• Netmail routing

    From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ward Dossche on Sun Jun 6 15:26:58 2021
    Hello Ward,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 11:43, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

    I get a lot of out of zone netmail as a ZC and will forward that to my colleague ZCs in other zone from where it trickles down to final destination. I also handle a lot of netmail for all other regions,
    easy, I'm in touch with all RCs by default, hence I can assure a guaranteed delivery.

    With all due respect, no such guarantee can be given. There is no known co-sysop for your system so if it crashes during your absence nothing can be done. In the past that has happened on more than one occasison.

    Over the years I have set up direct links with almost all of the Z2 RCs and with some in other zones. I prefer to deliver netmail as close to the destination as possible and practical. Less hops, less potential problems. These bypasses to my fellow RCs are used for that purpose.

    Of course my system is not immune to failure either but then it only affects mail to and from R28, not the entire zone.

    the day I became a ZC and that has worked without complaints since
    day-1 ... that was now close to 27 years ago.

    Feel free to disagree.

    See above.


    Cheers, Michiel
    --- Fmail, Binkd, Golded
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Jun 6 11:46:45 2021
    On 06 Jun 21 15:26:58, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Ward Dossche

    Over the years I have set up direct links with almost all of the Z2 RCs and with some in other zones. I prefer to deliver netmail as close to the destination as possible and practical. Less hops, less potential problems. These bypasses to my fellow RCs are used for that purpose.

    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some time despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Nick Andre on Sun Jun 6 18:17:42 2021
    Hello Nick,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 11:46, you wrote to me:

    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some time despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.

    Indeed, I do not have a direct link with you. I did in the past, but it was discontinued on your "request".

    And the problem is?

    That is the beauty of Fido over IP. There is no problem. No one is dependant on one particular link. If some arrogant asshole no longer wants to link with me, I just route around him/her. I have plenty of direct links into Z1 to not need you.

    Have a nice day.


    Cheers, Michiel
    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Jun 6 12:50:58 2021
    On 06 Jun 21 18:17:42, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Nick Andre:

    That is the beauty of Fido over IP. There is no problem. No one is dependan on one particular link. If some arrogant asshole no longer wants to link wi me, I just route around him/her. I have plenty of direct links into Z1 to n need you.

    Okay soooo.... why the need to insult Ward's system then in the first place, if you can just route your way around everything in place?

    Lemme guess - because "you can".

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 6 18:59:12 2021
    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some time
    despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.

    MvdV> Indeed, I do not have a direct link with you. I did in the past, but it
    MvdV> was discontinued on your "request".

    And despite some outright bullshit claim, the zone war goes on...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Nick Andre on Sun Jun 6 19:33:19 2021
    Hello Nick,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 12:50, you wrote to me:

    That is the beauty of Fido over IP. There is no problem. No one is
    dependan on one particular link. If some arrogant asshole no
    longer wants to link wi me, I just route around him/her. I have
    plenty of direct links into Z1 to n need you.

    Okay soooo.... why the need to insult Ward's system then in the first place,

    Eh? I wasn't aware that "systems" are vulnerable to insult. I thought only people can take insults.

    Whatever, I was merely stating the facts as observed by me and others. Ward's system has gone off-line during his absences on more than one occasion. No insult, just an observation.

    Lemme guess - because "you can".

    If you have to guess, it means you do not know.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sun Jun 6 22:15:45 2021
    Michiel,

    I'm in touch with all RCs by default, hence I can assure a
    guaranteed delivery.

    With all due respect, no such guarantee can be given.

    You really need to read what it says, not what you think it says. I guarantee delivery ... If a netmail does not reach me, of course it will not be delivered. But when I get it, I have a delivery option which works...

    ... There is no known
    co-sysop for your system so if it crashes during your absence nothing can be done. In the past that has happened on more than one occasison.

    You are not wrong here, of course. "on more than one occasion" is probably right ... so was that more than 2 occasions, or just 2? I'm calculating a reliability of 99,68% ... not bad, not bad at all.

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 6 22:21:22 2021
    Bjorn,

    And despite some outright bullshit claim, the zone war goes on...

    Not with the current ZC1 and ZC2 at the helm.

    You have no clue how well and how close we work together to keep the ship afloat ... including hour-long phone-conversations ... ZC1 has access to everything here if he so desires, there's a level of trust and confidentiality which previously were impossible in Fidonet.

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 6 21:55:52 2021
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 18:59, you wrote to me:

    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some
    time despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.

    MvdV>> Indeed, I do not have a direct link with you. I did in the
    MvdV>> past, but it was discontinued on your "request".

    And despite some outright bullshit claim, the zone war goes on...

    I never believed that with the "Fidonews coup Troika" out of the way, the zone war would be over by decree of the two ZC's concerned. Too many old wounds that haven't healed yet.

    Having said that, I do not think what we see here is the return of the zone war. This is merely an issue with the person presently carrying the Z1C hat and and some sysops who do not like his style. Obviously the ZC1 is not a diplomat. But his undiplomacy is not just aimed at me or other Z2 sysops. Z1 sysops are on his radar as well. It happens. Ever so often technicians are lousy diplomats. Of course that does not work the other way around. Being a lousy diplomat does not necessarilly make a good technician.

    I do not know why he keeps harping on me. I probably said something that ruffled his feathers. When I was the chairperson of the FTSC, I tried to work on my diplomatic skills to build bridges instead of walls. Now that I am no longer in that position, I have better things to do than to try to make friends with everybody. If somenone does not like me, so be it. I just move on.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Mike Miller@1:154/30.1 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 6 15:25:13 2021
    Hello, Bjrn Felten.
    On 6/6/21 6:59 PM you wrote:

    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some
    time despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.
    MvdV>> Indeed, I do not have a direct link with you. I did in the
    MvdV>> past, but it was discontinued on your "request".
    And despite some outright bullshit claim, the zone war goes
    on...
    Fidonet will never die. In the end it will come down to two old men fighting about how they send mail to each other
    --
    Mike
    BBS: warensemble.com
    --- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
    * Origin: South of Heaven - warensemble.com (1:154/30.1)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Sun Jun 6 18:00:37 2021
    On 06 Jun 21 21:55:52, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Bj*Rn Felten

    Having said that, I do not think what we see here is the return of the zone war. This is merely an issue with the person presently carrying the Z1C hat and and some sysops who do not like his style. Obviously the ZC1 is not a diplomat. But his undiplomacy is not just aimed at me or other Z2 sysops. Z sysops are on his radar as well. It happens. Ever so often technicians are lousy diplomats. Of course that does not work the other way around. Being a lousy diplomat does not necessarilly make a good technician.

    LOL. I'm not here to be liked or be diplomatic or even get along with anyone.

    There are very specific things I do in Fidonet and entertaining your masturbatory fantasies is not one of them. The more you rant about a zone-war the more it says about your secret desire to have one... you just can't stand that really nothing interesting happens in zone 1. Ask Wilfred and where
    his nose is buried... if I fart he will tell you I should eat less cabbage.

    Everyone gets "one chance" with me, including you. You blew that not by insulting me over a lack of IPV6 but rather when you decided to accuse me of acting on in-transit Netmail after Ben Ritchey died. Whatever your mental-hangup is, maybe its a Dutch thing... I don't care two shits. When you and some others make the grand-departure I will not give two shits either.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mike Miller on Sun Jun 6 18:05:48 2021
    On 06 Jun 21 15:25:13, Mike Miller said the following to Bj*Rn Felten:

    You do not have a direct-link here and have not for quite some
    time despite your outright bullshit claim in another echo.
    MvdV>> Indeed, I do not have a direct link with you. I did in the
    MvdV>> past, but it was discontinued on your "request".
    And despite some outright bullshit claim, the zone war goes
    on...
    Fidonet will never die. In the end it will come down to two old men fightin about how they send mail to each other

    I'm far from old...

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From T.J. Mcmillen@1:129/305 to Nick Andre on Sun Jun 6 20:34:39 2021
    Fidonet will never die. In the end it will come down to two old men fighti about how they send mail to each other

    I'm far from old...

    I don't get what all the bitching is about? Posts come in, posts go out. Now if 3000 dupes are being tossed in, that's a different story. Other than that, I see no issues, just tons of bitching.

    ... If it ain't broken, play with it till it is.
    --- Renegade v1.25/DOS
    * Origin: The Titantic BBS Telnet - ttb.rgbbs.info (1:129/305)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to T.J. Mcmillen on Mon Jun 7 02:52:20 2021
    On 06 Jun 21 20:34:39, T.J. Mcmillen said the following to Nick Andre:

    I don't get what all the bitching is about? Posts come in, posts go out. if 3000 dupes are being tossed in, that's a different story. Other than tha I see no issues, just tons of bitching.

    Some individuals overseas miss the days of zone-wars, as if anyone cares in 2021. They can go fuck themselves. Its just too quiet for them these days.
    Only things happening in Fidonet are test messages and Linux masturbation.

    Dupes get zapped here instantly. Every couple of years or so we get someone taking a dump with old messages rescanned. Its not hard to skip 'em.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 7 09:48:06 2021
    Hello Ward,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 22:15, you wrote to me:

    With all due respect, no such guarantee can be given.

    You really need to read what it says, not what you think it says.

    This is what you wrote:

    Following the network-tree is the way to send netmail ... the *C-structures are vertically in touch with eachother and netmail will arrive....

    "netmail will arrive", that is what you wrote.

    I guarantee delivery ... If a netmail does not reach me, of course it
    will not be delivered. But when I get it, I have a delivery option
    which works...

    Word play. My point is that your systenm is a single point of failure. Of course you can not deliver the mail if it never gets to your system. That also applies in the case the reason it never gets to your systenm is becasue your system is off-line.

    ... There is no known co-sysop for your system so if it crashes
    during your absence nothing can be done. In the past that has
    happened on more than one occasison.

    You are not wrong here, of course. "on more than one occasion" is
    probably right ... so was that more than 2 occasions, or just 2? I'm calculating a reliability of 99,68% ... not bad, not bad at all.

    I distrust figures that suggest four digit accuracy without further substantiation. I am not going to argue about on how many occasions your single Point of Failure has indeed failed. Two or ten times, I have better things to do then delve into the archives. The point is, it IS a SPOF and SPOF is to be avoided when possible.

    Avoiding SPOF is the reason I do not "follow the network tree" *1) by default. I deliver as close to the destination as possible. Bypasses to other RC's and even lower levels are part of this strategy. In this system your system is the last resort.

    It is very good that you and Kees have setup redundancy for the nodelist distribution. Kudos for that. But it does not work for nemail, so I will continue to deploy my own strategy.


    *1) It is not really a tree. It is more like a pyramid, or an inverted tree. The "root" ia at the top, not at the bootom.


    Cheers, Michiel
    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 7 11:11:59 2021
    Hey Michiel,

    "netmail will arrive", that is what you wrote.

    Yes, I stand by that. All netmail passing through the system here has a delivery solution direct to the region or zone. And more direct too if there was an arrangement.

    I distrust figures that suggest four digit accuracy without further substantiation. I am not going to argue about on how many occasions your single Point of Failure has indeed failed. Two or ten times, I have
    better things to do then delve into the archives. The point is, it IS a SPOF and SPOF is to be avoided when possible.

    I think I had a major disc crash in 2006 ... Janis helped me recover from that ... in 2014 there was a power surge for reasons never explained which burned several aparatuses in the household and caused a minor fire which went nowhere because of lack of combustable material nearby. There may have been something in 2016 as I threw all the old hardware out ... 5 years of smoothness since (touch wood). That's what I remember and that time when my wife destroyed the telephone wall outlet with the vacuum ... don't think it lasted a day...

    *1) It is not really a tree. It is more like a pyramid, or an inverted tree. The "root" ia at the top, not at the bootom.

    For the record, I am not really disagreeing with you even if you think I am.

    \%/@rd
    --- DB4
    * Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 7 11:32:54 2021
    Hello Nick,

    On Sunday June 06 2021 18:00, you wrote to me:

    LOL. I'm not here to be liked or be diplomatic or even get along with anyone.

    Obviously...

    There are very specific things I do in Fidonet and entertaining your masturbatory fantasies is not one of them. The more you rant about a zone-war the more it says about your secret desire to have one...

    I wasn't the one to bring "zone war" into this thread. Your assumptions about my "secret desires" are just projections. YOUR projections, not mine.

    Everyone gets "one chance" with me, including you. You blew that not
    by insulting me over a lack of IPV6

    You took that as an insult? Perhaps you should consider wearing shoes with toe protection...

    but rather when you decided to accuse me of acting on in-transit
    Netmail after Ben Ritchey died.

    I do not recall such an incident. You are not important enough to me to make a note of every incident and store it in the archives. If I made such an accusation, if, and I am neither confirming nor denying that I did, if I made such an accusation, I must have had a good reason for it as I do not make such accusations lightly.

    Whatever. Apart from the SPOF, all the more reason to avoid your system when routing netmail.

    Whatever your mental-hangup is, maybe its a Dutch thing... I don't
    care two shits. When you and some others make the grand-departure I
    will not give two shits either.

    Be assured that the feeling is mutual.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Mon Jun 7 08:30:27 2021
    On 07 Jun 21 11:32:54, Michiel Van Der Vlist said the following to Nick Andre:

    Whatever. Apart from the SPOF, all the more reason to avoid your system wh routing netmail.

    Excellent decision, captain obvious. Avoid my system.

    I don't do the Mark Lewis quote-game so the rest of your whining is ignored.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 7 16:09:10 2021
    Hello Ward,

    On Monday June 07 2021 11:11, you wrote to me:

    The point is, it IS a SPOF and SPOF is to be avoided when possible.

    I think I had a major disc crash in 2006 ... Janis helped me recover
    from that ... in 2014 there was a power surge for reasons never
    [..]
    5 years of smoothness since (touch wood). That's what I remember and
    that time when my wife destroyed the telephone wall outlet with the
    vacuum ... don't think it lasted a day...

    My notoriously unrelyable memorie tells me there were more incidents. What I am sure about is April 2020 during your Covid misadventure. You may have missed this entirely. Your binkp server answered calls and accepted data, but mail was not processed. No reply to PING and your areamanager did not respond either. The system was turned into a black hole. Mail was /not/ delivered.

    This is not an objurgation. I am not blaming you in any way. I am just reporting what was observed. We run an amateur network and things happen. We can not be asked to make large investments to insure against all possible mishap.

    The consequence is that there are no guarantees. Nobody can /guarantee/ delivery. Having said that: putting all the eggs in one basket is indeed not a good idea.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Fernando Toledo@4:902/26 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 7 12:51:59 2021
    El 7/6/21 a las 11:09, Michiel van der Vlist escribió:
    Hello Ward,

    On Monday June 07 2021 11:11, you wrote to me:

    Mv>> The point is, it IS a SPOF and SPOF is to be avoided when possible.

    WD> I think I had a major disc crash in 2006 ... Janis helped me recover
    WD> from that ... in 2014 there was a power surge for reasons never
    [..]
    WD> 5 years of smoothness since (touch wood). That's what I remember and
    WD> that time when my wife destroyed the telephone wall outlet with the
    WD> vacuum ... don't think it lasted a day...

    My notoriously unrelyable memorie tells me there were more incidents. What I am sure about is April 2020 during your Covid misadventure. You may have missed this entirely. Your binkp server answered calls and accepted data, but mail was not processed. No reply to PING and your areamanager did not respond either. The system was turned into a black hole. Mail was /not/ delivered.

    This is not an objurgation. I am not blaming you in any way. I am just reporting what was observed. We run an amateur network and things happen. We can not be asked to make large investments to insure against all possible mishap.

    The consequence is that there are no guarantees. Nobody can /guarantee/ delivery. Having said that: putting all the eggs in one basket is indeed not a good idea.

    I have same result with my Z4 uplink.. server died several times.. it's
    stop process messages and lost them too. I do not need uptime of 100%
    but almost less "stops".

    Saludos!
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Dock Sud BBS - http://bbs.docksud.com.ar (4:902/26)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Mon Jun 7 19:55:17 2021
    Whatever your mental-hangup is, maybe its a Dutch thing... I don't
    care two shits. When you and some others make the grand-departure I
    will not give two shits either.

    MvdV> Be assured that the feeling is mutual.

    It's always sad to watch people who can keep a grudge for years and years. The sad thing is that those grudges only inflicts on the grudgees. How come they don't have more important matters to care about in their life?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Carlos Navarro@2:341/234.1 to All on Sat Jun 12 10:24:57 2021
    What we have achieved is that there still is a Fidonet for you to
    return to.

    I appreciate it. Thank you all sysops, *Cs and everyone else who have kept Fidonet afloat.

    Also a big THANK YOU to the developers that have ported, enhanced, maintained, supported and created FTN software all these years.

    Carlos

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: costa blanca, Spain (2:341/234.1)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Carlos Navarro on Sat Jun 12 10:52:54 2021
    Hello Carlos,

    On Saturday June 12 2021 10:24, you wrote to All:

    What we have achieved is that there still is a Fidonet for you to
    return to.

    I appreciate it. Thank you all sysops, *Cs and everyone else who have
    kept Fidonet afloat.

    Also a big THANK YOU to the developers that have ported, enhanced, maintained, supported and created FTN software all these years.

    You'r welcome. Good to have you back. :-)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to Daniel PATH on Tue Jun 15 14:26:56 2021

    Sunday June 13 2021 21:58, Daniel PATH wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:


    MvdV>> in which Fidonet was born has changed. POTS is an outgoing technology
    MvdV>> and Fidonet has adapted by adopting a new technoly
    MvdV>> for transfering files: the binkp protocol. It was
    MvdV>> made possible by the coming of the Internet. It has

    just from a technical perspective: what is the difference between a
    normal mailer over telnet and binkp? (ok, maybe encryption)
    because in '90something i was already using my xenia over IP and
    carried a huge amount of international traffic to the hungarian backbone

    Xenia can also transfer mail via ftp. I had an international link over ftp once with Xenia. :)

    'Tommi

    --- Xenia Mailer 1.98.06+ OS/2
    * Origin: ---------------------------------->> (2:221/360)
  • From Deon George@3:633/509 to Nick Andre on Tue Jun 15 22:11:21 2021
    Re: Re: ZONE4 down?
    By: Nick Andre to Deon George on Tue Jun 15 2021 12:16 am

    Not trying to be Captain Obvious but D'Bridge was never designed with TCP connections in mind.

    Yeah, I know. Its probably a true statement for FrontDoor/Binkley as well.

    That said... a few months ago I tested D'Bridge with Frontdoor via TCP with the help of TJ Mcmillen at 1:129/305 when he had it
    running... we traded packets perfectly. The Zmodem "turnaround" you mention was there but worked.

    OK, I think I've worked out the differences (where FrontDoor/QICO/IFCICO are working, but D'Bridge isnt for me)..

    It would appear that DBridge is not adding <CR> to EMSI_INQ and EMSI_ACK responses. (I havent check the others specifically.)

    So when answering a call and sending EMSI_DAT, D'Bridge is responding with 2 EMSI_ACK's (as expected with CRC), but without any <CR>'s.

    When originating a call, D'Bridge doesnt include the <CR> after sending the EMSI_INQ (which is immediately followed by EMSI_DAT).

    Has it always worked this way? I can see reading FSC-0056 that it may be interpretted to operate this way (early in the document), but later in the "sequence definitions" it shows that each EMSI_* command should be terminated with CR (and references earlier that this is a trigger to flush buffers.)

    ...

    ... Witch! Witch! They'll burn ya! Hag, stardate unknown.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Deon George on Tue Jun 15 11:05:45 2021
    On 15 Jun 21 22:11:21, Deon George said the following to Nick Andre:

    Has it always worked this way? I can see reading FSC-0056 that it may be interpretted to operate this way (early in the document), but later in the

    The code appears so, at a first glance. Since D'Bridge works perfectly with EMSI on dialup with all other mailers, and as explained it worked perfectly with Frontdoor via. TCP, and it was the original author and JoHo who invented the whole thing... I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. It could also be that the way JoHo documented FSC-0056 may differ from the implementation.

    You did not explain what version of D'Bridge you were using or how exactly you are testing things nor did you indicate you tested others in the same manner.

    Do you have a dialup environment for testing?

    What happens if you force WaZoo negotiation via. Config-Advanced-Misc? Or FTS-0001?

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Deon George@3:633/509 to Nick Andre on Wed Jun 16 23:58:00 2021
    Re: Re: DBridge EMSI
    By: Nick Andre to Deon George on Tue Jun 15 2021 11:05 am

    Hi Nick,

    Has it always worked this way? I can see reading FSC-0056 that it may be interpretted to operate this way (early in the
    document), but later in the

    The code appears so, at a first glance. Since D'Bridge works perfectly with EMSI on dialup with all other mailers, and as explained
    it worked perfectly with Frontdoor via. TCP, and it was the original author and JoHo who invented the whole thing... I'm not sure
    how you want me to answer this. It could also be that the way JoHo documented FSC-0056 may differ from the implementation.

    So I deleted my DB setup and re-installed it from a fresh download, and indeed DBridge is working well with my other EMSI mailers (I've used Portal of Power, FrontDoor and IFCICO). So not sure what was happening previously, most likely finger trouble on my behalf.

    DB doesnt like QICO and my implementation of EMSI (which I referenced QICO when building it - bugger) - and I think it's for the reason I mentioned previously, in that a CR is not sent after EMSI_* packet/sequence definitions. A quick hack skipping some CRs certainly got me further in the EMSI setup handshake with DB, so it seems that CR may be optional in most implementations. Those other implementations must be providing it though, since I can exchange packets quite happily. I'll rework it to make it optional though.

    You did not explain what version of D'Bridge you were using or how exactly you are testing things nor did you indicate you tested
    others in the same manner.

    My "modem" is tcpser - with the serial port side going to DBridge - DBridge uses COM2. The TCP side receives IP connections from other mailers. (My FrontDoor and Portal are configured the same way as DBridge).

    I'm running dosemu on 1 system and qemu/MSDOS on another, although I've been doing most of my playing in dosemu, since I'm connecting successfully to everthing (except DB).

    ...

    ... I am not an Economist. I am an honest man!
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Deon George on Wed Jun 16 15:32:55 2021
    On 16 Jun 21 23:58:00, Deon George said the following to Nick Andre:

    My "modem" is tcpser - with the serial port side going to DBridge - DBridge uses COM2. The TCP side receives IP connections from other mailers. (My FrontDoor and Portal are configured the same way as DBridge).

    I'm running dosemu on 1 system and qemu/MSDOS on another, although I've bee doing most of my playing in dosemu, since I'm connecting successfully to everthing (except DB).

    I very clearly wrote in the documentation what the supported OS's and modems are and what you're describing is not any of them.

    You're seemingly making it a point to run my software on an unsupported OS with some unsupported weird virtual-modem thing. Then complaining in this echo (instead of Netmail or the DBRIDGE echo) that it "doesn't work", yet it "does work" and has worked for many thousands of Sysops since '91.

    This is another reason why I don't know how to answer you.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Deon George@3:633/509 to Nick Andre on Thu Jun 17 09:48:15 2021
    Re: Re: DBridge EMSI
    By: Nick Andre to Deon George on Wed Jun 16 2021 03:32 pm


    I very clearly wrote in the documentation what the supported OS's and modems are and what you're describing is not any of them.

    Sure, that's the beauty of free time, you can try other shit and see what breaks. Its not like this is going to run anything "mission critical", there are better choices for that if there were.

    You're seemingly making it a point to run my software on an unsupported OS with some unsupported weird virtual-modem thing. Then complaining in this echo (instead of Netmail or the DBRIDGE echo) that it "doesn't work", yet it "does work" and has
    worked for many thousands of Sysops since '91.

    Since when was I "complaining"? I clearly said "it's EMSI implementation is different somewhow which I need to debug further". That wasnt a complaint, in case its not clear to you, and its a true statement, as I've already explained.

    Standing back and looking at the bigger picture - I doubt many people are using EMSI these days over a serial interface, and I see you putting out updates often - thus my line of questioning was to probe to see if anything that you "changed" may have affected that implmentation. Especially since nothing else would talk to it, but those other things worked with each other.

    And yes, I know it was probably exclusively EMSI in '91, but its rare today.

    This is another reason why I don't know how to answer you.

    I'm not expecting any more answers - what makes you think I am? You already answered my question which helped me figure out why it wasnt working with another mailer that I do use and the one that I'm creating.

    This "it has always worked", and I've been "doing this since 1990" is a common response by some old dogs - I can see why othernets are so much more appealing. It was a mistake responding to you in the first place, I should have learnt from the first time.

    ...

    ... Never try to out-stubborn a cat.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (3:633/509)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Deon George on Wed Jun 16 20:50:53 2021
    On 17 Jun 21 09:48:15, Deon George said the following to Nick Andre:

    Standing back and looking at the bigger picture - I doubt many people are using EMSI these days over a serial interface, and I see you putting out updates often - thus my line of questioning was to probe to see if anything that you "changed" may have affected that implmentation. Especially since

    I haven't touched the EMSI code... ever. Not about to mess with what works, and that was explained to you earlier.

    Sometimes a dialup BBS wants the whole retro-thing with having a feed here, which I can and have provided to several systems with no problem. EMSI to Frontdoor, Binkleyterm, POP, Viamail, TBBS/Flame, you name it. You were
    trying to get something to "talk to it" that wasn't dialup, right?

    I politely asked you if you have a dialup environment, if you went and tested WaZoo, FTS-0001, if you put other mailers through the same scrutiny you're giving mine... no reply to those simple questions, now several messages in?

    How can I help answer the "doesn't work" mantra if you won't "work" with me?

    If you make my software work on whatever you got going on... great. If not, don't be on here going on that it "doesn't work" when you are clearly doing something beyond what I specifically documented.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Deon George on Sat Jun 19 13:45:47 2021
    Has it always worked this way? I can see reading FSC-0056 that it may be interpretted to operate this way (early in the document), but later in
    the "sequence definitions" it shows that each EMSI_* command should be terminated with CR (and references earlier that this is a trigger to
    flush buffers.)

    Well, as far as I can see, there's only one stage (3) where no CR termination is to be used (for obvious reasons).

    In steps 1 and 2, both the Calling and Answering system terminate all
    sequences with <CR>. In step 3, the Calling system does not terminate
    sequences with <CR> as it is explicitly transmitted after possible
    protocol start characters. In step 4, the Calling system once again
    terminate all sequences with a <CR>.

    And you are right. I just checked the source code (the one that some people deny that I have) and there are several parts where DB is doing it all wrong. One part is the CR case that you have found. Impressing! Kudos!

    Then again, I can understand that the present maintainer is reluctant to touch the EMSI code. The DBEMSI.PAS file alone was more than 47kB in November 2005 when he asked me to help him clean up the code (also denied after I did -- albeit not this part).

    If Nick hadn't spread the rumour that I am lying about helping him port the entire code from TP5 to TP7, including removing loads of crazy DOS code, I might help him clean up the EMSI part as well, but as you can understand, that'll not be happening...


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to BjöRn Felten on Sat Jun 19 08:37:29 2021
    On 19 Jun 21 13:45:47, Bj*Rn Felten said the following to Deon George:

    If Nick hadn't spread the rumour that I am lying about helping him port entire code from TP5 to TP7, including removing loads of crazy DOS code, I might help him clean up the EMSI part as well, but as you can understand, that'll not be happening...

    Ahh this again, because you have a compulsive need for attention and Enet.Sysop wasn't enough. For the umpteenth time, your help was never denied but you vanished from planet Earth once we shared some code back n forth. No replies to my emails or Netmail, nor did you ever reach out. I moved on with the impression that you just wanted code; judging from your constant need to post my private emails to boast about what you have... I was right.

    You simply cannot be trusted to even brew a cup of coffee and I just don't
    care to touch code that works. And for what... for one person's desire to
    make a dialup-protocol work in a non-dialup scenario? No thanks, not now.

    Its pretty simple - one of us generally keeps to himself doing tech here and the other whines constantly about America - yet can't stop discussing it.

    Nick
    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)