*** Quoting Michiel van der Vlist from a message to Tommi Koivula ***

MvdV> @OOPS: Yes

MvdV> Better now?

I LOL'ed... :)

Jay

--- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4/mL
* Origin: Northern Realms/TG | bbs.nrbbs.net:2323 (1:229/664.1)

Hi Jay.

20 Jul 20 16:31:28, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

@REPLY: 2:280/5555 5f15f87a
@MSGID: 1:229/664.1 848dd939
@PID: Telegard 3.09.g2-sp4/mL
@TID: FastEcho 1.46.1 7786646
*** Quoting Michiel van der Vlist from a message to Tommi Koivula ***

MvdV>> @OOPS: Yes

MvdV>> Better now?

I LOL'ed... :)

No LOL kludge ...

Jay

'Tommi

---
* Origin: IPv6 Point at [p1.f1.n221.z2.rbb.fidonet.fi] (2:221/1.1)

Hi Mauro.

21 Jul 20 10:21:12, you wrote to me:

Quoting Tommi Koivula to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

On 20.07.2020 18:39, Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

Hello Mauro,

On Monday July 20 2020 10:23, you wrote to Flavio Bessa:

@MSGID: 4:801/194.2 f15a923d
@REPLY: 4:801/188 5f130f24

No REPLY kludge

Right..

Must be the age. :-)

Well, the age of that message is not that much yet...

Also, no AGE kludge. :(

'Tommi

---
* Origin: IPv6 Point at [p1.f1.n221.z2.rbb.fidonet.fi] (2:221/1.1)

Ola Tommi!

** 21.07.20 - 20:02, Tommi Koivula wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hi Mauro.

21 Jul 20 10:21:12, you wrote to me:

Quoting Tommi Koivula to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

On 20.07.2020 18:39, Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

Hello Mauro,

On Monday July 20 2020 10:23, you wrote to Flavio Bessa:

@MSGID: 4:801/194.2 f15a923d
@REPLY: 4:801/188 5f130f24

No REPLY kludge

Right..

Must be the age. :-)

Well, the age of that message is not that much yet...

Also, no AGE kludge. :(

:-D

--- OpenXP 5.0.42
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Hello Michiel!

** On Tuesday 21.07.20 - 17:41, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Mauro Veiga:

... * * * <- Tribbles t t t <- dissected tribbles

MvdV> ^ ^ ^
MvdV> When posting messages without a CHRS kludge, one can not expect
MvdV> non-ASCII characters to be correctly displayed on the screens of the
MvdV> receivers.

Testing reply with copy from original:

"... * * * <- Tribbles ð ð ð <- dissected tribbles"

This looked ok in OXP assuming CP437, and looks ok going out.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello August!

*** Wednesday 22.07.20 at 19:10, August Abolins wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

... * * * <- Tribbles t t t <- dissected tribbles

MvdV> ^ ^ ^
MvdV> When posting messages without a CHRS kludge, one can not expect
MvdV> non-ASCII characters to be correctly displayed on the screens of the MvdV> receivers.

Testing reply with copy from original:

"... * * * <- Tribbles ð ð ð <- dissected tribbles"

This looked ok in OXP assuming CP437, and looks ok going out.

Yep, the original looked just fine here, as does your reply :)

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Hello August Abolins!

22 Jul 20 19:10:00, August Abolins wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

MvdV>> When posting messages without a CHRS kludge, one can not expect
MvdV>> non-ASCII characters to be correctly displayed on the screens of the
MvdV>> receivers.

Testing reply with copy from original:

"... * * * <- Tribbles ≡ ≡ ≡ <- dissected tribbles"

This looked ok in OXP assuming CP437, and looks ok going out.

So it looks OK to you when assuming CP437 is the default. What I see are three characters consisting of three stacked dashes. Looks OK to me too. But /is/ it OK? I don't know, I do not know what a tribble is or what it is supposed to look like, let alone a dissected trible.

However... the author of the original message says it is supposed to be a single dash and that is how it looks like when assuming CP850.

Your assumption that CP437 is the default turns out to be wrong in this case.



Michiel


--- goAtEd-windows/386 1.0.5-154-a1826692
* Origin: (2:280/5555)

Hello Michiel!

** On Thursday 23.07.20 - 08:44, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to August Abolins:

Testing reply with copy from original:

"... * * * <- Tribbles ≡ ≡ ≡ <- dissected tribbles"

This looked ok in OXP assuming CP437, and looks ok going out.

MvdV> So it looks OK to you when assuming CP437 is the default. What I see
MvdV> are three characters consisting of three stacked dashes. Looks OK to me
MvdV> too. But /is/ it OK? I don't know, I do not know what a tribble is or
MvdV> what it is supposed to look like, let alone a dissected trible.

Not familiar with the original StarTrek TV series at all?


MvdV> However... the author of the original message says it is supposed
Mvdv> to be a single dash and that is how it looks like when assuming
MvdV> CP850.

I thought the single dash comment was unusual too. Stacked-dashes just
made more sense based on the tribble joke. And OXP seemed to present alt-
240 just fine.


MvdV> Your assumption that CP437 is the default turns out to be wrong in this
MvdV> case.

In actuality, I can't be sure *what* default codepage OXP is using when *reading* the original incoming message that fails to provide the CHARS kludge. But upon reply, OXP seems to default to CP437 going out.

I didn't even realize that ð (3 stacked dashes) was an available
character. It seems to resemble the hamburger used for adaptive/
reponsive websites as the symbol to activate the main Menu.

The ð char seems to be intented as a math symbol, an area that was not
really my thing using DOS.

I wonder how many of the 3-digit and 4-digit alt-nnnn chars below (from a collection of math symbols which the 3-stacked-dashes is found) will translate properly going out:

Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 48 - 57 0 - 9 zero to nine

Alt Codes for Basic Operators
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 43 + Plus Sign
Alt 45 - Minus Sign
Alt 0215 x Multiplication Sign
Alt 0247 ö Obelus / Division ign

Alt Codes for Pers
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 37 % Percentage Sign
Alt 0137 % Per mille (per thousand)

Alt Codes for Bracketing
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 40 ( Open Bracket
Alt 41 ) Close Bracked

Alt Codes for Degree of Accuracy
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 241 ñ Plus or Minus

Alt Codes for Fractions
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 47 / Fraction seperator
Alt 0188 ¬ Quarter
Alt 0189 « Half
Alt 0190 _ Three quarters <==[does not render in OXP]
Alt 46 . Decimal Point

Alt Codes for Equality
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 240 ð Exactly Identical
Alt 61 = Equals
Alt 247 ÷ Approximately equal

Alt Codes for Inequality
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 60 < Less Than
Alt 62 > Greater Than
Alt 242 ò Greater than or equal
Alt 243 ó Less than or equal

Alt Codes for Powers
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 251 û Square Root
Alt 252 ü Power n
Alt 0185 1 To the power of 1 <==[does not render in OXP]
Alt 0178 ý squared
Alt 0179 3 cubed <==[does not render in OXP]

Angles and Trigonometric Alt Codes
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 227 ã Pi
Alt 248 ø Degree sign

General Mathematical Symbols
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 35 # Number
Alt 236 ì Infinity
Alt 230 æ Micro
Alt 228 ä Sum
Alt 239 ï (Suggest definition)

Integration / Integral Sign
Alt Code Symbol Description
Alt 244 ô Top half
Alt 245 õ Bottom Half


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello Martin!

** On Thursday 23.07.20 - 09:08, Martin Foster wrote to August Abolins:

"... * * * <- Tribbles ð ð ð <- dissected tribbles"

This looked ok in OXP assuming CP437, and looks ok going out.

Yep, the original looked just fine here, as does your reply :)

Alt-240 comes out as a single dash in codepage 850 (which is was the
original poster reported):

chcp

Active code page: 437

ð

'ð' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.

H:\chcp 850
Active code page: 850

-

'-' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.

This tells me, that the original poster didn't get (or see) the tribble
joke properly! LOL



../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello Mauro!

** On Thursday 23.07.20 - 12:07, Mauro Veiga wrote to August Abolins:

This tells me, that the original poster didn't get (or see) the
tribble joke properly! LOL

LOL!
The original post in Bluewave with CP437:

http://pics.rsh.ru/img/screenshot494_mawsuehd.png

Looks like a dissected tribe. But single dash also seem, maybe a
bad legist work. :-DD

OK... Then the ð char looks fine for both of us viewing with readers that default to CP437. But I also recall that your original message arrived
into the echo *without* the CP437 kludge - and thus the alt-240 char translated to something else for other people.

The message I am replying to also lacks the CHARS kludge, btw.


../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello August Abolins!

23 Jul 20 06:58:00, August Abolins wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

Alt 239 ∩ (Suggest definition)

Alt 239 is the Intersection operator in set theorie.



Michiel


--- goAtEd-windows/386 1.0.5-154-a1826692
* Origin: (2:280/5555)

Hello August,

On Thursday July 23 2020 06:58, you wrote to me:

MvdV>> So it looks OK to you when assuming CP437 is the default. What
MvdV>> I see are three characters consisting of three stacked dashes.
MvdV>> Looks OK to me too. But /is/ it OK? I don't know, I do not know
MvdV>> what a tribble is or what it is supposed to look like, let
MvdV>> alone a dissected trible.

Not familiar with the original StarTrek TV series at all?

Sure I know about captain Kirk, Spock, Doc, Scotty, Uhuru, Sulu and Tjechov.

But that was almost half a century ago in what now looks like a totally different life. I didn't see all of it and I certainly do not remember all of it. "Tribble" didn't ring a bell, so I probably missed it or just forgot.

MvdV>> However... the author of the original message says it is supposed
Mvdv>> to be a single dash and that is how it looks like when assuming
MvdV>> CP850.

I thought the single dash comment was unusual too. Stacked-dashes
just made more sense based on the tribble joke.

Wikipedida is your friend, so now I know someting about tribbles. But I stil can't tell if a single or triple dash would is what makes more sense in this case. I just went with what the author of the message says.

And OXP seemed to present alt- 240 just fine.

Is it clearvoyant?

MvdV>> Your assumption that CP437 is the default turns out to be wrong
MvdV>> in this case.

In actuality, I can't be sure *what* default codepage OXP is using
when *reading* the original incoming message that fails to provide
the CHARS kludge.

In Golded it is configurable. Per area. But that is beside the point. The point is that without a CHRS kludge, the software has no way of knowing what encodig scheme was used when writing the message. Determining the encoding from the message itself requires far more inteligence than can be expected from Fidonet software.

The course of action is simple. Use sofwtare that can properly deal with the CHRS kludge, /or/ write using ASCII only.

I wonder how many of the 3-digit and 4-digit alt-nnnn chars below
(from a collection of math symbols which the 3-stacked-dashes is
found) will translate properly going out:

The math characters in DOS CP 437 are not al that usefull for a mathematician as the set it far to limited.

Other than that: you mention 3 and 4 digit alt-N charcters, but the 3 and 4 sequences can not be used in one and the same message. The 3 digit sequences are DOS characters. Which ones depends on the active code page. The 4 digit sequences are Windows characters. Which ones is also dependant on the OS setting. You can have both in the windows command line because Windows (from Win2000 onwards IIRC) uses Unicode internally. Typing Alt 0128 on my command line gets me the Euro sign.

You can even have alt [hex nuumber] sequences to get all unicode characters on the screen but that is not enabled by default. I wrote a Fidonews article about that. Feel free to look it up.

Alt 0190 _ Three quarters <==[does not render in OXP]

Of course not. When OXP is configured to use CP437 it can not display the 3/4 because there is no glyph for 3/4 in CP437. There is a glyph for 3/4 in the Windows char sets (in my case AKA CP1252) but to disply that you may have to configure OXP for CP1252. That may or may not be possible.

Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: ZC1 certified techno-dick (2:280/5555)

Ola August!

** 23.07.20 - 18:01, August Abolins wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hello Mauro!

Looks like a dissected tribe. But single dash also seem, maybe a
bad legist work. :-DD

OK... Then the ð char looks fine for both of us viewing with readers that default to CP437. But I also recall that your original message arrived
into the echo *without* the CP437 kludge - and thus the alt-240 char translated to something else for other people.

The message I am replying to also lacks the CHARS kludge, btw.

Yes, i know that.


[]'s

--- OpenXP 5.0.42
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Hello Mauro,

On Friday July 24 2020 09:20, you wrote to August Abolins:

@MSGID: 4:801/194.1@fidonet e6b88ad6
@REPLY: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e6b57c86
@PID: OpenXP/5.0.42 (Win32)
@CHRS: IBMPC 2

Now you have a CHRS kludge but IBMPC is obsolete. It used the mean the original IBM PC character set, later known as CP437, but it evolved to mean ANY IBM Code page.

See http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5003.001

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring CP437. Ask August, he already did it.


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: ZC1 certified techno-dick (2:280/5555)

Ola Michiel!

** 24.07.20 - 16:10, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hello Mauro,

On Friday July 24 2020 09:20, you wrote to August Abolins:

@MSGID: 4:801/194.1@fidonet e6b88ad6
@REPLY: 2:221/1.58@fidonet e6b57c86
@PID: OpenXP/5.0.42 (Win32)
@CHRS: IBMPC 2

Now you have a CHRS kludge but IBMPC is obsolete. It used the mean the original IBM PC character set, later known as CP437, but it evolved to
mean ANY IBM Code page.

See http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5003.001

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring CP437. Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

--- OpenXP 5.0.42
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Hello Mauro,

On Friday July 24 2020 16:04, you wrote to me:

Now you have a CHRS kludge but IBMPC is obsolete. It used the mean
the original IBM PC character set, later known as CP437, but it
evolved to mean ANY IBM Code page.

See http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5003.001

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring
CP437. Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

August uses 5.0.45...


Cheers, Michiel

--- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: ZC1 certified techno-dick (2:280/5555)

On 24.07.2020 16:04, Mauro Veiga wrote:

@PID: OpenXP/5.0.42 (Win32)

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring CP437. Ask >> August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/

5.0.45 :)

'Tommi

---
* Origin: rbb soupgate, the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/1.11)

Hello Michiel!

*** Friday 24.07.20 at 23:19, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Now you have a CHRS kludge but IBMPC is obsolete. It used the mean
the original IBM PC character set, later known as CP437, but it
evolved to mean ANY IBM Code page.

See http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5003.001

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring
CP437. Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

MvdV> August uses 5.0.45...

Yeah, so do I but 5.0.45 is not the current release version, 5.0.42 is. 5.0.45 is a public development build which contains the Win32 executable
only and is available from the project page on SourceForge.

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Hello Tommi!

*** Saturday 25.07.20 at 09:04, tommi # rbb.fidonet.fi wrote to Mauro Veiga:

@PID: OpenXP/5.0.42 (Win32)

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring CP437.
Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/

5.0.45 :)

Yep, see my previous post :)

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Ola Michiel!

** 24.07.20 - 23:19, Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hello Mauro,

On Friday July 24 2020 16:04, you wrote to me:

Now you have a CHRS kludge but IBMPC is obsolete. It used the mean
the original IBM PC character set, later known as CP437, but it
evolved to mean ANY IBM Code page.

See http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-5003.001

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring
CP437. Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

August uses 5.0.45...

https://openxp.uk/win32/
They haven't updated the site yet. I'll search on Sourceforge.


[]'s
|
---------------- telnet://abutre.no-ip.org:2323 ----------- * ------
|


--- OpenXP 5.0.42
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Ola Tommi!

** 25.07.20 - 09:04, tommi # rbb.fidonet.fi wrote to Mauro Veiga:

On 24.07.2020 16:04, Mauro Veiga wrote:

@PID: OpenXP/5.0.42 (Win32)

Install the latest vesrion of OpenXP, it allows for configuring CP437.
Ask August, he already did it.

I'm using the latest version - 5.0.42.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/

5.0.45 :)

Thanks, Tommi.
Need to update http://openxp.kolico.ca/


[]'s
|
---------------- telnet://abutre.no-ip.org:2323 ----------- * ------
|


--- OpenXP 5.0.42
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Hello Mauro!

*** Saturday 25.07.20 at 09:14, Mauro Veiga wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

[snip]

August uses 5.0.45...

https://openxp.uk/win32/
They haven't updated the site yet.

It won't be updated either because development builds are never made available for download from that site.

I'll search on Sourceforge.

You need to get 'openxp_5.0.45_win32_exe.zip' from here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/files/Service/

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Ola Martin!

** 26.07.20 - 10:09, Martin Foster wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hello Mauro!

*** Saturday 25.07.20 at 09:14, Mauro Veiga wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

[snip]

August uses 5.0.45...

https://openxp.uk/win32/
They haven't updated the site yet.

It won't be updated either because development builds are never made available for download from that site.

I'll search on Sourceforge.

You need to get 'openxp_5.0.45_win32_exe.zip' from here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/files/Service/

Done.

Thanks, Martin.

[]'s
|
---------------- telnet://abutre.no-ip.org:2323 ----------- * ------
|


--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)

Hello Mauro!

** On Sunday 26.07.20 - 09:09, Mauro Veiga wrote to Martin Foster:

You need to get 'openxp_5.0.45_win32_exe.zip' from here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/files/Service/

Done.

MAILER: OpenXP/5.0.45 (Win32) / OpenXP 5.0.45

Woohoo! To celebrate, here is a dissected trible: ð




../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: This is a test of the Emergency Tagline System (2:221/1.58)

Hello Mauro!

*** Sunday 26.07.20 at 09:09, Mauro Veiga wrote to Martin Foster:

[snip]

I'll search on Sourceforge.

You need to get 'openxp_5.0.45_win32_exe.zip' from here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/files/Service/

Done.

Excellent!

Thanks, Martin.

You're welcome.

Regards,
Martin

--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Bitz-Box - Bradford - UK (2:310/31.3)

Ola August!

** 26.07.20 - 19:39, August Abolins wrote to Mauro Veiga:

Hello Mauro!

** On Sunday 26.07.20 - 09:09, Mauro Veiga wrote to Martin Foster:

You need to get 'openxp_5.0.45_win32_exe.zip' from here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/openxp5/files/Service/

Done.

MAILER: OpenXP/5.0.45 (Win32) / OpenXP 5.0.45

Woohoo! To celebrate, here is a dissected trible: ð

LOL!

Interesting. On Bluewave reading a qwk package from BBS show the three
lines, but here show a hyphen or minus character. Codepages are a very
crazy thing. But funny. %-D


[]'s
|
---------------- telnet://abutre.no-ip.org:2323 ----------- * ------
|


--- OpenXP 5.0.45
* Origin: Point da Coruja - Brasil * (4:801/194.1)