Hello Everybody,

In the USA it is customary to tip the waiter/waitress
at a dining establishment. Unless one is dining at a fast
food joint, where no tipping is allowed. Especially when
one gets their food from the drive-in window.

Now, one might think that waiters and waitresses do not
need the tips, as all workers receive a federally mandated
minimum wage, currently $7.25 for most folks. However, the
minimum for waiters/waitresses is far less, at $2.13/hour.
And whatever tips they do receive must be shared with all
the other waiters/waitresses, along with the dishwasher
and janitor and other kitchen help.

That is not much to live on.

So why not abolish tipping altogether in favor of better
wages? Or even better, do like Sweden and have no federally
mandated minimum wage at all?

Just think of what life would be like if folks could dine
out and never have to pay for the service they get. Now if
only the chef would comply we could all have a free lunch.

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True
--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 15/07/2021 08:16, 2203/2 wrote:
[..]

So why not abolish tipping altogether in favor of better
wages? Or even better, do like Sweden and have no federally
mandated minimum wage at all?

Just think of what life would be like if folks could dine
out and never have to pay for the service they get. Now if
only the chef would comply we could all have a free lunch.

Tipping is not customary in this country either. The price of the meal, charged by the dining establishment, includes the service/processes behind preparing the meal and cleaning up afterwards.

The minimum wage here is somewhat more than you quoted above.

Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take up the waiting profession.

--
Regards
David

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Re: Tipping Customs
By: David Drummond to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jul 15 2021 09:12 am

Howdy,

Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take up the waiting profession.

I, in my youthful days, worked in Canada as a waiter which has a similar custom to the US of tipping in a restaurant.

I made more money that I had ever made, and worked the least hours that I had ever worked (at that time in my life).. It was good money.

I too had to pay a percentage of my gross sales (whether I was tipped or not) that went into a pool for the other staff in the restaurant. Admittedly it was a small amount (<5% if I recall), and I earnt ~25-30% less per hour than the other restaurant staff. IIRC, I was on about $5/hr, and the bussies where on $7.5/hr - this was 1990 or so.

The cocktail bar waitresses made even more in tips (2-3x that I made) and earnt even less I think by the establishment, and they too had to pay a percentage of their gross sales to the bar staff.

Tipping does drive a behaviour in a restaurant though. As an Aussie, I would avoid serving tables with other Aussies/Kiwis or Brits, since it is not their custom to tip and some actively refuse to.

...ëîåï

... I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
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by the dining establishment, includes the service/processes behind preparing the meal and cleaning up afterwards.
The minimum wage here is somewhat more than you quoted above.
Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take
up the waiting profession.

Because the reason they get away with it is because they claim that
their tips + hourly income equals that of minimum wage. If tey don't make
the amount equal to minimum wage, they have to keep records of their tips,
and report it on their taxes. but in either case, the reason they think they make more than minimum wage is because of their large breast, skimpy uniform, and flirting. Likewise, its also why they usually receive little to no tip from married men.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
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I never tip customs ...
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

David Drummond wrote to Lee Lofaso <=-

Makes me wonder why anyone in a country as developed as USA would take
up the waiting profession.

Now, after the lockdown, they're not.

Maye $2.13/hour plus tips, no medical benefits, no time off, inconsistent schedule, or work at a Starbucks for $14-16/hour, paid tuition assistance, optional medical benefits and a relatively fixed weekly schedule?

No wonder restaurants are finding it hard to hire staff back at the status quo?

I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living
wage, and abolish tipping. I'd expect most people to just look at the price
on the menu and not think it through to the tip. Then, there are those who don't tip feeling like it's their right to underpay. :)


... The city devours the land, the people devour the city...
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I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living wage, and abolish tipping.

Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well ...

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On 16/07/2021 00:08, 1218/700 wrote:
[..]

I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living wage, and abolish tipping. I'd expect most people to just look at the price
on the menu and not think it through to the tip. Then, there are those who don't tip feeling like it's their right to underpay.  :)

It's not that I fail to tip because I have a "right to underpay", more that I feel that the employer does not have a right to underpay.

We have what we call "backpackers" here. Itinerant, usually younger persons working as agricultural workers, picking fruit etc. They are almost always foreign kids.

With COVID there are hardly any backpackers around for the crops to be harvested, the farmers are moaning (I live in an agricultural area).

This area also has a high unemployment situation amoung locals. None of the locals want to work for the farmers however as the wages are shit - less than a local can get from the unemployment benefits offered by Social Security.

The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they can offer less than the official minimum wage...

--
Regards
David

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* Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)

On 16/07/2021 00:36, 2292/854 wrote:

I'd love seeing a restaurant raise their prices by 10-15%, pay a living
wage, and abolish tipping.

Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well ...

Do you tip all people who perform a service for you? Are none of them paid by their employer to perform that service? If not, what are they employed to do?

--
Regards
David

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* Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)

On Jul 16, 2021 01:25pm, David Drummond wrote to Kurt Weiske:

Hi David,

The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they can offer less than the official minimum wage...

According to my Irish barber who stays in a share house with backpackers who do fruit picking in the Cairns area, they are paid on volume picked not a
wage, the good ones make over 2k a week clear.

Terry

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
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Correct. Until that happens I treat my waiters and waitresses well

...

Do you tip all people who perform a service for you? Are none of them
paid by their employer to perform that service? If not, what are they employed to do?

Let me expand on that ... in the USA I treat my waiters and waitresses well ... out here they are protected by social legislation and get:

1. Decent wages
2. Healh insurance
3. Retirment benefit/pension plan

Restaurant bills here get a mandatory 17% tip included which goes to all the staff untaxed as well as a 21% VAT. Meaning 38% of the bill is not food-related.

In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from which they can live.

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Ward Dossche wrote to David Drummond <=-

In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from
which they can live.

Now, to clarify, some people make respectable incomes through tips. I've
known waiters who've earned incomes that made me envious. It's hard work.

Hustle in an expensive restaurant and you'll do well. The down side is the mom-n-pop diner, greasy spoon, neighborhood ethnic restaurant, etc. Work as hard and receive a fraction of the waiter at a high-end restaurant.

I'd rather see a living wage and benefits for wait staff, but a) restauranteurs don't want to see change happen that costs them more, and b) people here are fine with raising the standard of living for all, as long as it doesn't cost them any more.




... Only one element of each kind
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On 16/07/2021 14:08, 2292/854 wrote:

[...]

In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from which they can live.

As they do here ... well, except for the foreign backpackers doing agricultural work. I guess they don't count, they can just piss off back to where they came from if they don't like it.

Australia has legalised slavery!

--
Regards
David

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On 16/07/2021 15:01, 3640/1321 wrote:

 DD>> The farmers are offering less than a living wage. I'm not sure how they
 DD>> can offer less than the official minimum wage...

 According to my Irish barber who stays in a share house with backpackers who
do fruit picking in the Cairns area, they are paid on volume picked not a wage, the good ones make over 2k a week clear.

I wonder why the situation isn't the same in the Bundaberg/Childers areas... the locals don;t want to do the work due to poor wages.

--
Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)

On Jul 17, 2021 10:39am, David Drummond wrote to Terry Roati:

I wonder why the situation isn't the same in the Bundaberg/Childers areas... the locals don;t want to do the work due to poor wages.

Locals here also don't want to do the hard work as they probably get enough from job seeker and jobs they do for cash. It probably depends on the crop
they picking for on how much they are paid, here it was for bananas.

In NQ there has been a lot of agricultural work done by contract since early last century, the Italians came here to cut cane and worked hard and made big money and ended up buying the cane farms.

There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can download from one of the QLD unis.

Terry

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
* Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)

There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can
download from one of the QLD unis.

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On Jul 17, 2021 11:13am, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

It's a pdf, so you could print it or just read the little bit about the Roati family :)

Terry

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
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If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

It's a pdf, so you could print it or just read the little bit about the Roati family :)

Let me recite from the New Testament according to Rice and Webber:

"I only want to say
If there is a way
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison"

:-)

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On Jul 17, 2021 12:25pm, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

"I only want to say
If there is a way
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison"

What is more concerning is what is not written :)

Terry

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
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"I only want to say
If there is a way
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison"

What is more concerning is what is not written :)

Do I feel the juicy part coming?

Shed the burden of the years Terry, educate us ... :-)

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

just read the little bit about the Roati
family

What pages would that be? I only found one occurrence of Roati (on page 161). Well, actually two if you count the index...


..
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* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Ward Dossche wrote to David Drummond <=-

In my country I feel no need to tip, people get paid salaries from
which they can live.

Now, to clarify, some people make respectable incomes through tips. I've
known waiters who've earned incomes that made me envious. It's hard work.

Hustle in an expensive restaurant and you'll do well. The down side is the mom-n-pop diner, greasy spoon, neighborhood ethnic restaurant, etc. Work as hard and receive a fraction of the waiter at a high-end restaurant.

I'd rather see a living wage and benefits for wait staff, but a) restauranteurs don't want to see change happen that costs them more, and b) people here are fine with raising the standard of living for all, as long as it doesn't cost them any more.




... Only one element of each kind
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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On 17/07/2021 11:13, 2292/854 wrote:

There is an interesting book called "From Italy to Ingham" you can
download from one of the QLD unis.

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

Save the rainforests - ban paper.

--
Regards
David
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* Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

Save the rainforests - ban paper.

Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

On Jul 17, 2021 01:45pm, Ward Dossche wrote to Terry Roati:

Do I feel the juicy part coming?

Shed the burden of the years Terry, educate us ... :-)

Only hearsay at this time but it would be nice to be able to confirm the stories I recently heard, still trying to research.

Terry

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On Jul 17, 2021 03:48pm, Bj”rn Felten wrote to Terry Roati:

just read the little bit about the Roati
family

What pages would that be? I only found one occurrence of Roati (on
page 161). Well, actually two if you count the index...

I did say little, the book is more about how the Italians came to Australia
and settled, North Queensland has a large population of Italians with Ingham being the most famous as it has an Italian festival every year which is very popular.

The other famous thing about Ingham is a song "Pub with no beer" which is
based on a ringer (cowboy) who rode into town to have a few beers during the second world war but the American soldiers beat him and drank the town dry.

Terry

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On 17/07/2021 23:42, 2292/854 wrote:

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

Save the rainforests - ban  paper.

Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

Do they grow much plantation timber in Brazil?


--
Regards
David
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbi
* Origin: Bucca, QLD (3:640/305)

If it's not on paper, I'm not reading it ...

Save the rainforests - ban  paper.

Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

Do they grow much plantation timber in Brazil?

Rainforest wood is not used in paper production...

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello, Ward!

Saturday July 17 2021 23:42, you wrote to David Drummond:

Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper production in big numbers.
But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

Best regards,
dp.
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On 21/07/2021 10:26, Dmitry Protasoff : Ward Dossche wrote:

 WD>> Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper production in big numbers.
But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

When I was working, the paper we used came from Brazil. The packaging didn't say what trees it was made of.

--
Regards
David

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Dmitry,

Rainforests have got nothing to do with paper.

BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
production in big numbers.
But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

I respectfully disagree. That is not the situation "now".

Using tropical hard wood for paper is ridiculous, way too valuable. Most of that went to Japan into construction and furniture. I'm also talking "today", not 1973.

The planting of sustainable forrests is now common business. The days that several square miles of forrest were milled just for one single week-end edition of the New York Times are history.

There is a lot of grey matter and reading up on what CITES has to say (Convention on International Trade in Edangered Species) as well as IUCN (International Union for the Conservation of Nature) is very inspiring.

A lot of the tropical woods are now on one of the 3 CITES-lists and very difficult to trade ... unless harvested in portions of Russia because it stays in the same country.

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 12 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

Hello, David!

Wednesday July 21 2021 16:49, you wrote to me:

BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
production in big numbers.
But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

When I was working, the paper we used came from Brazil. The packaging didn't say what trees it was made of.

Suzano (largest paper producer in Brazil) is actually not very evil. But deforestation in Brazil is mostly process of cutting tress to free more land for pasture.


Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
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Hello, Ward!

Wednesday July 21 2021 12:12, you wrote to me:

BTW, you are wrong. Sumatra's rainforests were cut for the paper
production in big numbers.
But Indonesia is not very popular in EU.

I respectfully disagree. That is not the situation "now".

Using tropical hard wood for paper is ridiculous, way too valuable.
Most of that went to Japan into construction and furniture. I'm also talking "today", not 1973.

And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more valuable than paper?
This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge one.
And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

The planting of sustainable forrests is now common business. The days
that several square miles of forrest were milled just for one single week-end edition of the New York Times are history.

In Sumatra? Not really.

Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more valuable than paper?
This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge one.
And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

Thank you for responding but I've been through this subject at least a dozen times, so this time I'll gracefully bow out. What needed to be said, has already been said, it is not something new.

I rather think you are not really aware what CITES and IUCN are.

If you want to talk about tropical forrest which are cut, I suggest you start dealing with the cutting and milling of that wood "in" Russia, for consumption "in" Russia, without any concern for whatever international treaty.

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 07 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ward!

Monday July 26 2021 12:19, you wrote to me:

And what about cutting trees to produce more meat? Is meat more
valuable than paper? This is really a problem in Brazil, very huge
one. And I don't really think that EU can do much about that.

Thank you for responding but I've been through this subject at least a dozen times, so this time I'll gracefully bow out. What needed to be
said, has already been said, it is not something new.

I cannot be held responsible for your discussions with someone else ;)

I rather think you are not really aware what CITES and IUCN are.

I know but it doesn't make much sense for this discussion.
For many years EU was one of the main drivers for deforestation in Brazil, but once it decided to push major players into more eco-friendly way of doing things - other guys stepped into this game which is still played and you cannot deny that.
Descreased EU exports? China is ready to replace EU. And it doesn't care much that eco-business.
And it's already largest importer of Brazil's meat.

What EU can do about that?

If you want to talk about tropical forrest which are cut, I suggest
you start dealing with the cutting and milling of that wood "in"
Russia, for consumption "in" Russia, without any concern for whatever international treaty.

Our main trade partner for wood is China. This is who is paying now for our deforestation.
Probably you know that protesting in Russia against almost anything - is a risk. Big risk with possible consequences of large fines, jail terms and police torture.
People who are protesting against forects cuts know those facts very good ;)

And Germany (largest player in EU) is a very big friend of Putin's regime, paying it with hard currency for our gas and arguing with USA that this a right way of realpolitik :)
Since we can always buy some german's politicians (like former kanzler Gerhard Schroder working in Rosneft for many years) - China will get as much our wood as it wants.



Best regards,
dp.
--- GoldED+/W64-MSVC 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: No rest for the wicked (2:5001/100.1)

Dmitry,

I cannot be held responsible for your discussions with someone else ;)

:-)

For many years EU was one of the main drivers for deforestation in
Brazil, .....

A date please ... before 1980? Earlier even?

much that eco-business.
And it's already largest importer of Brazil's meat.

I would say Japan is ...

What EU can do about that?

Write a strongly worded letter ... that'll teach'm...

Probably you know that protesting in Russia against almost anything - is
a risk.

So we've heard ... that's what happens if only specific people make it to ballot.

And Germany (largest player in EU) is a very big friend of Putin's
regime, paying it with hard currency for our gas and arguing with USA
that this a right way of realpolitik :)

Alas ... not just Germany ...

BTW, your beer sucks.

\%/@rd
--- DB4 - Jul 07 2021
* Origin: Hou het veilig, hou vol. Het komt allemaal weer goed (2:292/854)

*** Answering a msg posted in area carbonArea (Carbon Area).

Hello, Ward!

Monday July 26 2021 20:17, you wrote to me:

For many years EU was one of the main drivers for deforestation in
Brazil, .....

A date please ... before 1980? Earlier even?

Before 2006.
It's not my idea, I've got sources and links :)

Probably you know that protesting in Russia against almost
anything - is a risk.

So we've heard ... that's what happens if only specific people make it
to ballot.

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything"(c)Stalin (or at least he thought so :) ).

And Germany (largest player in EU) is a very big friend of Putin's
regime, paying it with hard currency for our gas and arguing with
USA that this a right way of realpolitik :)

Alas ... not just Germany ...

BTW, your beer sucks.

Yeah, InBev bought a lot of local breweries and now they all sux the same way. It's a funny thing that company from Belgium (country with greatest beer in the world) made so much evil to beer producers around the globe!



Best regards,
dp.
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