?

    I sure hope not... :)


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Black Panther on Sat Jun 6 17:52:51 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Black Panther to August Abolins on Sat Jun 06 2020 11:36:34


    The technology could be made into a more 'visual' environment, but
    it would then not be compatible with the legacy software.

    sure it could... the twitch.tv and discord chat stuff is shoehorned over IRC... i know some who participate via their IRC clients without seeing any of the graphical content rendered... how they do it, i don't know but i know it is done... in the same fashion, the same could be done with FTN stuff... hell, look at email and news... they still use the original formats and carry a lot of graphical stuff... there's a lot of folks out there who would be quite surprised to find that email is still the same as it ever was... only a lot of it is encapsulated in MIME these days... the same could be done with FTN stuff if someone really wanted to do so...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Black Panther on Sun Jun 7 02:23:47 2020
    On 06 Jun 20 11:36:34, Black Panther said the following to August Abolins:

    The younger generations are more interested in the "point-and-click" world Twitter, Facebook, or whatever other social medias are being used now.
    They
    want to see pictures, links to websites, and other 'visual' aspects. I
    don'
    see many, if any, even interested in a basically text environment as this.

    I keep reading from those who ponder about Fido's future, about what the next mailer will look like, the next message format, the next whatever. What I
    never read, is what the next *user* will look like. Pretty certain the next user will not be techie like us.

    The younger generation that uses messaging and social apps do not care about Linux, multi-protocol database structures or Wan transport topologies when using the apps. So, why expect the same for a new Fido user? Why must new software be the traditional mailer, tosser, nodelist, editor, etc. Why not
    just focus on messages?

    What would be really good is a mobile/tablet app that is so dumbed-down that it just focuses on messaging. Let the newcomer get their feet wet with that, and if they actually are techie or want a taste of nostalgia they can go
    ahead and experiment with mailers and BBS software.

    That app would likely be just an extension of someone's BBS or Node, but could be promoted in a few ways to really give an alternative to Internet discussion forums. Aftershock is a nice app with potential but certainly not dumb enough.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Richter on Sun Jun 7 11:34:01 2020
    My personal opinion, is the technology will die in the near
    future.

    Do you have relatives in the Netherlands ?

    I sure hope not... :)

    I was just wondering because it's an aspect about Fidonet that everybody knows (or should know). "Having Dutch relatives" means presenting stuff in such a way that it seems one just made it up immediately after having invented the water, fire and wheel ... at the same time ... of course.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - May 18 2020
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Dan Richter@1:317/3 to mark lewis on Sun Jun 7 10:37:44 2020
    On 06 Jun 2020, mark lewis said the following...

    sure it could... the twitch.tv and discord chat stuff is shoehorned over IRC... i know some who participate via their IRC clients without seeing any of the grap hical content rendered... how they do it, i don't know
    but i know it is done... in the same fashion, the same could be done
    with FTN stuff... hell, look at emai l and news... they still use the original formats and carry a lot of graphical s tuff... there's a lot of folks out there who would be quite surprised to find th at email is
    still the same as it ever was... only a lot of it is encapsulated in
    MIME these days... the same could be done with FTN stuff if someone
    really want ed to do so...

    I know the technology can be upgraded in many ways. The problem that I see,
    is finding someone who would want to do it, and not worry about legacy
    software compatibility. As long as hold on to the legacy support, the technology will die out.

    To the best of my knowledge there are a few people out there working on different ways of implementing FTN technology, but they keep running into resistance from the "legacy support" individuals.


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From Dan Richter@1:317/3 to Nick Andre on Sun Jun 7 10:48:04 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, Nick Andre said the following...

    I keep reading from those who ponder about Fido's future, about what the next mailer will look like, the next message format, the next whatever. What I never read, is what the next *user* will look like. Pretty
    certain the next user will not be techie like us.

    Oh, yes, I remember users... ;)

    You're right. For us, there is a passion involved with getting everything set up to work properly, and change things to make them different from others. Someone just looking at the technology we are using, won't have that same passion. Is there a way to attract new users into this hobby?

    The younger generation that uses messaging and social apps do not care about Linux, multi-protocol database structures or Wan transport topologies when using the apps. So, why expect the same for a new Fido user? Why must new software be the traditional mailer, tosser, nodelist, editor, etc. Why not just focus on messages?

    In my opinion, it's not just the messages, but there would also need to be a graphical interface for them as well. Let's face it, in their lives, all they have known is the point-and-click, and tapping. Most of them would be lost at
    a command prompt.

    What would be really good is a mobile/tablet app that is so dumbed-down that it just focuses on messaging. Let the newcomer get their feet wet with that, and if they actually are techie or want a taste of nostalgia they can go ahead and experiment with mailers and BBS software.

    Very good point. At this point, there really isn't even a good way to access the technology via a mobile device. Granted, I haven't looked at all of them, but from what I've seen, they are clumsy to work with.


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From Dan Richter@1:317/3 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 7 10:51:32 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, Ward Dossche said the following...

    I was just wondering because it's an aspect about Fidonet that everybody knows ( or should know). "Having Dutch relatives" means presenting stuff in such a way t hat it seems one just made it up immediately after
    having invented the water, fi re and wheel ... at the same time ... of course.

    Ah, got it. That wasn't quite where I thought you were going with that question, but close. :)

    I was just trying to state that things like supporting legacy software should be stopped, and work on advancing the technology so the hobby hopefully
    doesn't die a slow, horrible death...


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Nick Andre on Sun Jun 7 14:18:00 2020
    Hello Nick!

    ** On Sunday 07.06.20 - 02:23, Nick Andre wrote to Black Panther:

    What would be really good is a mobile/tablet app that is so dumbed-
    down that it just focuses on messaging. Let the newcomer get their
    feet wet with that, and if they actually are techie or want a taste
    of nostalgia they can go ahead and experiment with mailers and BBS software.

    What would such a thing actually look like to the user?

    Would participation be feasible without an actual keyboard?

    Tommi's sample screenshot of Hotdoged on his Samsung A50 looked insanely small to work with.

    Maybe something like a stipped-down interface like m.facebook.com.. but adapted with menu commands for navigating echos, threads, searching
    ..could work.

    Instead of:

    Home Profile Messages Notifications(2) Chat(6) Friends(11) Pages(14) Groups(3)

    we have..

    Home | Profile | Echos | Msgs | Chat | Favorites | BBSes | Othernets

    The decluttered look of m.facebook.com is not a bad model.

    Could FTN grow-up and allow sending attachments, pgp encoded messages,
    etc? What would the newcomer WANT? Could FTN adapt to that?

    MAYBE, FTN could comprise of a growing subset of BBSes that allow the
    above to support their newcomers.


    That app would likely be just an extension of someone's BBS or Node,
    but could be promoted in a few ways to really give an alternative to Internet discussion forums. Aftershock is a nice app with potential
    but certainly not dumb enough.

    Yes.. an app that can be configured with a minimum amount of fuss and
    takes care of all the connection details behind the scenes.

    I imagine an app that looks something like this:

    http://webring.fsxnet.nz/all.php (something that fidonet.org could
    offer too?)

    Users can search/scroll for a specific BBS or tap on the one they
    recognize visually, and the app takes it from there with a stripped-down interface similar to m.facebook.com.

    The subset of participating BBSes can announce what they support: gpg encrypted messages, attachments, voice msgs, interbbs-chat, games, etc.



    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to Dan Richter on Sun Jun 7 15:29:52 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, Dan Richter said the following...

    Oh, yes, I remember users... ;)

    The only users I seem to have attracted at the moment are ZC's verifying
    I have a working system other sysops checking out newbie.

    You're right. For us, there is a passion involved with getting
    everything set up to work properly, and change things to make them different from others. Someone just looking at the technology we are using, won't have that same passion. Is there a way to attract new users into this hobby?

    Back when I ran a BBS in high school I used to hand out 3.5" floppys with a HyperTerm file configured to connect to my board. I've been considering putting up an ad on Kijiji or something to try and attract the "normals" to
    my board.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Jay Harris on Sun Jun 7 16:37:00 2020
    Hello Jay!

    ** On Sunday 07.06.20 - 15:29, Jay Harris wrote to Dan Richter:

    Back when I ran a BBS in high school I used to hand out 3.5" floppys
    with a HyperTerm file configured to connect to my board.

    I did that too. I preconfigured a FrontDoor system to dial up and connect
    as a point to my system, and handed out diskettes (or made a home visit)
    to do it. My latter system was only FTN echomail + email by then.

    A similar "pre-packaged" approach is lacking today. Today, the user may
    be steered to telnetbbsguide or ipingthereforeiam to look up a BBS, but
    they still need the SynchTerm or Netrunner (or similar) to connect at the
    BBS level. They still need to "understand" where the FQDN goes and if a special port number is required. The fTelnet webby window is not bad for
    a quick visit, but it's a poor experience for regular and full-time use.

    The whole process is probably too complicated for the youngin users.

    Something that would be presentable on a tablet/smartphone would be good
    too.


    I've been considering putting up an ad on Kijiji or something to try
    and attract the "normals" to my board.

    If you feel that's where your target audience hangs out, why not. Let us know how that goes!

    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to August Abolins on Sun Jun 7 18:06:37 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    My latter system was only FTN echomail + email by then.

    My Telegard system had internet email back in the day. I offered each user
    a free email address of <username>@nrbbs.net. I'm toying with the idea of setting that up again, though I can't for the life of me remember just how I had that set up.

    A similar "pre-packaged" approach is lacking today.

    Exactly! As much as I would like to get some USB sticks with Syncterm installed & pre-configured to connect to Northern Realms, I don't think that would work in 2020. If someone handed me a free USB stick I would automatically assume it had malware on it.

    Something that would be presentable on a tablet/smartphone would be good too.

    I would love a high quality app on my iPhone that gets all of my FTN messages.

    If you feel that's where your target audience hangs out, why not. Let
    us know how that goes!

    https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1505182106

    *fingers crossed*


    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Jay Harris on Sun Jun 7 19:31:00 2020
    Hello Jay!

    ** On Sunday 07.06.20 - 18:06, Jay Harris wrote to August Abolins:

    On 07 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    A similar "pre-packaged" approach is lacking today.

    Exactly! As much as I would like to get some USB sticks with Syncterm installed & pre-configured to connect to Northern Realms, I don't think that would work in 2020. If someone handed me a free USB stick I would automatically assume it had malware on it.

    USB method would look suspicious. :( It's just as easy to point someone
    to a website to dowload what they need, even a customized set of files.


    I would love a high quality app on my iPhone that gets all of my FTN messages.

    I used NewsTapLite for a little while on my iPod. It was fine for
    reading, but the reply/writing experience was terrible. I don't think it even worked offline - which was a negative.

    If a bbs had an adaptive web interface, then a specific app wouldn't be needed. But the the SDK offerings from Apple look interesting.


    https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1505182106

    *fingers crossed*

    VERY Good. The extra screen shots are good eye-candy. But, you need to
    add a little ABOUT the bbs and what it is to the uneducated masses.

    I never thought of kijiji as a place for that kind of thing. But, I guess some people "live" there and look for all kinds of things to discover.

    Kijiji to the aide of BBSing.. who woulda thunk.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to August Abolins on Sun Jun 7 20:50:28 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1505182106

    VERY Good. The extra screen shots are good eye-candy. But, you need to add a little ABOUT the bbs and what it is to the uneducated masses.

    I never thought of kijiji as a place for that kind of thing. But, I
    guess some people "live" there and look for all kinds of things to discover.

    Kijiji to the aide of BBSing.. who woulda thunk.

    Huh! Just got one new local user. In "How did you hear about us?" they put Kijiji. It looks from their hostname they used fTelnet on the website. Now we'll have to see if they ever come back...

    Yeah, I do need to come up with some more information about WHAT a BBS is & edit the ad a bit. The trick will be making it informative without becoming
    a wall of text.

    Now that I know this can get the word out I'll be more motivated to do that, and to add some links to SyncTerm & Netrunner on my website.
    (And figure out how to customize it for my board).

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jay Harris on Sun Jun 7 20:50:08 2020
    Re: Re: attract the "normals" of the future
    By: Jay Harris to August Abolins on Sun Jun 07 2020 18:06:37


    My Telegard system had internet email back in the day. I offered
    each user a free email address of <username>@nrbbs.net. I'm
    toying with the idea of setting that up again, though I can't for
    the life of me remember just how I had that set up.

    systems like sbbs (aka synchronet bbs) have this built in by default... you only need to configure your domain and the mail server... done deal... users can log in and handle private QWK mail, FTN netmail, or email live on the BBS in a text environment or they can POP3 or IMAP the messages off the system... depending on one's setup, one can even offer the same via an html interface ;)

    i'm not saying it is easy but it is a lot easier than it used to be when shoestring and bubble gum were the glue -=B-)

    BTW: sbbs comes with WWIV and RENEGADE menus... plus it is very easy to create others based on the operator's desires for their system's user interface...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to mark lewis on Sun Jun 7 21:49:50 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, mark lewis said the following...

    i'm not saying it is easy but it is a lot easier than it used to be when shoestring and bubble gum were the glue -=B-)

    As I recall, that was kind of exactly what was used.

    I had to direct all incoming email into one pop3 box, use a utility to poll that one pop3 box and then somehow distribute that to each user. I'll see if
    I can figure this out again.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Black Panther on Sun Jun 7 22:37:00 2020
    Hello Black!

    ** On Saturday 06.06.20 - 11:36, Black Panther wrote to August Abolins:

    Is there a future for the techonology in FTN?

    That will depend on us. Do we have any developers left in this
    hobby? Are they willing to advance the technology?

    Not fair. You can't answer a question with another question!

    Actually, I answered it with 2 questions. ;)

    That's even worse! LOL


    My personal opinion, is the technology will die in the near future.

    It seems to be hanging on a thin thread of various elements that require a lot of human intervention: the nodelist, its distribution, echomail maintenance, adherance to the lowest-denominator specs.. It also
    requires quite a bit of cooperation that may already be strained and may
    not get easier.


    As we, as Sysops, are shutting down our systems for whatever reasons.

    I haven't been monitoring the growth or decline of systems, but ipingthereforiam purports to report over 1800 telnettable systems.

    The arrival of the tv didn't make radio go away.
    The arrival of the iphone didn't make watches go away.
    The arrival of ereaders didn't make books go away.
    The arrival of the internet didn't make BBSes go away.

    People just adapted to using all those things above a bit differently.

    Maybe the underlying technology for FTN can adapt to the newer ways people can experience BBSes and echomail.


    There are too few developers interested in trying to support legacy technologies. For those of you that are, I applaud you!

    The legacy part is not unlike the challenge of restoring an old beat up
    car and making it showroom worthy. But for those of us not investing the time for that restoration and ownership, they are just a novelty, a photo-
    op, and then off we go home.

    Maybe the technical parts that most people can agree on that are holding
    the hobby at bay can be indentified and nudged to obsolescence.


    The younger generations are more interested in the "point-and-click"
    world of Twitter, Facebook, or whatever other social medias are being
    used now. They want to see pictures, links to websites, and other
    'visual' aspects.

    Who says that it has to be purely text based? The front-end can have
    icons that represent different BBSes or different echos. Maybe even the icons can be user-selected for their liking.

    Browsing through messages can be point-and-click. Many FTN interfaces
    already support clickable links to external sites. But replies would
    still require the traditional text input.


    I don't see many, if any, even interested in a basically text
    environment as this.

    Surely you don't mean that FTN systems should have a tworking echo that supports video clips? LOL


    The technology could be made into a more 'visual' environment, but it would then not be compatible with the legacy software. That is what is holding this hobby back.

    The underpinning tech, the part the moves the messages around from system
    to system is not really a problem. The structure of messages and all of
    its FTSC documented components is not necessarily the problem either. But
    as you pointed out, traditional FTN presentation lacks the visual punch
    that people are accustomed to on their tablets and smartphones.


    At some point, we need to decide if we just want the hobby and FTN technology to move forward and stop with the "We need to maintain
    legacy support", or we let the technology wither away and become a footnote in history.

    Other than some really old references like 300 baud in the nodelist, what legacy elements would you be referring to?


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Dan Richter@1:317/3 to August Abolins on Sun Jun 7 21:57:28 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    Not fair. You can't answer a question with another question!

    Actually, I answered it with 2 questions. ;)

    That's even worse! LOL

    Why do you say that? (sorry, had to be done...) :)

    As we, as Sysops, are shutting down our systems for whatever
    reasons.

    I haven't been monitoring the growth or decline of systems, but ipingthereforiam purports to report over 1800 telnettable systems.

    I haven't been keeping track of the numbers either. It just seems like there are a lot of systems that will appear and be active for awhile, then they disappear. At least it seems that way in some of the othernets.

    Surely you don't mean that FTN systems should have a tworking echo that supports video clips? LOL

    I hope not... ;)

    The underpinning tech, the part the moves the messages around from
    system to system is not really a problem. The structure of messages and all of its FTSC documented components is not necessarily the problem either. But as you pointed out, traditional FTN presentation lacks the visual punch that people are accustomed to on their tablets and smartphones.

    For the most part, yes, some type of truly user friendly 'app' that someone could download and interact with FTN message echos would be a good start. I believe the structure of FTN technology is a very viable use for transporting messages, with some updates...

    I won't get into the FTSC documents yet.

    Other than some really old references like 300 baud in the nodelist,
    what legacy elements would you be referring to?

    Try hatching out a file that has a long filename. See how many Sysops start screaming about how it messed up their file database.

    How many 'users' when connecting to a BBS, are actually using 80x24 screen size? I know there are some BBS programs, Synchronet comes to mind, that is scalable, but as far as I know that is the only one.

    We are still limited to creating screens/menus in ANSI or ascii. ANSI is limited to 16 colors, although our monitors can now handle over 16 million colors.

    Very few door games or other utilities compiled for 64 or even 32 bit
    systems. Abandonware from the 80s and 90s is being used.

    Should I continue?


    ---

    Black Panther(RCS)
    Castle Rock BBS

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com - (1:317/3)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 8 12:35:00 2020
    On 06-06-20 17:52, mark lewis wrote to Black Panther <=-

    sure it could... the twitch.tv and discord chat stuff is shoehorned
    over IRC... i know some who participate via their IRC clients without seeing any of the graphical content rendered... how they do it, i don't know but i know it is done... in the same fashion, the same could be
    done with FTN stuff... hell, look at email and news... they still use
    the original formats and carry a lot of graphical stuff... there's a
    lot of folks out there who would be quite surprised to find that email
    is still the same as it ever was... only a lot of it is encapsulated in MIME these days... the same could be done with FTN stuff if someone
    really wanted to do so...

    It seems a lot of legacy tech has been retrofitted to support more visual interfaces, and I agree, I don't see why it couldn't be done with FTN. Graphical renderings could be supported straight away over HTTP(S), NNTP and email. "Native FTN" support of these extensions would come when software athors incorporated the ability to render them in their BBS software. Same goes for the rest of the ecosystem. But there would need to be a way to ensure
    that older software would only have to handle text information.

    There's a number of ways this could be done.


    ... A year spent in AI is enough to make one believe in God.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 8 12:44:00 2020
    On 06-07-20 02:23, Nick Andre wrote to Black Panther <=-

    I keep reading from those who ponder about Fido's future, about what
    the next mailer will look like, the next message format, the next whatever. What I never read, is what the next *user* will look like. Pretty certain the next user will not be techie like us.

    Yes, from a user's perspective, I agree. Users these days (of any mainstream service) generally don't have to worry about technical details. When's the last time you had to configure your browser to use Facebook or Twitter? (configuring add ons like ad/tracking blockers doesn't count ;) ).

    The younger generation that uses messaging and social apps do not care about Linux, multi-protocol database structures or Wan transport topologies when using the apps. So, why expect the same for a new Fido user? Why must new software be the traditional mailer, tosser,
    nodelist, editor, etc. Why not just focus on messages?

    Well, the software stack should be invisible to users, except for the user interface, of course. :)

    What would be really good is a mobile/tablet app that is so dumbed-down that it just focuses on messaging. Let the newcomer get their feet wet with that, and if they actually are techie or want a taste of nostalgia they can go ahead and experiment with mailers and BBS software.

    That would be good to have.

    That app would likely be just an extension of someone's BBS or Node,
    but could be promoted in a few ways to really give an alternative to Internet discussion forums. Aftershock is a nice app with potential but certainly not dumb enough.

    Unfortunately, Aftershock has some serious shortcomings under the hood - it's designed as a point, which is the wrong model. Users who have multiple devices
    (e.g. phone, tablet, PC) should be able to switch devices and see the system in
    the same state (other than any messages actially being edited on a device). This is the problem I personally have with both point based systems and NNTP. You wouldn't expect on Facebook or a web forum to be up to date on one device, then have to re-mark messages as read on your other devices!


    ... Do you, Sysop, take this BBS, to be your wedded spouse??
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Richter on Mon Jun 8 12:50:00 2020
    On 06-07-20 10:37, Dan Richter wrote to mark lewis <=-

    To the best of my knowledge there are a few people out there working on different ways of implementing FTN technology, but they keep running
    into resistance from the "legacy support" individuals.

    Simple, have the more modern software able to downgrade to "pure legacy" for links to those old systems. In the new FTNs, legacy systems will probably be unable to fully route all of the extensions, and certainly wouldn't be able to import them. Part of the compromise may be that legacy systems can only be leaf nodes, unless they're feeding other systems that don't care about the more
    modern BBS formats. The new systems should still be able to import and render the text of legacy formats, and maybe even render emoticons/emojis that have text representations, so those users don't have to remember what ;) or 3:-) mean. :D


    ... Direct from the Ministry of Silly Walks
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Richter on Mon Jun 8 12:51:00 2020
    On 06-07-20 10:48, Dan Richter wrote to Nick Andre <=-

    In my opinion, it's not just the messages, but there would also need to
    be a graphical interface for them as well. Let's face it, in their
    lives, all they have known is the point-and-click, and tapping. Most of them would be lost at a command prompt.

    a point and click GUI goes without saying. :)

    Very good point. At this point, there really isn't even a good way to access the technology via a mobile device. Granted, I haven't looked at all of them, but from what I've seen, they are clumsy to work with.

    All of the options I've tried have sucked in some way badly. :/


    ... He knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Dan Richter on Mon Jun 8 12:55:00 2020
    On 06-07-20 10:51, Dan Richter wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

    I was just trying to state that things like supporting legacy software should be stopped, and work on advancing the technology so the hobby hopefully doesn't die a slow, horrible death...

    Actually, given that there is a strong retro component to many sysops, I disagree with your black and white assessment. I'm all for supporting legacy software, BUT that support should be done in a way that doesn't hold FTN back from modernising. Work done on other (Internet) protocols over the years shows
    this is possible, though because some legacy systems do have some really severe
    limitations, I can see a function of new mailers and tossers being the ability to "downgrade" a feed to legacy FTN specs.


    ... CRASH: Normal termination.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 8 13:39:00 2020
    On 06-07-20 14:18, August Abolins wrote to Nick Andre <=-

    What would such a thing actually look like to the user?

    Would participation be feasible without an actual keyboard?

    I'd say so. New generation menus might be more event driven, with the event being either a mouse click on a particular button, text or part of the screen, or a hotkey. It should be possible to navigate anywhere on the BBS using a mouse (or by screen tapping, of course).

    Tommi's sample screenshot of Hotdoged on his Samsung A50 looked
    insanely small to work with.

    Maybe something like a stipped-down interface like m.facebook.com.. but adapted with menu commands for navigating echos, threads, searching ..could work.

    Well, it should only present a keyboard when you actually need it, like for editing/writing messages. But that editor should also adhere to conventions and not tempt the user into top posting as most Internet software does.

    Instead of:

    Home Profile Messages Notifications(2) Chat(6) Friends(11) Pages(14) Groups(3)

    we have..

    Home | Profile | Echos | Msgs | Chat | Favorites | BBSes | Othernets

    The decluttered look of m.facebook.com is not a bad model.

    Particularly for phones.

    Could FTN grow-up and allow sending attachments, pgp encoded messages, etc? What would the newcomer WANT? Could FTN adapt to that?

    MAYBE, FTN could comprise of a growing subset of BBSes that allow the above to support their newcomers.

    I'd certainly be inclined to add those features.


    ... Better to live with one spider than many bugs.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jun 8 12:36:46 2020
    Hello Tony!

    08 Jun 20 13:39, you wrote to August Abolins:

    What would such a thing actually look like to the user?

    Would participation be feasible without an actual keyboard?

    I'd say so. New generation menus might be more event driven, with the event being either a mouse click on a particular button, text or part of the screen, or a hotkey. It should be possible to navigate anywhere on the BBS using a mouse (or by screen tapping, of course).

    The presentation layer is not the realm of Fidonet. There is nothing in Fidonet that addresses the user experience.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 8 08:45:18 2020
    On 07 Jun 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    Who says that it has to be purely text based? The front-end can have icons that represent different BBSes or different echos. Maybe even the icons can be user-selected for their liking.

    Browsing through messages can be point-and-click. Many FTN interfaces already support clickable links to external sites. But replies would still require the traditional text input.

    If we wanted to introduce images into the actual content, we could use Reddit as an example. Before their redesign, Reddit didn't host any of their own images. They just used other hosting platforms such as imgur & giphy and linked to the content.

    If FTN adopted some of Reddit's ideas, like using markdown for linking &
    images along with a half decent mobile and/or web app, that would be a huge step forward to modernizing the technology.

    Depending on the Reddit client you used it would either just show you the
    link, which you could then click on, or some would just show the image inline.

    Legacy systems would still be able to read the messages as markdown doesn't look that bad in text:

    [link](https://www.fidonet.org)
    [funny comic](https://i.imgur.com/LEqPg7z.jpeg)

    Unless of course you had a really long and ugly URL, in which case maybe we could implement a URL shortener of sorts to keep the messages readable.

    I think this method may be a lot better than allowing file attachments in
    echo areas for media for a variety of reasons.

    Reddit's markdown is quite easy to use, and since their re-design they've incorporated it into their "fancy-pants" editor, so the "normals" don't need
    to learn how to use it:

    https://www.reddit.com/wiki/markdown

    The spoilers code is a relatively recent addition.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jun 8 09:51:57 2020
    Re: In the future..
    By: Kees van Eeten to Tony Langdon on Mon Jun 08 2020 12:36:46


    I'd say so. New generation menus might be more event driven, with
    the event being either a mouse click on a particular button, text
    or part of the screen, or a hotkey. It should be possible to
    navigate anywhere on the BBS using a mouse (or by screen tapping,
    of course).

    The presentation layer is not the realm of Fidonet. There is
    nothing in Fidonet that addresses the user experience.

    exactly...

    /me wonders how many will be surprised to find out that there is at least one terminal app that supports mouse clicks and BBSes that react to those clicks on their hotspots...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jay Harris on Mon Jun 8 09:58:40 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Jay Harris to August Abolins on Mon Jun 08 2020 08:45:18


    If FTN adopted some of Reddit's ideas, like using markdown for linking
    & images along with a half decent mobile and/or web app, that would be
    a huge step forward to modernizing the technology.

    FTN is transport... it has nothing to do with the presentation... underneath it all, it is still raw text...

    presentation is done by the BBS when the user is using it directly via a terminal of some kind... the terminal could easily render the output of the BBS in a graphical way... depending on the content of the data sent to the terminal, it could easily gather and render images or sound... there are terminals, or at least one, that recognise mouse clicks on textual hotspots presented by the BBS...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Mon Jun 8 10:44:30 2020
    On 08 Jun 20 09:51:57, Mark Lewis said the following to Kees Van Eeten:

    /me wonders how many will be surprised to find out that there is at least terminal app that supports mouse clicks and BBSes that react to those
    click
    on their hotspots...

    I tried implementing the one, back in the 90's. Only a few of my users ended up using it, but to be fair it was a bit clunky and tacked-on.

    Searchlight and MajorBBS I believe were the only BBS packages that really got it "right".

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Tony Langdon on Mon Jun 8 10:54:30 2020
    On 08 Jun 20 12:44:00, Tony Langdon said the following to Nick Andre:

    Unfortunately, Aftershock has some serious shortcomings under the hood -
    it
    designed as a point, which is the wrong model. Users who have multiple
    dev
    (e.g. phone, tablet, PC) should be able to switch devices and see the
    syste
    the same state (other than any messages actially being edited on a
    device).

    My understanding is that Points were (are) extremely popular in Zone 2. Personally I didn't really understand it - The same software is essentially in play and the same end-goal is accomplished by being an unlisted/unpublished Node who connects to another system.

    You see this now in an echo designed for testing; one person is so adamant that writing messages via a Point is somehow much better than using a BBS to write messages. The result of using either approach is the same... a message.

    Bringing us to my "point" about how if we take away the techie-aspect from newcomers and focus on a decent mobile/tablet app, thats a step in the right direction.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Dan Richter on Mon Jun 8 10:57:40 2020
    On 07 Jun 20 21:57:28, Dan Richter said the following to August Abolins:

    Try hatching out a file that has a long filename. See how many Sysops
    start
    screaming about how it messed up their file database.

    [...] I try not to quote-rant, but with the reasons you mentioned, they seem more like presentation-problems than actual FTN problems?

    I like the Reddit idea mentioned elsewhere here; where its just a link to the media instead of actually embedding, if I understand correctly.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 8 11:30:59 2020
    On 08 Jun 2020, mark lewis said the following...

    FTN is transport... it has nothing to do with the presentation... underneath it all, it is still raw text...

    So then should we move this discussion to another more relevant echo?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 8 11:59:00 2020
    Hello Nick!

    ** On Monday 08.06.20 - 10:44, Nick Andre wrote to Mark Lewis:

    On 08 Jun 20 09:51:57, Mark Lewis said the following to Kees Van Eeten:

    least o terminal app that supports mouse clicks and BBSes that react to
    those click on their hotspots...
    [snip]

    Searchlight and MajorBBS I believe were the only BBS packages that really got it "right".

    I remember visiting a few ShotGun bbses. The client/server approach was really cool. Shotgun-specific VGA games were amazing, especially when you realized that the connection was just a modest dialup.

    At my request, the Shotgun developer added echomail support.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 8 12:07:55 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Nick Andre to Mark Lewis on Mon Jun 08 2020 10:44:30


    /me wonders how many will be surprised to find out that there is at
    least o[ne] terminal app that supports mouse clicks and BBSes that
    react to those click on their hotspots...

    I tried implementing the one, back in the 90's. Only a few of my
    users ended up using it, but to be fair it was a bit clunky and tacked-on.

    not sure which one you're speaking of... RIPscript was one... there was another i forget but was only used with one BBS and a specific terminal program for that BBS, IIRC... there was also a movement to use NAPLPS which i recall was what Prodigy(?) used... but yeah, a lot was tacked on as an afterthought and the biggest problem was they required special terminal programs for them to work... this was a problem because users just wanted to use their existing terminal program like telix or procomm or similar...

    what i speak of above works with any terminal program that recognises CTerm (i think) ANSI mouse sequences... deuce and digital man have been working together to get it into synchronet and syncterm... i've not had a play with any of it yet but it is available on my current system... i need to figure out (again) how to compile the latest syncterm on my system but that's a task for a rainy day for now...

    Searchlight and MajorBBS I believe were the only BBS packages that
    really got it "right".

    i never used or visited any systems running those packages... especially if i had to use a dedicated/specific terminal for them... i was one of those users mentioned above and just didn't get out and about to other BBSes very much if at all...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Jay Harris on Mon Jun 8 12:10:06 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Jay Harris to mark lewis on Mon Jun 08 2020 11:30:59


    FTN is transport... it has nothing to do with the presentation...
    underneath it all, it is still raw text...

    So then should we move this discussion to another more relevant echo?

    probably but i don't know which one(s) would qualify...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:280/464 to Jay Harris on Mon Jun 8 13:44:00 2020
    Hello Jay!

    ** On Monday 08.06.20 - 11:30, Jay Harris wrote to mark lewis:

    FTN is transport... it has nothing to do with the presentation...
    underneath it all, it is still raw text...

    So then should we move this discussion to another more relevant echo?

    Here is a copy of a message (thank you Wilfred van Velzen) from one of the last moderators of this echo:

    ====================
    ===BEGIN CITATION===
    ====================
    From: Klaus Kulbarsch
    To: ALL
    Date: 2005-04-04 03:42:46
    Subject: MOD: The rules

    Area : FUTURE4FIDO
    Description : Discussion of new Fido technologies and developments
    Language : English
    Moderator : Klaus Kulbarsch, 2:2426/1205
    Rulesfile : fut4fido.rul
    Permission : ALL
    Date : 01.05.2001 --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some words on top: Many thanks to Markus Engmann, the first moderator
    and Ulrich Schroeter, one of the most important founders of this echo.
    I will let their rules untouched. They fit our needs I presume.

    Topics:

    - Discussion and development of future-oriented mechanisms to advance
    means of access for new FidoNet participants, and of ideas on further
    development of FTN technology and FidoNet in general.

    - Discussion and problem solving in critical FidoNet areas, for example
    how to keep FidoNet attractive. What can we do as individuals or as a
    group, what ideas exist and what can be implemented?

    This echo is designed to provide a "workplace" for new developments in
    global FTN technology (as in the case of special echos for policy
    development), and to help us generate new ideas to keep Fido attractive
    in the future. Anyone who has a good idea about a subject dealing with
    what should be done to develop FidoNet can discuss it here at leisure.

    The echo is not only open to *Cs, but is particularly intended for
    developers and other interested participants, who can make useful
    contributions to the discussions on the basis of years of FidoNet
    experience.

    The currently valid policy and echo policy apply.

    The participants are requested to address one another in a friendly tone.

    Encoded files are not permitted in the echo.

    Any criticism of the moderation or moderation in general should be taken
    to moderated.ger (in R24). However, this does not mean that discussion of the basic subject of whether moderation is necessary in Fido, and how we can realize new related ideas, is undesirable; to this extent, such
    discussion is on topic.

    Many thanks to Robert Bashe for his translation.


    -+- NetMgr/2 1.0y+
    @ Origin: News-Echos-Tracker-Mail-Gate-Router (2:2426/1205)
    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 8 13:59:53 2020
    Re: In the future..
    By: August Abolins to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 08 2020 11:59:00


    I remember visiting a few ShotGun bbses.

    i think Shotgun BBS was the one i could not remember in my earlier post...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 8 14:50:00 2020
    Hello mark!

    ** On Monday 08.06.20 - 13:59, mark lewis wrote to August Abolins:

    I remember visiting a few ShotGun bbses.

    i think Shotgun BBS was the one i could not remember in my earlier
    post...

    Yes.. that is what your description began to sound like. Launching
    Shotgun required switching operating modes of the monitor. Ever time it
    did that, I panicked a little. :/

    When I visited a Shotgun bbs, it felt like I was looking at the future. (This was shortly before the WWW software arrived.)

    I remember thinking that Compuserve should adopt a shotgun-like (mouse- driven) interface. The text method of navigating on Compuserve was prone
    to errors. And, since every minute counted, it could get frustrating.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 8 16:20:16 2020
    On 08 Jun 20 11:59:00, August Abolins said the following to Nick Andre:

    I remember visiting a few ShotGun bbses. The client/server approach was really cool. Shotgun-specific VGA games were amazing, especially when you realized that the connection was just a modest dialup.

    Ahhhhhhhh, Shotgun! I forgot that one.

    Also forgot about Roboboard/FX... and Excalibur, but that was a piece of crap.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Mon Jun 8 16:22:49 2020
    On 08 Jun 20 12:07:55, Mark Lewis said the following to Nick Andre:

    I tried implementing the one, back in the 90's. Only a few of my
    users ended up using it, but to be fair it was a bit clunky and tacked-on.

    not sure which one you're speaking of... RIPscript was one... there was

    Yes, it was RIP. It was pretty amazing for being vector-based but anything to do with bitmaps or really detailed screens, even just a logo, was a mess. And that RIP terminal had its own set of bugs and problems.

    Searchlight and MajorBBS I believe were the only BBS packages that really got it "right".

    i never used or visited any systems running those packages... especially
    if
    had to use a dedicated/specific terminal for them... i was one of those
    use

    Searchlight and MajorBBS always worked a bit better with a RIP compatible client. But yeah I was never really one to use a dedicated-client. If it had troubles doing even the most basic of Ansi, I didn't bother calling.

    I owe you royalty payments...

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 8 17:39:51 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Nick Andre to August Abolins on Mon Jun 08 2020 16:20:16


    I remember visiting a few ShotGun bbses. The client/server approach was
    really cool. Shotgun-specific VGA games were amazing, especially when you realized that the connection was just a modest dialup.

    Ahhhhhhhh, Shotgun! I forgot that one.

    Also forgot about Roboboard/FX...

    it was Roboboard that i couldn't remember! a friend was running it, RemoteAccess, and one or two others behind a BBS carousel thing... one of those might have been Shotgun... it was so damned long ago LOL

    and Excalibur, but that was a piece of crap.

    don't know if i ever heard of that one...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 8 17:41:17 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: Nick Andre to Mark Lewis on Mon Jun 08 2020 16:22:49


    I owe you royalty payments...

    ROTFL!


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Tue Jun 9 19:05:00 2020
    On 06-08-20 12:36, Kees van Eeten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    The presentation layer is not the realm of Fidonet. There is nothing in Fidonet that addresses the user experience.

    That's a succinct way of putting it, and I agree totally.


    ... "Do you, Sysop, take this BBS, to be your wedded spouse?"
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Nick Andre on Tue Jun 9 19:27:00 2020
    On 06-08-20 10:54, Nick Andre wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    My understanding is that Points were (are) extremely popular in Zone 2. Personally I didn't really understand it - The same software is essentially in play and the same end-goal is accomplished by being an unlisted/unpublished Node who connects to another system.

    I could be wrong, but I'm led to believe that's because local calls were generally timed over there, and a point is the most efficient way, time wise to
    pick up mail. Points worked well in the 80s and 90s, when most people had only
    one main device (generally a PC) for reading mail. Some, like myself, also had
    offline mail built into their points (my setup was capable of running as a full
    blown BBS, if I wanted to), which allowed a secondary device, like a laptop, to
    be used to read mail away from the main point.

    You see this now in an echo designed for testing; one person is so
    adamant that writing messages via a Point is somehow much better than using a BBS to write messages. The result of using either approach is
    the same... a message.

    Yep, a message is a message. I now only use a point address, if I want to do something for which it's not worth spplying for a full node number in the relevant net(s). One example is my secondary BBS, which has a point address in
    Fidonet. All it does on Fidonet is post the occasional automated post to one echo. Not worth getting a Fidonet node number just for that. :)

    Bringing us to my "point" about how if we take away the techie-aspect
    from newcomers and focus on a decent mobile/tablet app, thats a step in the right direction.

    I agree totally.

    If I was to use a mobile app for BBS messaging, I'd want a mobile friendly touch screen interface, with more or less the same features as an offline reader, including the ability to work offline if needed (I do go into places with iffy or non existent mobile coverage). Forum based concepts like threading would be good too, and auto conversion of emoticons to emojis, where a commonly understood text representation is available - :-) or :) would result
    in a smiley face, for example. I also expect that I can switch between the mobile app and the PC and pick up where I left off (that rules out point and traditional NNTP based solutions).

    A mobile app that's user friendly would be a great asset to BBSing.


    ... I like stuffed animals; oven baked with bread crumbs.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Tony Langdon on Sun Jun 21 17:43:00 2020
    Hello Tony!

    ** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 19:05, Tony Langdon wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    The presentation layer is not the realm of Fidonet. There is
    nothing in Fidonet that addresses the user experience.

    That's a succinct way of putting it, and I agree totally.

    Succinct, but not entirely correct. ;)

    http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016 See, "Presentation Layer"


    This echo is not limited to the discussion of the hidden workings of the protocols and technical mechanisms that users do not see.

    Just one example, the Origin line is a distictly fidonet identifier and is intended to be seen. HOW, that gets presented to the user in messages is left to the imagination.

    I posit that even new FTN-specific jargon that represents the technology
    it describes can be invented.

    New tools, information servers, etc.. that can enchance the end-user experience could be helpful.

    As per an earlier vision of what this echo would encompass, how to
    "advance means of access", and "keep Fidonet attractive" include a visual component in the scope of discussions.

    One example of a step forward to useability is the ability to capitalize
    on lauching http:// links in messages with a simple keystroke directly at
    a bbs or within an offline reader. As a couple of others in the echo
    alluded to, there is room for designing new markup language distinct to fidonet that bbs systems and reader programs can understand.

    Let's not forget about the user in the discussions of the future for this technology.


    ../|ug


    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    A post-script comment from the FUTURE4FIDO Roving Reporter: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    I recently came across this fine article about Usenet in the Linux
    Magazine:

    https://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2018/217/Usenet

    While reading it, the parallels and similarities to Fidonet kept surfacing (anarchistic network, many servers, giant bulletin board, forums vs echos, server administrators vs fidonet nodes, etc. But unlike usenet, fidonet doesn't have the failings found in usenet: specifically uncontrolled
    blatant spam.

    Fidonet has good potential to be a viable alternative for the user
    interested in discussion - but without the spam, ad-tracking, high noise
    to signal ratio, and many of the other failings that usenet newsgoup users can attest to.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Tony Langdon on Sun Jun 21 19:07:00 2020
    Hello Tony!

    ** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 19:27, Tony Langdon wrote to Nick Andre:

    Bringing us to my "point" about how if we take away the techie-
    aspect from newcomers and focus on a decent mobile/tablet app, thats
    a step in the right direction.

    I agree totally.

    If I was to use a mobile app for BBS messaging, I'd want a mobile
    friendly touch screen interface, with more or less the same features
    as an offline reader, including the ability to work offline if needed
    (I do go into places with iffy or non existent mobile coverage).
    Forum based concepts like threading would be good too,

    How could those features be invoked? Would they be ushered from hot areas
    on the edges (like some adaptive websites work with the "hamburger" icon)
    to pull up a menu? I imagine that most additional controls would have to
    be out of sight inorder to maximize the reading pane.


    and auto conversion of emoticons to emojis, where a commonly
    understood text representation is available - :-) or :) would result
    in a smiley face, for example.

    That goes without saying! But there would be so many to process! People
    seem to be inventing new ones all the time. Personally I wouldn't want to spend too much time looking through a pull-up of all the choices when
    writing a message on mobile. But the inline decode could be appreciated.


    I also expect that I can switch between the mobile app and the PC and
    pick up where I left off (that rules out point and traditional NNTP
    based solutions).

    I can appreciate that aspect more and more now. I wouldn't mind catching
    up with messages with OXP on one pc, but when I go to TB on another pc,
    deja vu is not always a pleasant experience.


    A mobile app that's user friendly would be a great asset to BBSing.

    Maybe someone could come up with a mockup app that demostrates how things could look and operate.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.44
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 22 00:53:22 2020
    Uryyb Nhthfg!

    21 Wha 20 17:43, lbh jebgr gb Gbal Ynatqba:

    Guvf rpub vf abg yvzvgrq gb gur qvfphffvba bs gur uvqqra jbexvatf bs gur cebgbpbyf naq grpuavpny zrpunavfzf gung hfref qb abg frr.

    Whfg bar rknzcyr, gur Bevtva yvar vf n qvfgvpgyl svqbarg vqragvsvre naq
    vf
    vagraqrq gb or frra. UBJ, gung trgf cerfragrq gb gur hfre va zrffntrf
    vf
    yrsg gb gur vzntvangvba.

    Gur bevtvayvar vf n grpuavpny nqqvgvba gung unf n svkrq fgehpgher naq cynpr nsgre gur zrffntr oybpx. Vg pbagnvaf gur nqqerff bs gur bevtvangvat flfgrz.
    Vg vf gur bayl cynpr va gur jubyr zrffntr fgehpgher, jurer gung nqqerff pna or sbhaq. Vg vf cerfragrq gb gur hfre, nf vg vf qrsvarq vg vf abg serr sbezng.

    Xrrf

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 22 01:01:46 2020
    Hello August!

    21 Jun 20 17:43, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    One example of a step forward to useability is the ability to capitalize on lauching http:// links in messages with a simple keystroke directly at a bbs or within an offline reader. As a couple of others in the echo alluded to, there is room for designing new markup language distinct to fidonet that bbs systems and reader programs can understand.

    What you want with url's works on my terminal, it is part of the presentaionlayer of my terminal program. I see no way how e.g. a BBS could launch a webbrowser on my screen. If it could I would consider it a security hazard. Even if it could, it would be a feature of the BBS and not of Fidonet.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 22 14:35:00 2020
    On 06-21-20 17:43, August Abolins wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Hello Tony!

    ** On Tuesday 09.06.20 - 19:05, Tony Langdon wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    The presentation layer is not the realm of Fidonet. There is
    nothing in Fidonet that addresses the user experience.

    That's a succinct way of putting it, and I agree totally.

    Succinct, but not entirely correct. ;)

    http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016 See, "Presentation Layer"

    Hmm, a lot of that seemed to either say that there's no real standards for the presentation layer, other than giving an example for what looked like a WFC screen. And the description of the packet looked more appropriate for a lower level of the stack. So, other than an Origin: line, what is actually mandated at the presentation layer? Very little, if anything, from what I can see. That means pretty much a blank canvas to work with. :)

    I posit that even new FTN-specific jargon that represents the
    technology it describes can be invented.

    If it serves a purpose, why not?

    New tools, information servers, etc.. that can enchance the end-user experience could be helpful.

    As per an earlier vision of what this echo would encompass, how to "advance means of access", and "keep Fidonet attractive" include a
    visual component in the scope of discussions.

    One example of a step forward to useability is the ability to
    capitalize on lauching http:// links in messages with a simple
    keystroke directly at a bbs or within an offline reader. As a couple

    That would be nice - my copy of Multimail certainly doesn't allow easy HTTP(S):// access - I have to do the copy/paste thing.

    of others in the echo alluded to, there is room for designing new
    markup language distinct to fidonet that bbs systems and reader
    programs can understand.

    Let's not forget about the user in the discussions of the future for
    this technology.

    This is an area where we could really make BBS technology a viable competitor to things like web forums.


    ... Speed doesn't kill. Stopping very fast kills.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to August Abolins on Mon Jun 22 14:40:00 2020
    On 06-21-20 19:07, August Abolins wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    How could those features be invoked? Would they be ushered from hot
    areas on the edges (like some adaptive websites work with the
    "hamburger" icon) to pull up a menu? I imagine that most additional controls would have to be out of sight inorder to maximize the reading pane.

    The "hamburger menu" is an obvious option, or some functions could be activated
    with a swipe (e.g. downloading and uploading offline mail, when in offline mode).


    and auto conversion of emoticons to emojis, where a commonly
    understood text representation is available - :-) or :) would result
    in a smiley face, for example.

    That goes without saying! But there would be so many to process!
    People seem to be inventing new ones all the time. Personally I
    wouldn't want to spend too much time looking through a pull-up of all
    the choices when writing a message on mobile. But the inline decode
    could be appreciated.

    At least the common ones like :) :( :D, etc. I find it annoying when some interface won't convert emoticons to emojis, because I'm so used to typing them
    out.


    I also expect that I can switch between the mobile app and the PC and
    pick up where I left off (that rules out point and traditional NNTP
    based solutions).

    I can appreciate that aspect more and more now. I wouldn't mind
    catching up with messages with OXP on one pc, but when I go to TB on another pc, deja vu is not always a pleasant experience.

    You see my problem. :) And that's probably one of my resistance factors against switching to OXP - I'm back to having a single database independent of any other devices that I may want to use.


    A mobile app that's user friendly would be a great asset to BBSing.

    Maybe someone could come up with a mockup app that demostrates how
    things could look and operate.

    Any mobile app developers in here?


    ... "Did you open the Microwave door before the 'ding'"?
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Kees van Eeten on Mon Jun 22 10:57:47 2020
    Re: the presentation layer
    By: Kees van Eeten to August Abolins on Mon Jun 22 2020 01:01:46


    One example of a step forward to useability is the ability to
    capitalize on lauching http:// links in messages with a simple
    keystroke directly at a bbs or within an offline reader. As a
    couple of others in the echo alluded to, there is room for
    designing new markup language distinct to fidonet that bbs
    systems and reader programs can understand.

    What you want with url's works on my terminal, it is part of
    the presentaionlayer of my terminal program.

    same here... i right click on the link and select either "open link" or "copy link"... my terminal is konsole using ssh to connect to my BBS...

    I see no way how e.g. a BBS could launch a webbrowser on my
    screen.

    not automatically, no...

    If it could I would consider it a security hazard. Even if
    it could, it would be a feature of the BBS and not of Fidonet.

    exactly, on both accounts...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Pasquale Monti@2:335/370 to Tony Langdon on Wed Jul 29 23:50:24 2020
    Hello

    Unfortunately, Aftershock has some serious shortcomings under the hood
    - it's designed as a point, which is the wrong model. Users who have multiple devices (e.g. phone, tablet, PC) should be able to switch
    devices and see the system in the same state (other than any messages actially being edited on a device). This is the problem I personally
    have with both point based systems and NNTP. You wouldn't expect on Facebook or a web forum to be up to date on one device, then have to re-mark messages as read on your other devices!


    Interesting point of view! But there is already everything, just read the messages from BBS instead of the point perhaps via WEB!

    Best Regards


    Pasquale

    --- - ITBNET BBS http://bbs.itbnet.eu
    * Origin: Tenta, ritenta che alla fine riesci ! (2:335/370)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Pasquale Monti on Thu Jul 30 11:40:00 2020
    On 07-29-20 23:50, Pasquale Monti wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Interesting point of view! But there is already everything, just read
    the messages from BBS instead of the point perhaps via WEB!

    And besides the fact that I really don't like web interfaces, that makes another potentially faulty assumption - that I want to, or even can do it over the network live - generally, O don't want to, especially using HTTP, and in the summer months, I am often on roads (as a passenger in a bus), where mobile coverage is intermittent - an offline solution works better then.


    ... I WAS PUT ON THIS EARTH TO MAKE YOUR LIFE MISERABLE.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Rob Swindell@1:103/705 to mark lewis on Mon Aug 3 12:30:01 2020
    Re: Re: In the future..
    By: mark lewis to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 08 2020 12:07 pm

    what i speak of above works with any terminal program that recognises CTerm (i think) ANSI mouse sequences... deuce and digital man have been working together to get it into synchronet and syncterm...

    We're actually just using the X11 standards for terminal mouse reporting. Nothing SyncTERM/CTerm specific about it.


    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #19:
    DM = Digital Man (Rob Swindell) or Dungeon Master
    Norco, CA WX: 89.6øF, 37.0% humidity, 4 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Dan Richter on Sun Aug 9 12:05:00 2020
    Hello Dan!

    ** On Sunday 07.06.20 - 10:48, Dan Richter wrote to Nick Andre:

    What would be really good is a mobile/tablet app that is so dumbed-
    down that it just focuses on messaging. Let the newcomer get their
    feet wet with that, and if they actually are techie or want a taste
    of nostalgia they can go ahead and experiment with mailers and BBS
    software.

    Very good point. At this point, there really isn't even a good way to access the technology via a mobile device. Granted, I haven't looked
    at all of them, but from what I've seen, they are clumsy to work
    with.

    By now, you may have heard that at least one BBS is gating some of their local echos into and out of Telegram.

    I've watched a few YT videos on what this thing looks like and how it operates. I see a couple of shortcomings.

    [1] Quoting. Say goodbye to the traditional fidonet style quoting appearance. Most replies would seem to be either independent messages or top-quote.

    [2] Related to the above, unless the gateway software can pull the message
    id of each Telegram message and convert to a fidonet MSGID/REPLYID,
    threading would get lost.

    [3] Each account is tied to the phone number for the user. That might be
    fine for the user (analogous to a BBS user or a point), but inorder to
    work, the BBS sysop would have to sacrifice their phone's Telegram account
    to identify as the gateway-ID.

    So, barring the secret sauce that the one fidonet BBS is using to gate
    into and out of Telegram, the Telegram app which is already available for
    iOS and Android may be a viable start.


    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Mon Aug 10 13:51:13 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-08-09 12:05:00, you wrote to Dan Richter:

    [3] Each account is tied to the phone number for the user. That might
    be fine for the user (analogous to a BBS user or a point), but inorder
    to work, the BBS sysop would have to sacrifice their phone's Telegram account to identify as the gateway-ID.

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the account verification process. Once you have created the Telegram account you don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Aug 10 08:59:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** On Monday 10.08.20 - 13:51, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    [3] Each account is tied to the phone number for the user. That might
    be fine for the user (analogous to a BBS user or a point), but inorder
    to work, the BBS sysop would have to sacrifice their phone's Telegram
    account to identify as the gateway-ID.

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the account verification process. Once you have created the Telegram account you don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Thank you for posting that.

    It is cool to be reminded about alternative ways to get a temporary phone number forwarded to one's "real" cellphone. I heard of some of them some
    time ago. I may even employ one of the methods to minimize exposing my
    real cell number for general use.

    But the title of the article is misleading. You ultimately still need a
    real cellphone to forward the temporary one since the verification process
    is via text. A plain landline phone nummber isn't going to work.

    It is good to know that my assumption about sacrificing a cellphone for a dedicated gate with Telegram is wrong.

    (BTW.. the site is a horrible advertising mess with a constant feed of ads refreshing + animations + popups, and wasting my data, and ads placed
    within the body of the text every new page-down. The main article of the text was loaded but data continued to stream up to 6MB within 2 minutes
    while reading the article, and no signs of slowing down before I cut it
    off.)

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Mon Aug 10 15:20:02 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-08-10 08:59:00, you wrote to me:

    [3] Each account is tied to the phone number for the user. That
    might be fine for the user (analogous to a BBS user or a point), but
    inorder to work, the BBS sysop would have to sacrifice their phone's
    Telegram account to identify as the gateway-ID.

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the account
    verification process. Once you have created the Telegram account you
    don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Thank you for posting that.

    It is cool to be reminded about alternative ways to get a temporary phone number forwarded to one's "real" cellphone. I heard of some of them some time ago. I may even employ one of the methods to minimize exposing my real cell number for general use.

    But the title of the article is misleading. You ultimately still need
    a real cellphone to forward the temporary one since the verification process is via text. A plain landline phone nummber isn't going to
    work.

    Nope, but you do need a working internet connection, with a browser, on your connection device...

    It is good to know that my assumption about sacrificing a cellphone
    for a dedicated gate with Telegram is wrong.

    (BTW.. the site is a horrible advertising mess with a constant feed of
    ads
    refreshing + animations + popups, and wasting my data, and ads placed
    within the body of the text every new page-down. The main article of
    the
    text was loaded but data continued to stream up to 6MB within 2 minutes
    while reading the article, and no signs of slowing down before I cut it
    off.)

    I don't see them because of add-blocker plugins in my browser. ;-)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Mon Aug 10 20:29:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** On Monday 10.08.20 - 15:20, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    But the title of the article is misleading. You ultimately still
    need a real cellphone to forward the temporary one since the
    verification process is via text. A plain landline phone nummber
    isn't going to work.

    Nope, but you do need a working internet connection, with a browser, on your connection device...

    Ah.. yes, with the service from FreePhonNum and ReceiveSMS, an actual
    phone is not required at all and can be triggered on a completely
    different device such as a laptop.

    Those two above just blow my mind. They're kinda like echomail for sms. <LOL>. The sms texts are totally public! Anyone can read the sms texts.
    But hopefully the one that pertains to you will show up in a few minutes
    and stand out.


    (BTW.. the site is a horrible advertising mess with a constant feed of
    ads refreshing + animations + popups, and wasting my data, and ads
    placed within the body of the text every new page-down. The main
    article of the text was loaded but data continued to stream up to 6MB
    within 2 minutes while reading the article, and no signs of slowing
    down before I cut it off.)

    I don't see them because of add-blocker plugins in my browser. ;-)

    I had uBlocker and noScript on my XP pc for a few years. But eventually Firefox disabled them. :( Meanwhile, this recent experience has been
    the incentive I needed to look for an alternative plug-in. Found one. https://www.rollingstone.com/ is also notorious for streaming ads. The new plugin blocked 66 ads in 3 minutes, and the number keeps increasing while reading just one specific page. Sheeesh.

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Tue Aug 11 09:22:43 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-08-10 20:29:00, you wrote to me:

    Nope, but you do need a working internet connection, with a browser,
    on your connection device...

    Ah.. yes, with the service from FreePhonNum and ReceiveSMS, an actual phone is not required at all and can be triggered on a completely different device such as a laptop.

    Those two above just blow my mind. They're kinda like echomail for sms. <LOL>. The sms texts are totally public! Anyone can read the sms texts. But hopefully the one that pertains to you will show up in a few minutes and stand out.

    And I don't think you need a phone for google voice either...

    I don't see them because of add-blocker plugins in my browser. ;-)

    I had uBlocker and noScript on my XP pc for a few years. But
    eventually Firefox disabled them. :( Meanwhile, this recent
    experience has been the incentive I needed to look for an alternative plug-in. Found one. https://www.rollingstone.com/ is also notorious
    for streaming ads. The new plugin blocked 66 ads in 3 minutes, and the number keeps increasing while reading just one specific page. Sheeesh.

    In my firefox I use Ghostery, Privacy Badger, and especially against adds: uBlock Origin.

    I hardly see any commercial content that way. Even the adds "in" youtube video's are gone...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tue Aug 11 22:26:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** On Tuesday 11.08.20 - 09:22, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    Ah.. yes, with the service from FreePhonNum and ReceiveSMS.. Those
    two above just blow my mind. They're kinda like echomail for sms.
    <LOL>. The sms texts are totally public! Anyone can read the sms
    texts.

    And I don't think you need a phone for google voice either...

    True. It's a total pc/webbased solution.

    Is google voice available in your country? It seems to be only available
    in the USA. But it must have been free to all at one time since it looks like I used it a long time ago when it was first announced; a couple phone numbers are present in the history logs.

    Yahoo had a similar thing, but with it you could only call and leave a recording. That option seemed amazing at the time when cell phones and
    plans and contracts were very expensive.

    Years ago, I used a service called iConnect. It was a VoIP type of thing using your computer with their desktop program. There were no ongoing monthly costs. I could bank a few dollars, and they would only be used up only when you made a call. It was handy when I was travelling more at the time.


    In my firefox I use Ghostery, Privacy Badger, and especially against adds: uBlock Origin.

    AdBlocker ultimate seems to be doing a smashing job on my XP pc. NoScript seems to be all I need on my Win7 pc.


    I hardly see any commercial content that way. Even the adds "in" youtube video's are gone...

    I gave up on watching YT directly online primarily because of the injected commercials. Good to hear that the commercials disappear with your combination of ad-blocker plugins. Instead, I download the file, store it
    in a USB stick and watch it a home later.

    BTW, Stas has indicated that he has hooked up to this echo. Hopefully
    he'll jump in soon and expound on his Telegram/fidonet gateway.

    He explained a couple of things in netmail. I might write it up as a
    report and post some of it here.

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Wed Aug 12 09:40:27 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-08-11 22:26:00, you wrote to me:

    And I don't think you need a phone for google voice either...

    True. It's a total pc/webbased solution.

    Is google voice available in your country? It seems to be only available in the USA.

    I didn't check that before, but I don't think so, at least the website says: "Voice is only available in the U.S.", and that's pretty clear. ;)

    I hardly see any commercial content that way. Even the adds "in"
    youtube video's are gone...

    I gave up on watching YT directly online primarily because of the
    injected commercials. Good to hear that the commercials disappear with your combination of ad-blocker plugins. Instead, I download the file, store it in a USB stick and watch it a home later.

    I sometimes download a YT vid, to watch it on my TV with my media player. But I don't take the trouble for most of them...

    BTW, Stas has indicated that he has hooked up to this echo. Hopefully he'll jump in soon and expound on his Telegram/fidonet gateway.

    We'll see. ;)

    He explained a couple of things in netmail. I might write it up as a report and post some of it here.

    Ok...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Aug 13 00:43:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** On Wednesday 12.08.20 - 09:40, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to August Abolins:

    BTW, Stas has indicated that he has hooked up to this echo. Hopefully
    he'll jump in soon and expound on his Telegram/fidonet gateway.

    We'll see. ;)

    He has indicted to me that he sent one to post on Sunday, but it hasn't
    shown up here.


    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to August Abolins on Thu Aug 13 15:30:31 2020
    Hi! August,

    On 13 Aug 20 00:43, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    BTW, Stas has indicated that he has hooked up to this echo.
    Hopefully he'll jump in soon and expound on his Telegram/fidonet
    gateway.
    We'll see. ;)

    He has indicted to me that he sent one to post on Sunday, but it
    hasn't shown up here.

    We uneathed a glitch in the FidoMatrix, fixed l-a-t-e last night (my time). Standby for plan B...

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... My toys! My toys! I can't do this job without my toys!
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Stas Mishchenkov@2:460/5858 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Aug 13 11:00:16 2020
    Hi, Wilfred!

    10  ¢£ 20 13:51, Wilfred van Velzen -> August Abolins:

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the account verification process. Once you have created the Telegram account you don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Thank You. It's wery interesting for me.

    Have nice nights.
    Stas Mishchenkov.

    --- Second try
    * Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Stas Mishchenkov on Thu Aug 13 14:15:34 2020
    Hi Stas,

    On 2020-08-13 11:00:16, you wrote to me:

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the
    account verification process. Once you have created the Telegram
    account you don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Thank You. It's wery interesting for me.

    Did you use your own mobile number to create the Fido2telebot Telegram account?


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Stas Mishchenkov@2:460/5858 to Wilfred van Velzen on Thu Aug 13 17:30:30 2020
    Hi, Wilfred!

    13  ¢£ 20 14:15, Wilfred van Velzen -> Stas Mishchenkov:

    That's not strictly true! You only need a phonenumber for the
    account verification process. Once you have created the Telegram
    account you don't need it anymore:

    https://social.techjunkie.com/use-telegram-without-phone-number/

    Thank You. It's wery interesting for me.

    Did you use your own mobile number to create the Fido2telebot Telegram account?

    Not. You don't need a phone number to create a bot. However, Brother Rabbit in the telegram used the real number for registration. ;)

    Have nice nights.
    Stas Mishchenkov.

    --- ‘ ¬®¥ áâà è­®¥ ­¥ â®, çâ® ¬ë ⥯¥àì ¢§à®á«ë¥. € â®, çâ® ¢§à®á«ë¥ ⥯¥àì ¬ë
    * Origin: Lame Users Breeding. Simferopol, Crimea. (2:460/5858)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Stas Mishchenkov on Fri Aug 14 10:23:37 2020
    Hi Stas,

    On 2020-08-13 17:30:30, you wrote to me:

    Did you use your own mobile number to create the Fido2telebot
    Telegram account?

    Not. You don't need a phone number to create a bot. However, Brother
    Rabbit
    in the telegram used the real number for registration. ;)

    I know since yesterday. I experimented a bit with a Telegram bot, and was able to send a message from a linux machine to my Telegram account, without registering a new account by telephone number. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Wilfred van Velzen on Fri Aug 14 20:47:00 2020
    Hello Wilfred!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 10:23, Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Stas Mishchenkov:

    Did you use your own mobile number to create the Fido2telebot
    Telegram account?

    Not. You don't need a phone number to create a bot. However, Brother
    Rabbit in the telegram used the real number for registration. ;)

    I know since yesterday. I experimented a bit with a Telegram bot,
    and was able to send a message from a linux machine to my Telegram account, without registering a new account by telephone number. ;)

    HOW do you send a message without registering?

    I just tried registering a telegram account. I first tried some of the
    free phone numbers at freephonenum.com. Immediately, I got "too many tries.." I tried a few other numbers and a couple came up "banned".

    I succeeded getting through to the next level with one of the numbers.
    The SMS code showed up at freephonenum.com. I entered the code and then I was transported to an "enter your cloud password" panel. What is that?

    I could not get passed that.

    I reconnected to get a new IP address, and this time I used my real cell number. Again, I got "too many tries.."

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to August Abolins on Sat Aug 15 11:02:13 2020
    Hi August,

    On 2020-08-14 20:47:00, you wrote to me:

    I know since yesterday. I experimented a bit with a Telegram bot,
    and was able to send a message from a linux machine to my Telegram
    account, without registering a new account by telephone number. ;)

    HOW do you send a message without registering?

    You don't create a regular account, but you create a bot. A bot can be created without the phone registration.

    A bot can be talked to by regular users, and once they are connected a bot can send them messages.

    But a bot itself can only be operated through the Telegram Bot API. I tried that directly with commands from the linux command line: 'curl https://something...', and through a python api that makes it easier to talk to the Telegram API from a python script...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Jay Harris@1:229/664 to August Abolins on Sat Aug 15 05:44:09 2020
    On 14 Aug 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    I succeeded getting through to the next level with one of the numbers. The SMS code showed up at freephonenum.com. I entered the code and then
    I was transported to an "enter your cloud password" panel. What is that?

    I could not get passed that.

    It sounds like someone has already registered a Telegram account with that phone number & has enabled two factor authentication.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/11 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON (1:229/664)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.58 to Jay Harris on Sat Aug 15 21:57:00 2020
    Hello Jay!

    ** On Saturday 15.08.20 - 05:44, Jay Harris wrote to August Abolins:

    On 14 Aug 2020, August Abolins said the following...

    I succeeded getting through to the next level with one of the
    numbers. The SMS code showed up at freephonenum.com. I entered the
    code and then I was transported to an "enter your cloud password"
    panel. What is that?

    I could not get passed that.

    It sounds like someone has already registered a Telegram account with
    that phone number & has enabled two factor authentication.

    Yes, that is what I was sensing when I was getting repeated fails. I
    ended up using my own cell # and it worked.

    THEREFORE, the original article about using Telegram without your own telephone number is misleading. Since the registration is tied to the number, the numbers offered at places like freephonenum.com or
    receivesms.org are not a good choice. If you need to reregister, it would
    be unlikely that the same number would be available anymore.

    Anyway.. I'm in now using the desktop version. I am not sure how
    feasible the fidonet experience would be on a smartphone. But here is an
    app that is already built for all the popular platforms and ready to go. With the gating that someone has figured out, the telegram/fidonet pairing could be a fine match.



    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.45
    * Origin: The future is not what it used to be. (2:221/1.58)