• Banned

    From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Sat Jun 27 19:10:27 2020
    Hello Everybody,

    The Czech Republic has banned me and Bj”rn from travelling
    to their country. Along with folks from Portugal and part of
    Poland. All due to COVID-19. We are just too sick to travel,
    and nobody wants to pick up the Czech.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sat Jun 27 20:41:34 2020
    The Czech Republic has banned me and Bj”rn from travelling
    to their country.

    No worries, mate. Us Swedes are banned from a lot of countries, even our neighbouring. Countries that do not understand that eventually they will have surpassed the Swedish death toll.

    Heil to the Bunker Boy and his theories!


    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 28 02:19:25 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    The Czech Republic has banned me and Bj”rn from travelling
    to their country.

    No worries, mate. Us Swedes are banned from a lot of countries, even our neighbouring. Countries that do not understand that eventually they will have surpassed the Swedish death toll.

    I've got to look up the criteria that is being used by the EU
    to come up with its "safe list", as the US, Brazil, and Russia
    are not on it.

    We have 50 states within the USA, each with its own criteria.
    And now some states are coming up with their own "safe lists",
    blocking folks from those cited states from visiting. With
    nobody knowing which states they can, and cannot, visit then
    it begins to become a real problem. Meaning I could wind up
    getting stranded away from home, never being able to return.
    Or stranded where I am and not being able to go anywhere.

    Heil to the Bunker Boy and his theories!

    At least he has a bunker to go to. For now.

    --Lee

    --
    Make 7-Up Yours

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Jun 28 05:31:33 2020
    Meaning I could wind up
    getting stranded away from home, never being able to return.
    Or stranded where I am and not being able to go anywhere.

    But surely only for 14 days, no?



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 28 11:07:43 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Meaning I could wind up
    getting stranded away from home, never being able to return.
    Or stranded where I am and not being able to go anywhere.

    But surely only for 14 days, no?

    The governor keeps extending it - by 28 days.

    --Lee

    --
    Impossible is nothing

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Jun 28 17:28:32 2020
    But surely only for 14 days, no?

    The governor keeps extending it - by 28 days.

    Ah yes, of course. The US politicians are not particularly in par with your scientists?



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Jun 28 22:47:47 2020
    At least he has a bunker to go to. For now.

    Yes. And he's got a lot of military hardware to protect him there down in the bunker that he only visits for inspection?

    But how does he explain how the US people, who now is indebted at $80k each -- babies all the way to 100yo alike? How many years will it take for USA to repay such a humongous debt?

    It's not only your grandchildren that you have indebted, it's at least half a dozen generations more. Sigh. What a mess your FED is creating. But at least the 0.1% richest will stay cleared. The American Dream...




    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 29 00:46:03 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    But surely only for 14 days, no?

    The governor keeps extending it - by 28 days.

    Ah yes, of course. The US politicians are not particularly in par with
    your
    scientists?

    Yeah. We the people get a double dose of their own medicine.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Sun Jun 28 20:39:00 2020
    Bj”rn Felten wrote to Lee Lofaso <=-

    At least he has a bunker to go to. For now.

    Yes. And he's got a lot of military hardware to protect him

    <SNIP>

    This is one of the longer conversations you've had with yourself.

    What makes you think either one of you knows anything about USA
    life / politics? Why are you so obsessed with a topic on a
    country that you don't even live in?

    Free clue: What the media feeds you is not accurate.


    ... Reality failure. Press Enter to continuum.
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Mon Jun 29 03:58:02 2020
    This is one of the longer conversations you've had with yourself.

    You *do* know, that almost all of us understand that you are a Trumpster, don't you?

    Nobody with an above 70 IQ could pursue such a stupid conspiracy theory like yours here -- ergo, you're a Trumpster, yes?




    ..

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  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Dan Clough on Sun Jun 28 22:00:19 2020
    On 28 Jun 20 20:39:00, Dan Clough said the following to Bj*Rn Felten:

    What makes you think either one of you knows anything about USA
    life / politics? Why are you so obsessed with a topic on a
    country that you don't even live in?

    Because that pathetic alcoholic crybaby widower needs to keep running the "stupid American" gimmick to feel some sort of relevance here, until he ultimately makes his grand departure (taking Lee with him).

    If he didn't have the gimmick, he'd just have Abba.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 29 04:44:39 2020
    No worries, mate. Us Swedes are banned from a lot of countries, even
    our neighbouring. Countries that do not understand that eventually they will have surpassed the Swedish death toll.

    You're still fighting unfinished warz originating in the 15th 16th 17th centuries somewhat.

    Time to refloat the Vasa.

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - May 18 2020
    * Origin: Black Olives Matter (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dan Clough on Mon Jun 29 04:48:28 2020
    Free clue: What the media feeds you is not accurate.

    What? It's even worse than that ?

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - May 18 2020
    * Origin: Black Olives Matter (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Lee Lofaso on Mon Jun 29 05:07:23 2020
    The Czech Republic has banned me and Bj”rn from travelling
    to their country. Along with folks from Portugal and part of
    Poland. All due to COVID-19. We are just too sick to travel,
    and nobody wants to pick up the Czech.

    Citizens of the USA not holding appropriate documentation will continue to be banned from travelling to the whole of the EU until January 1st due to the extreme bad handling of the Covid19 pandemic and the USA not being able to contain it. That situation will be reviewed every 2 weeks.

    Why are we not surprized?

    \%/@rd

    --- DB4 - May 18 2020
    * Origin: Black Olives Matter (2:292/854)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 29 11:04:39 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    This is one of the longer conversations you've had with yourself.

    You *do* know, that almost all of us understand that you are a Trumpster, don't you?

    Nobody with an above 70 IQ could pursue such a stupid conspiracy theory
    like
    yours here -- ergo, you're a Trumpster, yes?

    Careful. He/she could be a Trumpette.

    --Lee

    --
    I think they bought a Jeep

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Mon Jun 29 08:10:00 2020
    Bj*rn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    This is one of the longer conversations you've had with yourself.

    Nobody with an above 70 IQ could pursue such a stupid
    conspiracy theory like yours here -- ergo, you're a Trumpster,
    yes?

    Your "logic" is even worse than your understanding of the USA.

    Pathetic and weak.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Nick Andre on Mon Jun 29 08:12:00 2020
    Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    What makes you think either one of you knows anything about USA
    life / politics? Why are you so obsessed with a topic on a
    country that you don't even live in?

    Because that pathetic alcoholic crybaby widower needs to keep
    running the "stupid American" gimmick to feel some sort of
    relevance here, until he ultimately makes his grand departure
    (taking Lee with him).

    Ahhh, alcoholic. Didn't know that, but it explains a lot.

    I suspect the "small penis syndrome" is also at work here.

    If he didn't have the gimmick, he'd just have Abba.

    Heh.


    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 29 08:16:00 2020
    Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Free clue: What the media feeds you is not accurate.

    What? It's even worse than that ?

    It's not a matter of "worse" or "better".

    It's a matter of "factual information" (which Bj*rn doesn't have),
    versus "media-sponsored liberal-agenda propaganda" (which is what
    Bj*rn does have).

    Hope that helps.


    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Dan Clough on Mon Jun 29 11:59:24 2020
    Re: Re: The US economy
    By: Dan Clough to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 29 2020 08:16:00


    "media-sponsored liberal-agenda propaganda"

    is that better, worse, or the same as "media-sponsored conservative-agenda propganda"? ;)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Mon Jun 29 22:44:24 2020
    Careful. He/she could be a Trumpette.

    Doubtful. Trump seems to appeal mainly to middle aged white male with a below college education.



    ..

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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to mark lewis on Mon Jun 29 21:43:00 2020
    mark lewis wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Re: Re: The US economy
    By: Dan Clough to Ward Dossche on Mon Jun 29 2020 08:16:00

    "media-sponsored liberal-agenda propaganda"

    is that better, worse, or the same as "media-sponsored
    conservative-agenda propganda"? ;)

    Well, I'd say it's worse. Others may feel differently. ;)

    But in reality, there *IS* no "media-sponsored conservative-agenda propaganda". I know, some may argue that Fox News provides such a
    thing, but even if that's true (it might not be), that is *ONE* channel/outlet. EVERY SINGLE OTHER one is so completely skewed to
    the left that they don't even try to hide it any more.



    ... Looks like I picked a bad week to quit drinkin'.
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Tue Jun 30 07:05:46 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Careful. He/she could be a Trumpette.

    Doubtful. Trump seems to appeal mainly to middle aged white male with a below college education.

    Old white guys.

    According to the polls, he is even losing it to those guys, who
    claim to be voting for Biden by over a 10-point margin.

    Who is there left? His idiot children? His trophy wife who lives
    with her parents and her son far away from the White House?

    No wonder the man has taken to Twitter. Seems to me to be his
    only friend. And I am not sure how long that friend will remain
    his friend.

    --Lee

    --
    Hands too small! Can't build a wall!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Tue Jun 30 14:12:14 2020
    No wonder the man has taken to Twitter. Seems to me to be his
    only friend. And I am not sure how long that friend will remain
    his friend.

    The major question the outside world (not dominated by the US media conglomerate) is asking is: how in heavens name can a country as big as the USA so easily be conquered by Russia?

    How can it be so easy to install an imbecile as POTUS, an idiot that time and time again tell the world how much he loves Putin and hates US intelligence. An imbecile that can't even read English, so he has to get his daily briefings in comic book style.

    This is really an interesting -- but unfortunately extremely scary -- reality show. :(



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Tue Jun 30 21:19:25 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    No wonder the man has taken to Twitter. Seems to me to be his
    only friend. And I am not sure how long that friend will remain
    his friend.

    The major question the outside world (not dominated by the US media conglomerate) is asking is: how in heavens name can a country as big as
    the
    USA so easily be conquered by Russia?

    Okay, I be serious.

    Russian mobsters. Trump does not care about anything but himself.
    And money. You and others can say and write anything you want about
    him and what he has done or does. No matter how disgusting, insulting,
    or whatever. He doesn't give a whit about what others flame him about.
    Except money.

    How can it be so easy to install an imbecile as POTUS, an idiot that time and time again tell the world how much he loves Putin and hates US intelligence. An imbecile that can't even read English, so he has to get his daily briefings in comic book style.

    Donald Trump learned everything from his father, Fred Trump.
    Like his father, Donald Trump was broke. But he definitely understood
    the art of the deal. As taught by his father, Fred. It worked kind of
    like this - rob Peter to pay Paul. Keep it up and hope you never have
    to pay the piper.

    That is how Fred Trump ran his real estate empire.
    That is how Donald Trump ran his real estate empire.

    Needing, or wanting, more money to play with, Donald Trump
    expanded his product line of real estate to include reality
    television, with himself being the main star.

    The whole thing was a con job.

    A confidence man always gives his intended target (audience)
    what they want. Once he gains their trust, he can do anything
    and everything he wants.

    Doesn't have to make sense. His followers believe him, and
    will literally walk over a cliff if he told them to do so.

    Ask yourself how do you expose a con man to an audience that
    has been brainwashed to believe every word he says?

    You have to show them. Show them in such a way that they cannot
    deny what they see before their very eyes. And they will have a
    difficult time believing what they see is real. For many, they
    will still refuse to believe he can be anything but what he says.

    For these True Believers, you can hit them on the head with
    a two by four all day long and they will still believe Trump
    is always right.

    Russian mobsters loaned him money to keep his empire afloat.
    Now those Russian mobsters are collecting what they are owed.

    This is really an interesting -- but unfortunately extremely scary -- reality show. :(

    It ain't over yet. Despite being way behind in every poll that
    matters, he still has one card yet to play. I call it the Trump
    card. He will play it, but not yet. When he does, everybody in
    the entire world will know it.

    The Congress gave him the authority to play this card in 2006.
    It will make him, in effect, the dictator he has always wanted
    to be.

    Martial Law. Donald Trump would have legal authority to use US
    troops (including National Guard in all states without needing
    consent of state governors).

    Not even the Congress would have authority to question him.
    And the justices of the US Supreme Court could not stop him.
    Donald Trump would be a true dictator.

    Is that scary enough for you?

    Oh. One more thing. The EU has just banned Americans from
    travelling to Europe. When Trump becomes dictator - probably
    about two months from now - I might have to take my pirogue
    out of storage and hide in the swamps.

    --Lee

    --
    Show me what democracy looks like! / This is what demcracy looks like!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Tue Jun 30 21:31:12 2020
    Is that scary enough for you?

    You have such a nice way to explain things, thank you muchly.

    Now all I'd like to know is how long your Feds can manage to prop up the stock exchange before it all collapses. After all, there must be a limit even of how much money they can print?



    ..

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wed Jul 1 01:35:37 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Is that scary enough for you?

    You have such a nice way to explain things, thank you muchly.

    Anytime.

    Now all I'd like to know is how long your Feds can manage to prop up the stock exchange before it all collapses.

    Junk bonds. The Federal Reserve is buying junk bonds and corporate
    debt ETFs in order to revive the American ecnomony. That is what it
    has been doing since the pandemic began.

    After all, there must be a limit even of how much money they can print?

    Fiat money. Scrip. Not real currency at all.

    Since the pandemic began the Fed has acted as a server of
    emergency lending programs, making purchases of Treasuries
    and mortgage bonds, among other things. The goal is to make
    sure companies and households have access to all the credit
    they could ever need or want, as credit is the lifeblood
    of the economy.

    After the events of 9-11, GWB stood between two gigantic
    firemen at the base of what used to be the WTC Twin Towers,
    and told Americans to "hug your children" and "go shopping"
    because we have a consumer society (60% of the economy was
    due to consumer spending).

    The current pandemic that is running rampant in the USA
    needed a different approach.

    Governors around the country placed the people in their
    states under stay at home measures, closing many businesses
    and costing lots of people their jobs.

    After giving people free money not to work, people are now
    being told to go back to work with no more free money coming
    their way. As a result, many people are losing their lives
    and the jobs they thought they had.

    After re-opening most of the country, the USA is back to
    square one. Lots of people dying, hospitals not having enough
    beds, etc. And still millions upon millions of people without
    jobs. The next stage being when those unemploymnt checks run
    out, leaving those without jobs being broke and homeless.

    But the stock market exchange lives on. As it will forever.

    Remember the stock market crash earlier this year? The S&P 500
    had lost half its value. But since March 23, when the Fed started
    buying junk bonds, the Federal Reserve's balance sheet has grown
    to $7 trillion. That's a lot of junk bonds. Going from flat
    broke to $7 trillion in less than four months.

    Just you wait until the Federal Reserve starts buying US stocks.
    Then you will see elephants fly.

    --Lee

    --
    If it doesn't say Jiffy Lube, it's not Jiffy Lube

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5075/128.130 to Bj?rn Felten on Thu Jul 2 15:45:18 2020
    Hi, Bj?rn Felten!
    I read your message from 30.06.2020 15:12

    LL>> No wonder the man has taken to Twitter. Seems to me to be
    LL>> his only friend. And I am not sure how long that friend
    LL>> will remain his friend.
    BF>
    BF> The major question the outside world (not dominated by the
    BF> US media conglomerate) is asking is: how in heavens name can a
    BF> country as big as the USA so easily be conquered by Russia?

    Looks like a groundless hysteric.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMzK306-j4
    ;-)

    Bye, Bj?rn!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido.fidonews 2020

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    * Origin: Dewy News (2:5075/128.130)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jul 2 16:02:02 2020
    Now all I'd like to know is how long your Feds can manage to prop up the
    stock exchange before it all collapses.

    Junk bonds. The Federal Reserve is buying junk bonds and corporate
    debt ETFs in order to revive the American economy. That is what it
    has been doing since the pandemic began.

    Well, not entirely true. The FED is buying stocks in major US corporations that are going down. The US tax-payers are FED-prepping up the stock so that the share holders will get what they think they own -- and FO the rest of the ordinary citizens.

    After all, there must be a limit even of how much money they can print?

    Fiat money. Scrip. Not real currency at all.

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away with it.

    Hello! Do you think that we are stupid out here? Or maybe you know that we have a few Nobel Prise winners of our own?

    Just you wait until the Federal Reserve starts buying US stocks.
    Then you will see elephants fly.

    Are you kidding me? The Feds have done nothing but flooding US taxpayer's "money" (we'll talk more about that word later on in this channel) for more than 20 years!!!

    Yikes! Are the US people the last ones to actually realize what is happening here? They didn't even know what the Chinese or the Russians knew about it?

    WOW!!! What *is* actually the average IQ of a US citizen?




    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to alexander koryagin on Thu Jul 2 16:07:55 2020
    Looks like a groundless hysteric.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMzK306-j4

    I think you have to explain that. The subtitles didn't work.



    ..

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  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Bj”rn Felten on Thu Jul 2 17:53:10 2020
    Björn Felten - Lee Lofaso <0@2.203.2> writes:

    [...]

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
    degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
    trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away
    with it.

    Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may start
    with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
    (This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question make
    sense? Thank you!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thu Jul 2 21:04:02 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Now all I'd like to know is how long your Feds can manage to prop BF>>up
    the stock exchange before it all collapses.

    Junk bonds. The Federal Reserve is buying junk bonds and corporate
    debt ETFs in order to revive the American economy. That is what it
    has been doing since the pandemic began.

    Well, not entirely true. The FED is buying stocks in major US
    corporations
    that are going down.

    The 1913 Federal Reserve Act (created the central bank) prohibits
    it from buying stocks or corporate assets.

    The US tax-payers are FED-prepping up the stock so that the share holders will get what they think they own -- and FO the rest of the ordinary citizens.

    In March, the Fed set up the special purpose vehicle (SPV) to get
    around the provision against buying corporate assets. This SPV is
    funded by the US Treasury, and managed by BlackRock (BLK). This
    is not quite the same thing as buying stocks, but the same basic
    idea. Just on a smaller scale.

    After all, there must be a limit even of how much money they can
    print?

    Fiat money. Scrip. Not real currency at all.

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university degree
    to
    show for it.

    So do I. Now planning my next step. Becoming a published author.
    Will you beat me to it? Better hurry, the window is closing fast.

    I also know that there's a limit to how many trillions (US -- not metric)
    of
    dollars the FED can print and get away with it.

    Not if the next step is going cashless. Which is becoming a very
    real possibility, given the coronavirus pandemic.

    Hello! Do you think that we are stupid out here?

    US President Donald J. Trump does.

    Or maybe you know that we have a few Nobel Prise winners of our own?

    Donald J. Trump would win the one for Economics for sure if the
    Nobel Committee had any sense.

    Just you wait until the Federal Reserve starts buying US stocks.
    Then you will see elephants fly.

    Are you kidding me?

    The Fed does not have the legal authority to buy stocks (playing
    in the stock market) due to provisions in the 1913 Federal Reserve
    Act. But as I mentioned earlier, there are ways around that.

    Besides, Japan (The Bank of Japan) has been doing this for well
    over a decade (buying ETFs and Japanese stocks). And Switzerland
    is also doing the same in regards to its own stocks.

    The Feds have done nothing but flooding US taxpayer's "money" (we'll talk more about that word later on in this channel) for more than 20 years!!!

    Yeah, we know. We know. And nothing really changes. As if talking
    about it would ever make a difference.

    Yikes! Are the US people the last ones to actually realize what is
    happening
    here?

    The American people voted for Donald J. Trump knowing full well what
    he would do, as he told them in advance exactly what he would do.
    It is the rest of the world that refuses to believe Americans did what
    they actually did, and what it means.

    They didn't even know what the Chinese or the Russians knew about it?

    Donald Trump is always right.
    That is the only thing they need to know.

    WOW!!! What *is* actually the average IQ of a US citizen?

    Sorry. I can't count that low.

    --Lee

    --
    Education not deportation!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Thu Jul 2 21:04:08 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
    degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
    trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away
    with it.

    Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may start with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
    (This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question make sense? Thank you!

    Jekyll Island. Meet the Creature. Learn everything you have always
    wanted to know ...

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thu Jul 2 21:04:14 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    Looks like a groundless hysteric.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMzK306-j4

    I think you have to explain that. The subtitles didn't work.

    Turn the sound on.

    --Lee

    --
    If it doesn't get all over the place, it doesn't belong in your face.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Thu Jul 2 21:16:05 2020
    If I may start
    with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?

    That's an easy one. It's your central bank that "prints" your money.

    The US however does not have a real central bank, they have a regular, private bank called the Federal Reserve, and that is a really interesting story, that will not fit into a regular Fidonet message. Google for "Federal Reserve Act" to find out more.

    Not even the US citizens (save for perhaps a few percent) know about this incredible institution that has such enormous impact on their economy:

    "It is well enough that people of the nation do not
    understand our banking and monetary system, for if
    they did, I believe there would be a revolution
    before tomorrow morning."

    -- not Henry Ford 8-)


    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Jul 2 22:19:59 2020
    Well, not entirely true. The FED is buying stocks in major US corporations
    that are going down.

    The 1913 Federal Reserve Act (created the central bank) prohibits
    it from buying stocks or corporate assets.

    And the Fed cares about legality shit how?

    In March, the Fed set up the special purpose vehicle (SPV) to get
    around the provision against buying corporate assets. This SPV is
    funded by the US Treasury, and managed by BlackRock (BLK). This
    is not quite the same thing as buying stocks, but the same basic
    idea. Just on a smaller scale.

    Ah yes, that's how. Thank you Sir.

    So do I. Now planning my next step. Becoming a published author.
    Will you beat me to it? Better hurry, the window is closing fast.

    Nah, I'm one of the founding fathers of the original (i.e. Swedish) Pirate Party. I'm not into that copyright shit business.

    I also know that there's a limit to how many trillions (US -- not
    metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away with it.

    Not if the next step is going cashless. Which is becoming a very
    real possibility, given the coronavirus pandemic.

    Yes of course, you are quite right. But all fiat money is still just virtual, weather printed on (toilet?) paper or ending up as a number in a computer data base.

    Hello! Do you think that we are stupid out here?

    US President Donald J. Trump does.

    Sorry. I forgot about him. Easily done, no?

    Or maybe you know that we have a few Nobel Prise winners of our own?

    Donald J. Trump would win the one for Economics for sure if the
    Nobel Committee had any sense.

    I've always wondered how he reacted to the fact that Obama got the Peace Prize -- considering his violent reaction to Greta Thunberg making it to the front page of the Times.

    The Fed does not have the legal authority to buy stocks (playing
    in the stock market) due to provisions in the 1913 Federal Reserve
    Act. But as I mentioned earlier, there are ways around that.

    Legal, schlegal. The Big Guys always find a way around such trivial shit.

    The Feds have done nothing but flooding US taxpayer's "money" (we'll talk
    more about that word later on in this channel) for more than 20 years!!!

    Yeah, we know. We know. And nothing really changes. As if talking
    about it would ever make a difference.

    Yeah. As if talking about it ever would... :(

    WOW!!! What *is* actually the average IQ of a US citizen?

    Sorry. I can't count that low.

    LOL!

    I see that still some 45% of your people think that he's the perfect guy for you. Incredible. He's done absolutely nothing right (because he's done nothing at all but playing golf and tweeting) about anything during his entire time in the WH.

    How in heavens name can anyone at all think that he's the best president for the USA? A Putin loving, Kim Jong-un hugging traitor? Sigh, how blind can those 45% be...?




    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From alexander koryagin@2:5020/2140.2 to Bjï¿­rn Felten on Fri Jul 3 00:25:29 2020
    Hi, Bjþrn Felten!
    I read your message from 02.07.2020 15:07

    Looks like a groundless hysteric.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMzK306-j4
    I think you have to explain that. The subtitles didn't work.

    The translation is not necessary. I was joking about your desperate
    words that the USA was conquered by Russia. ;-)

    Bye, Bjþrn!
    Alexander Koryagin
    fido7.fidonews 2020
    --- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
    * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to alexander koryagin on Thu Jul 2 23:22:35 2020
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMzK306-j4

    I think you have to explain that. The subtitles didn't work.

    The translation is not necessary. I was joking about your desperate
    words that the USA was conquered by Russia. ;-)

    That much I understood. We *do* know humour here in Sweden too. I just didn't get the humour in that clip. Alas, never mind.

    The love affair between Trump and Putin is fairly well documented by now. Why Trump hasn't been executed as the traitor he is, is still a big surprise to many of us looking from outside and in to that soap opera that the US WH has been turned into.



    ..

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  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Fri Jul 3 04:11:10 2020
    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
    degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
    trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away
    with it.

    Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may start with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much? (This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question make sense? Thank you!

    Jekyll Island. Meet the Creature. Learn everything you have always
    wanted to know ...

    I've read a report written to the ``United States Gold Commission'' in
    what appears to be 1982. I'm sure you know all it. It's called

    The Monetary Powers and Disabilities
    of the
    United States Constitution
    Edwin Vieira, Jr. February, 1982.

    I read the whole thing. I printed and read it. I do not recall if
    Jekyll Island came up, but the history of the Federal Reserve seems well described there.

    This is the best ``book'' I've ever read on the subject. It's quite
    readable and I'm definitely not from such field.

    It's online actually.

    https://mises.org/library/monetary-powers-and-disabilities-us-constitution

    https://cdn.mises.org/The%20Monetary%20Powers%20and%20Disabilities%20of%20the%2 0US%20Constitution_2.pdf

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Bj÷rn Felten on Fri Jul 3 04:24:44 2020
    Forgive my lack of knowledge of character encoding. I usually use
    UTF-8, but it seems I cannot encode your name properly with it. I don't
    know why. This message might be sent in raw-text, if this is an
    encoding at all.

    Bjrn Felten - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    If I may start with one, where can we find out when money is
    printed and how much?

    That's an easy one. It's your central bank that "prints" your
    money.

    But I was wondering whether there was any index somewhere (say, online,
    or that it could be checked) the dates and the amounts. For instance,
    the Federal Reserve of New York published recently due to the pandemic
    that they would be buying treasure bonds in a certain amount and they
    reported how much they had bought each day they did.

    Is money printing being published somewhere?

    The US however does not have a real central bank, they have a
    regular, private bank called the Federal Reserve, and that is a really interesting story, that will not fit into a regular Fidonet
    message. Google for "Federal Reserve Act" to find out more.

    I will read the Federal Reserve Act and I'll come back.

    Not even the US citizens (save for perhaps a few percent) know
    about this incredible institution that has such enormous impact on
    their economy:

    "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our
    banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be
    a revolution before tomorrow morning."

    -- not Henry Ford 8-)

    In that case, I will also read

    How Internationalists Gain Power
    Russell Maguire
    https://www.unz.com/print/AmMercury-1957oct-00079/?View=PDF

    to see if I can get the context.

    Thank you!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Bj”rn Felten on Fri Jul 3 10:34:11 2020
    Hi Bj”rn,

    On 2020-07-02 22:19:59, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

    But all fiat money is still just virtual, weather printed on (toilet?) paper or ending up as a number in a computer data base.

    If it was printed on toilet paper, at least it would have some real intrinsic value! ;-)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Wayne Harris on Sat Jul 4 18:43:52 2020
    Wayne Harris - Björn Felten <0@6.221.2> writes:

    [...]

    Not even the US citizens (save for perhaps a few percent) know
    about this incredible institution that has such enormous impact on
    their economy:

    "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our
    banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be
    a revolution before tomorrow morning."

    -- not Henry Ford 8-)

    In that case, I will also read

    How Internationalists Gain Power
    Russell Maguire
    https://www.unz.com/print/AmMercury-1957oct-00079/?View=PDF

    to see if I can get the context.

    Not very interesting text. I was expecting a lecture, but it was
    someone stating an opinion. The Henry Ford quote doesn't come with
    evidence that Henry Ford actually said that. Quick read, though.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Sat Jul 4 19:40:44 2020
    -- not Henry Ford 8-)

    The Henry Ford quote doesn't come with
    evidence that Henry Ford actually said that.

    I obviously am better educated than you'd expect from stupid Swede? Please notice the *not* before his name. In other words, do you really think that I thought he said it...?



    ..

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    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Sat Jul 4 23:13:49 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Not very interesting text. I was expecting a lecture, but it was
    someone stating an opinion. The Henry Ford quote doesn't come with evidence that Henry Ford actually said that. Quick read, though.

    Time for you to meet the Creature from Jekyll Island.
    By G. Edward Griffin. It is quite a tome, but well worth
    the read. Happy Hunting.

    --Lee

    --
    My body, my choice! / Her body, her choice!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj÷rn Felten on Sat Jul 4 23:13:56 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    -- not Henry Ford 8-)

    The Henry Ford quote doesn't come with
    evidence that Henry Ford actually said that.

    I obviously am better educated than you'd expect from stupid Swede?
    Please
    notice the *not* before his name. In other words, do you really think
    that
    I thought he said it...?

    The quote has often been attributed to him. Mostly by right-wing
    conspiracy theory nuts. But when one looks at what Henry Ford really
    wrote, he never wrote or said what so many have been told.

    The actual quote you had posted was first found in "The American
    Mercury" in 1957 in an article "How Internationalists Gain Power",
    with the preface to it being -

    "It was Henry Ford Sr. who said in substance ..."

    IOW, the quote was not anything Henry Ford wrote or said, but
    rather an abridgement or paraphrase of what the author of the article
    wanted to claim. That is what the term "in substance" means.

    From there, the quote appeared in "The Federal Reserve Hoax" -
    a book by Wickliffe B. Vennard in 1959.

    I'll give you three guesses as to where Vennard found his quote.

    Here is the original as to what Henry Ford really wrote, which
    was written before the Great Depression -

    The people are naturally conservative. They are more conservative than
    the financiers. Those who believe that the people are so easily led
    that they would permit the printing presses to run off money like milk
    tickets do not understand them. It is the innate conservation of the
    people that has kept our money good in spite of the fantastic tricks
    which financiers play-and which they cover up with high technical
    terms.

    The people are on the side of sound money. They are so unalterably on
    the side of sound money that it is a serious question how they would
    regard the system under which they live, if they once knew what the
    initiate can do with it.

    - from Henry Ford's book "My Life and Work", p. 179

    What was Ford ranting about? Probably the concept of "sound money"
    - which only a fool believes.

    If only regular folks knew how banking worked. In Ford's day, the
    gold standard was going out of style, but still in existence. Today,
    that standard is no more. What we have replaced it with is something
    far more sinister ...

    --Lee

    --
    Dieting doesn't work, Weight Watchers does

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Jul 5 01:02:51 2020
    I obviously am better educated than you'd expect from stupid Swede? Please
    notice the *not* before his name. In other words, do you really think that
    I thought he said it...?

    The quote has often been attributed to him. Mostly by right-wing conspiracy theory nuts. But when one looks at what Henry Ford really wrote, he never wrote or said what so many have been told.

    Thank you Lee for the elaborate ... (we all know what that means, no?)

    So I *am* better educated than -- and so on? 8-)

    Mr. Ford, you may be excused from this hearing. Sir.


    ..

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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Jul 5 08:52:00 2020
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Wayne Harris <=-

    Time for you to meet the Creature from Jekyll Island.
    By G. Edward Griffin. It is quite a tome, but well worth
    the read. Happy Hunting.

    Wow. GEG's wikipedia page is the most severe hatchet job I've read in
    a long time. Time for some balanced editing.




    ... Take away the important parts
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Mon Jul 6 00:14:00 2020
    Hello Kurt,

    Time for you to meet the Creature from Jekyll Island.
    By G. Edward Griffin. It is quite a tome, but well worth
    the read. Happy Hunting.

    Wow. GEG's wikipedia page is the most severe hatchet job I've read in
    a long time. Time for some balanced editing.

    I did try to warn him ...

    --Lee

    --
    Pussy grabs back!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Aug 4 22:57:30 2020
    Björn Felten - Lee Lofaso <0@2.203.2> writes:

    But surely only for 14 days, no?

    The governor keeps extending it - by 28 days.

    Ah yes, of course. The US politicians are not particularly in par with
    your scientists?

    Are scientists in par with the facts? :-)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Bj”rn Felten on Tue Aug 4 23:01:16 2020
    Björn Felten - Lee Lofaso <0@2.203.2> writes:

    At least he has a bunker to go to. For now.

    Yes. And he's got a lot of military hardware to protect him there
    down in the bunker that he only visits for inspection?

    But how does he explain how the US people, who now is indebted at
    $80k each -- babies all the way to 100yo alike? How many years will it
    take for USA to repay such a humongous debt?

    Are you talking about the US public debt of 21 trillion?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Wayne Harris on Tue Aug 4 23:46:42 2020
    Wayne Harris - Lee Lofaso <0@6.221.2> writes:

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
    degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
    trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get away >> >> with it.

    Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may start
    with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
    (This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question make >> WH> sense? Thank you!

    Jekyll Island. Meet the Creature. Learn everything you have always
    wanted to know ...

    Thank you for the recommendation. I completely read part I and II and
    continue the reading, but I think I can open some tangents on my reading
    to ask some clarification and do some verifications.

    On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to describe
    the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not
    make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My
    interest in only in clarity.

    ``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does
    not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
    acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds comprise
    most of its inventory.)''

    Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some
    people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get
    involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people
    did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying that
    the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can
    afford it?

    Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Wed Aug 5 14:04:36 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    But surely only for 14 days, no?

    The governor keeps extending it - by 28 days.

    Ah yes, of course. The US politicians are not particularly in par
    with your scientists?

    Are scientists in par with the facts? :-)

    Scientists such as those who work for the CDC? Of course.
    Doctors such as Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Deborah Birx? Of course.
    But listen to the politicians, who give us those facts.
    Then get back to me, and ask me what the facts are.

    Facts? There are no facts.
    Only those I have been told.

    --Lee

    --
    Love! Not hate! Makes America great!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Wed Aug 5 14:04:41 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    At least he has a bunker to go to. For now.

    Yes. And he's got a lot of military hardware to protect him there
    down in the bunker that he only visits for inspection?

    But how does he explain how the US people, who now is indebted at
    $80k each -- babies all the way to 100yo alike? How many years will it
    take for USA to repay such a humongous debt?

    Are you talking about the US public debt of 21 trillion?

    "Deficits don't matter." ~Dick Cheney

    Deficits and debt are two very different things. When a person
    finances a house, he/she gets to use the house during the period
    he/she is paying for it. Same for other products, such as a car.
    As such, it is not unusual for an individual to be in debt.

    Deficit spending is something else. Due to the insane policies
    of the Trump administration, it is going to take forever for this
    country to dig its way out. In fact, we could become a third world
    country within a relatively short period of time.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Wed Aug 5 14:04:47 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    I know all there is to know about fiat money. I have a university
    degree to show for it. I also know that there's a limit to how many
    trillions (US -- not metric) of dollars the FED can print and get
    away
    with it.

    Great to know! I will probably have a lot of question. If I may
    start
    with one, where can we find out when money is printed and how much?
    (This must be public information, I suppose.) Does the question
    make
    sense? Thank you!

    Jekyll Island. Meet the Creature. Learn everything you have always
    wanted to know ...

    Thank you for the recommendation. I completely read part I and II and continue the reading, but I think I can open some tangents on my reading to ask some clarification and do some verifications.

    Money is not what most folks think it is. Look at it as more of a
    process. Who controls it, and how it is used.

    On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to describe the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not
    make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My interest in only in clarity.

    ``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does
    not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
    acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds comprise
    most of its inventory.)''

    Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get
    involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people
    did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying that the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can
    afford it?

    Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.

    The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
    That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
    Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
    You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
    know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.

    --Lee

    --
    Make 7-Up Yours

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Wed Aug 5 15:29:12 2020
    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    [...]

    On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to
    describe
    the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My interest in only in clarity.

    ``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public
    does
    not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
    acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds
    comprise
    most of its inventory.)''

    Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying
    that
    the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can afford it?

    Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.

    The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
    That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
    Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
    You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
    know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.

    I think you answer the questions above, but not in an explicit way as I
    need to. I'm slow. I need more explicit help. You might be saying the
    Fed provides Congress with the money for buying out the bonds the people
    did not buy, but it's not clear. If you're saying that, I'd need you to
    say it explicitly and hopefully with a pointer of the accounting events
    that would show it.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Wed Aug 5 17:51:14 2020
    In fact, we could become a third world
    country within a relatively short period of time.

    Yeah, well, it is what it is.

    -- New MAGA hat text?


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Thu Aug 6 01:07:24 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.

    The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
    That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
    Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
    You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
    know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.

    I think you answer the questions above, but not in an explicit way as I need to. I'm slow. I need more explicit help. You might be saying the Fed provides Congress with the money for buying out the bonds the people did not buy, but it's not clear. If you're saying that, I'd need you to say it explicitly and hopefully with a pointer of the accounting events that would show it.

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work. The
    Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The Department
    of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the Legislative
    Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what it cannot
    own?

    It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
    even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.

    Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
    able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
    it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
    just as worthless.

    IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
    not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.

    Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
    are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
    not spending it themselves.

    See how that works? Are you catching on yet?

    What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
    to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
    But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
    will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.

    If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
    other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
    loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
    have no value to begin with.

    Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
    And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
    wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
    That is no way to build an economy.

    The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
    value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
    tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.

    We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
    giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
    from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
    way.

    How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
    If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
    in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.

    Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
    What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
    If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
    find it, you would not be a happy camper.

    Back to the original question.

    How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
    money of its own?

    The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
    little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
    rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
    is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
    is printed gets out of control?

    We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
    not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
    he promised, and more.

    We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
    not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
    promised, and more.

    Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
    people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    --Lee

    --
    Say it loud! Say it clear! / Refugees are welcome here!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thu Aug 6 01:07:39 2020
    Hello Bj”rn,

    In fact, we could become a third world
    country within a relatively short period of time.

    Yeah, well, it is what it is.

    -- New MAGA hat text?

    Could be. However, Bette Midler may have topped it
    with her tweet -

    Mitch McConnell is privately telling GOP candidates
    to distance themselves from Trump if they need to. Welp,
    they can stand 6,000 feet away & wear 10 masks. It's too
    late. They're all infected with #Moronavirus.
    ~ Bette Midler tweet, 4 August 2020

    That is a new word for the 21st century.
    Moronavirus. Caught on really fast. And now
    nobody seems to know how to get rid of it.

    --Lee

    --
    Your Hole Is Our Goal

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Aug 6 04:59:26 2020
    Hi, Lee.

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Let me begin with these questions only. Thank you.

    The Congress does not spend money. It merely appropreates funds.
    That is what most folks fail to realize, or simply do not understand.
    Bankers understand the process, and how to make money work for them.
    You see, money is nothing more than a medium of exchange. And as you
    know, no real money ever passes hands in Congress.

    I think you answer the questions above, but not in an explicit way as I need to. I'm slow. I need more explicit help. You might be saying
    the
    Fed provides Congress with the money for buying out the bonds the
    people
    did not buy, but it's not clear. If you're saying that, I'd need you
    to
    say it explicitly and hopefully with a pointer of the accounting events that would show it.

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
    Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
    it cannot own?

    It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
    even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.

    Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
    able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
    it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
    just as worthless.

    IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
    not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.

    Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
    are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
    not spending it themselves.

    See how that works? Are you catching on yet?

    What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
    to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
    But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
    will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.

    If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
    other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
    loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
    have no value to begin with.

    Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
    And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
    wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
    That is no way to build an economy.

    The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
    value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
    tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.

    We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
    giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
    from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
    way.

    How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
    If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
    in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.

    Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
    What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
    If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
    find it, you would not be a happy camper.

    Back to the original question.

    How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
    money of its own?

    The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
    little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
    is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
    is printed gets out of control?

    We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
    not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
    he promised, and more.

    We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
    not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he promised, and more.

    Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
    people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I
    take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The question
    has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.

    --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
    On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to describe
    the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not
    make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My
    interest in only in clarity.

    ``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does
    not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
    acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds comprise
    most of its inventory.)''

    Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some
    people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get
    involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people
    did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying that
    the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can
    afford it?
    --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

    As I tried to convey above, I'm interested in understanding each step of
    the process with a maximum of clarity.

    Child A slapped child B in school and there is no question as to the
    fact --- it's been filmed by a security camera and many people have
    already seen it. Parents are making a whole fuss about it. A meeting
    has been scheduled. Some claim it was an act of evil and others said
    it's just normal children stuff. These are all profound questions. All
    I'm asking is to see the video: it must show the fact and I haven't seen
    it yet.

    My own attempt at answering the question might clarify, but it won't be
    as clear as I would like it to be, so please rewrite it or fill it in as
    you can.

    Governments eventually find themselves having spent all the resources
    they had. More resources are coming all the time through the revenue
    service, so when pockets are empty they could first check with the
    Department of Treasury whether they've earned some more in the meantime. Suppose the answer is no: the government has spent it all from their
    ``last paycheck''. They'll need a plan B.

    As a plan B, the government decides to sell bonds. Some people buy it
    because it's considered by many a very good investment, after all it's
    the treasury promising to pay it back with an interest. However, after
    selling all securities people were willing to buy, they still didn't
    raise all they needed, so they need a plan C.

    As a plan C, the Treasury approaches the Federal Reserve to provide the resources they couldn't raise by themselves. The Federal Reserve
    provides the Treasury with _something_ that allows the Treasury to let government start spending, which they do. From here on money starting
    flowing hand in hand as payments are made and banks go on lending it to
    whoever borrows and earning interests over their ``excess reserves'' ---
    for sure the best business model there is.

    So, when Griffin says ``the Fed takes all the government bonds which the
    public does not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for
    them'', perhaps he means that the Federal Reserve buys all bonds the
    public did not buy, letting the Treasury raise the resources they wanted
    to, but couldn't do it themselves alone (because people just didn't buy
    it all.)

    It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not
    know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see
    the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day
    1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my
    addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.

    Thank you!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Thu Aug 6 17:10:48 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    Highly. Very highly. It is the best. The very best. And I am not
    the only one who recommends reading this book. It is a true classic,
    and is extremely popular among many, including some US Senators.

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3


    The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
    Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the
    Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
    it cannot own?

    It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
    even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.

    Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
    able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
    it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
    just as worthless.

    IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
    not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.

    Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
    are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
    not spending it themselves.

    See how that works? Are you catching on yet?

    What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
    to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
    But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
    will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.

    If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
    other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
    loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
    have no value to begin with.

    Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
    And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
    wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
    That is no way to build an economy.

    The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
    value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
    tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.

    We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
    giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
    from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
    way.

    How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
    If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
    in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.

    Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
    What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
    If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
    find it, you would not be a happy camper.

    Back to the original question.

    How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
    money of its own?

    The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
    little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
    rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
    is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
    is printed gets out of control?

    We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
    not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
    he promised, and more.

    We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
    not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
    promised, and more.

    Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
    people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The question has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.

    That's okay. The article I cited above does give a very concise, and
    accurate, answer.


    --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
    On page 192 of the 5th edition, George Edward Griffin begins to
    describe
    the ``Mandrake Mechanism''. I was warned that the process might not
    make much sense, but I'm not trying to find any sense in this. My
    interest in only in clarity.

    ``First, the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public
    does
    not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for them. (It
    acquires other debt obligations as well, but government bonds
    comprise
    most of its inventory.)''

    Let me take each step carefully. The government issues bonds. Some
    people buy it. Some bonds are not bought. How does Congress get
    involved in this? Is it the case that Congress buys all those people
    did not buy? With what money does Congress buy? Is Griffin saying
    that
    the Fed itself ``writes a check to Congress'' so that Congress can
    afford it?
    --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

    As I tried to convey above, I'm interested in understanding each step of the process with a maximum of clarity.

    The process is very simple. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I'll give you a recent example.

    President Obama had to deal with a huge financial crisis when he
    took office. One of the programs he initiated (through the Congress)
    was his "Cash for Clunkers" program. People could trade in their
    old cars that did not run for a few thousand bucks, no questions
    asked. This program saved US car companies, which had been having
    a very difficult time selling their new cars. See how that works?
    Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    Child A slapped child B in school and there is no question as to the
    fact --- it's been filmed by a security camera and many people have already seen it. Parents are making a whole fuss about it. A meeting
    has been scheduled. Some claim it was an act of evil and others said
    it's just normal children stuff. These are all profound questions. All I'm asking is to see the video: it must show the fact and I haven't seen it yet.

    My own attempt at answering the question might clarify, but it won't be
    as clear as I would like it to be, so please rewrite it or fill it in as you can.

    The writer of the article cited above answers your question in a way
    that is direct and to the point.

    Governments eventually find themselves having spent all the resources
    they had. More resources are coming all the time through the revenue service, so when pockets are empty they could first check with the Department of Treasury whether they've earned some more in the meantime. Suppose the answer is no: the government has spent it all from their ``last paycheck''. They'll need a plan B.

    There is no plan B. When government runs out of revenue, no services
    can be provided. IOW, there is no government. All that is left is
    "laughable bullshit". Nothing more, nothing less. Time to hang it up
    and milk the cows. All by yourself.

    As a plan B, the government decides to sell bonds. Some people buy it because it's considered by many a very good investment, after all it's
    the treasury promising to pay it back with an interest. However, after selling all securities people were willing to buy, they still didn't
    raise all they needed, so they need a plan C.

    There is no plan C any more than there was a plan B.

    As a plan C, the Treasury approaches the Federal Reserve to provide the resources they couldn't raise by themselves. The Federal Reserve
    provides the Treasury with _something_ that allows the Treasury to let government start spending, which they do. From here on money starting flowing hand in hand as payments are made and banks go on lending it to whoever borrows and earning interests over their ``excess reserves'' --- for sure the best business model there is.

    The Fed does not have an army. And all armies need to get paid.
    No money, no soldiers. No soldiers, no army. It really is that simple.

    So, when Griffin says ``the Fed takes all the government bonds which the public does not buy and writes a check to Congress in exchange for
    them'', perhaps he means that the Federal Reserve buys all bonds the public did not buy, letting the Treasury raise the resources they wanted to, but couldn't do it themselves alone (because people just didn't buy
    it all.)

    Griffin is taking one kernel of truth and then adding a whole lot
    of "laughable bullshit" to his argument. His ideas are unsupported
    and unsubstantiated. No credence whatsoever. But his book is a very
    fun read. Loads and loads of fun.

    It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not
    know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see
    the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day
    1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my
    addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.

    Oh, I am sure you and others are able to count just fine. Next post
    I am going to roast Griffin's "mandrake mechanism" over very hot coals.
    And see if there is anything left when the flames subside. Feel free
    to comment on my upcoming analysis.

    Thank you!

    Griffin argues for abolishing the Fed, citing seven reasons in his
    book. However, all his arguments are "laughable bullshit", as noted
    by critics of his work.

    According to Griffin, the real problem is ideologies and philosophies
    such as collectivism (the group is more important that the individual).
    His view is to get rid of anything and everything that even smells of collectivism. Kind of like a John Bircher on steroids.

    The Federal Reserve was created in late 1913 as a central banking
    system in response to a string of fincancial crises. Then came WWI.
    And the US entry into that war. Then the Spanish Flu pandemic of
    1918/19.

    Now, if only President Trump had a PhD like Woodrow Wilson, we might
    somehow survive ...

    --Lee

    --
    We're Great In Bed

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Thu Aug 6 20:26:24 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    These are his stated beliefs. Make of them what you will.
    From his very own homepage -

    https://freedomforceinternational.org/position-statements/


    Enjoy his entire site. Lots there.

    Here is a talk by him, on a different site -

    https://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm


    That should be enough to give you an idea as to where he is
    coming from. In all his writings, he is consistent with his POV.

    Not that I necessarily agree with everything he has to say/write.
    Such as vaccines. Should vaccines be compulsory? Or should individuals
    have the right to refuse? Suppose we are told the US has a vaccine for
    the coronavirus, and refusal to accept vaccination is not an option.
    You have no idea what is about to be put into your body. Do you want
    to allow something that might very well kill you (or worse) be
    injected?

    Maybe global warming really is a hoax. Maybe chemtrails really are
    responsible for giving us all cancer, or some other deadly disease.

    But hey. This is a free country. Where folks can write whatever they
    want on a web page. Or on facebook. Or on twitter. Unless one is from
    Belgium, in which case the account gets suspended (ask Ward D.).

    --Lee

    --
    Everybody Loves Our Buns

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Aug 13 03:29:40 2020
    Hi, Lee.

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    Highly. Very highly. It is the best. The very best. And I am not
    the only one who recommends reading this book. It is a true classic,
    and is extremely popular among many, including some US Senators.

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3

    This page doesn't recommend the book. Ron Paul might, I don't know if
    he does. In any case Ron Paul does seem serious about understanding
    things because he seems to invite serious people who do seriously work
    on understanding things.

    ``What is money?'' by Joseph Salerno https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowbrq_g5NM

    ``What is constitutional money?'' by Edwin Vieira https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gMkKmQSW4

    ``What about money causes economic crisis?'' by Peter Schiff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJ0CUT8d_Y

    The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
    Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the
    Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
    it cannot own?

    It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
    even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.

    Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
    able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
    it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
    just as worthless.

    IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
    not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.

    Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
    are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
    not spending it themselves.

    See how that works? Are you catching on yet?

    What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
    to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
    But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
    will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.

    If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
    other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
    loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
    have no value to begin with.

    Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
    And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
    wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
    That is no way to build an economy.

    The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
    value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
    tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.

    We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
    giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
    from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
    way.

    How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
    If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
    in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.

    Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
    What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
    If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
    find it, you would not be a happy camper.

    Back to the original question.

    How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
    money of its own?

    The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
    little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
    rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
    is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
    is printed gets out of control?

    We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
    not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
    he promised, and more.

    We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
    not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
    promised, and more.

    Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
    people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The
    question
    has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.

    That's okay. The article I cited above does give a very concise, and accurate, answer.

    If you're talking about

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3

    then you can't be serious. This page ridicules the work and doesn't
    answer anything. I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
    We must be having a serious miscommunication here.

    [...]

    It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day 1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.

    Oh, I am sure you and others are able to count just fine. Next post
    I am going to roast Griffin's "mandrake mechanism" over very hot coals.
    And see if there is anything left when the flames subside. Feel free
    to comment on my upcoming analysis.

    Sounds great! Thanks! (I haven't any new posts on this, though.)

    [...]

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Thu Aug 13 03:40:48 2020
    Hi, Lee.

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [..]

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    These are his stated beliefs. Make of them what you will.
    From his very own homepage -

    https://freedomforceinternational.org/position-statements/


    Enjoy his entire site. Lots there.

    Here is a talk by him, on a different site -

    https://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm

    Thanks. Incidentally, I had already read this talk. That does clarify
    his meanings of some of his description in chapter ten of ``The Creature
    from Jekyll Island''.

    That should be enough to give you an idea as to where he is
    coming from. In all his writings, he is consistent with his POV.

    Yes, thanks.

    But, you see, I'm not worried about his position or ``where he is coming from''. Of course it's a very interesting thing to understand a person
    deeply, but for Wayne Harris right now the moment is to verify
    arithmetic. We begin verifying that ``2 + 2 = 4'' and then then we move
    to claims such as ``17 is a prime number''. We'll leave interesting
    stories of how Gauss really found the normal distribution for a more retrospective moment of life. The moment is to know it exists and to
    use it to calculate probabilities. In other words, most of the causes
    Griffin lays out in his talks and books are not important to the
    beginner: what matters most is how things work and how we can verify it.

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_ reporter of
    the US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?) A
    follow-up question would be: how can we get an official history of the increases in the national debt? (That is, where is the accounting
    statements for the number over the last few decades?)

    Thanks so much.

    [...]

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Fri Aug 14 11:25:27 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    Highly. Very highly. It is the best. The very best. And I am not
    the only one who recommends reading this book. It is a true classic,
    and is extremely popular among many, including some US Senators.

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3

    This page doesn't recommend the book. Ron Paul might, I don't know if
    he does. In any case Ron Paul does seem serious about understanding things because he seems to invite serious people who do seriously work
    on understanding things.

    Like his son, Paul is on old-school kind of guy. Wants to go back
    to the gold and silver standard. No more need to even have a federal
    reserve. But if we are going to have a federal reserve, best to let
    the bankers run it. In private. No need to tell anybody what they
    are doing, or are up to.

    ``What is money?'' by Joseph Salerno https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowbrq_g5NM

    ``What is constitutional money?'' by Edwin Vieira https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6gMkKmQSW4

    ``What about money causes economic crisis?'' by Peter Schiff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJ0CUT8d_Y

    The Congress does not spend money. It appropriates funds. The
    Department of the Treasury is part of the Executive Branch, not the
    Legislative Branch. How can the Department of the Treasury sell what
    it cannot own?

    It's kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul. There has to be a victim,
    even if that victim never realizes he/she is the victim.

    Paper bills and coins made of metal have no real value. People are
    able to spend it as "legal tender" only because government endorsed
    it. Otherwise, those paper bills and coins made of metal would be
    just as worthless.

    IOW, people spend it because they believe it has value. If they did
    not believe it had value, it would be used for something else.

    Some people like to save it rather than spend it. But what they
    are actually doing is allow other people to spend it since they are
    not spending it themselves.

    See how that works? Are you catching on yet?

    What Griffin calls the "Mandrake Mechanism" is his way of trying
    to put the blame on inflation as being the root cause of all evil.
    But if you take the time to analyze what is really happening, you
    will find deflation to be far more destructive than inflation.

    If you want to make money you have to spend money. Preferably
    other people's money. Saving money is losing money, since all money
    loses value over time. And you are talking about paper bills, which
    have no value to begin with.

    Austerity has never worked in the past. It will not work now.
    And it will never work in the future. What happens, is people just
    wait. And wait. And wait. For prices to drop. And drop. And drop.
    That is no way to build an economy.

    The idea of fiat money, or scrip, is nothing new. People place
    value on objects of their own choice, or what the leaders of their
    tribe have dictated. Even primitive societies use fiat money.

    We could just as well be using snake oil. The people of Yap use
    giant round stones as their currency. They haul these giant stones
    from island to island, hoping their canoe does not sink along the
    way.

    How much gold is stored at Ft. Knox? Or at any vault in the US?
    If Germany requested the US to return its stash of gold being held
    in US vaults, would the US comply? I doubt it.

    Suppose the US no longer has the gold it was storing for Germany.
    What would happen to whatever investments the US has in Germany?
    If I was holding your gold, and you wanted it back, and I couldn't
    find it, you would not be a happy camper.

    Back to the original question.

    How can the Fed give money to the Congress when the Fed has no
    money of its own?

    The Fed can print money. Or what it calls money. As much, or as
    little, as it wants. It can raise interest rates. It can lower interest
    rates. It can do lots of other things. It can create, and control, what
    is commonly called "money". But what happens when all the money that
    is printed gets out of control?

    We know what happened in Germany. People had so much money they did
    not what to do with it. Then came Hitler, who gave Germans everything
    he promised, and more.

    We also know what happeed in the USA. People had no money, and did
    not know what to do. Then came FDR, who gave Americans everything he
    promised, and more.

    Yep. If you want to make money, gotta spend money, preferably other
    people's money. Kinda like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    I appreciate your attention. You're not answering the question, but I
    take responsibility for it. I didn't express myself well. The
    question has been snipped, so I'll have to recover it.

    That's okay. The article I cited above does give a very concise, and
    accurate, answer.

    If you're talking about

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3

    then you can't be serious.

    There are different schools of thought on this subject. And each
    school is quite serious, in its own way.

    In the 1930s, government intervention was FDR's response to the
    Great Depression, using the basics of Keynesian economics of government spending and regulation to bring everything under control.

    After Nixon was elected, things changed. Less government spending,
    and less regulation, became the way. Supply-side economics to promote
    economic prosperity.

    Clinton and Obama tried to bring some level of Keynesian economics
    back into play, but both faced too much opposition in Congress to do
    everything they wanted.

    GWB was a failure when it came to economics. When he took office,
    he had a surplus. Eight months later, before the events of 9-11, he
    had a deficit. All because he gave it all away in a tax cut for the
    wealthy.

    Today, what we have is a total economic disaster. Not just a failure
    that can be turned around by competent leadership. 61% of the national
    debt will mature within the next four years. This country does not
    have the funds to pay for it. Which means, the debt will have to be
    refinanced, at a higher interest rate.

    This is all due becase an incompetent president gave away all our
    money in a tax cut for the wealthy.

    Fortunately, the American people have a solution ...

    This page ridicules the work and doesn't answer anything.

    With interest rates being basically zero, there is no growth.
    And yet, the very wealthy are getting richer. At the expense of
    the poor. This fact proves Griffin's "mandrake mechanism" is
    flawed thinking on his part.

    I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
    We must be having a serious miscommunication here.

    How can an economy continue to grow when there is no increase
    in production? Griffin argues that interest rates are an increase
    in production. But there is no increase in interest rates. People
    are losing jobs. Businesses are closing.

    And our national debt continues to increase, along with our
    inability to pay.

    [...]

    It should be clear now that I'm interested in the process. I may not
    know whether we are counting cats or dogs, but I should be able to see
    the arithmetic in clear steps. If I've counted 3 things already in day
    1 and then I count 4 more things in day 2, then putting these two days
    together, I've counted 3 + 4 = 7, which I verify by looking up my
    addition table, which is something I assume to be correct.

    Oh, I am sure you and others are able to count just fine. Next post
    I am going to roast Griffin's "mandrake mechanism" over very hot coals.
    And see if there is anything left when the flames subside. Feel free
    to comment on my upcoming analysis.

    Sounds great! Thanks! (I haven't any new posts on this, though.)

    Libertarian economic ideologicals favor even less government
    intervention than conservatives. Preferably none at all. Which
    makes them almost anarchists.

    What if President Trump tells Americans that a vaccine has been
    developed, and tells every American to get themselves innoculated.
    How many would listen, or comply? Should it even be an option?

    --Lee

    --
    I won't fan the flames of hate, ~Joe Biden

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Fri Aug 14 11:25:33 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    Griffin does not have a very good grasp on how things work.

    It was you who recommended me the book. :-)

    These are his stated beliefs. Make of them what you will.
    From his very own homepage -

    https://freedomforceinternational.org/position-statements/


    Enjoy his entire site. Lots there.

    Here is a talk by him, on a different site -

    https://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm

    Thanks. Incidentally, I had already read this talk. That does clarify his meanings of some of his description in chapter ten of ``The Creature from Jekyll Island''.

    That should be enough to give you an idea as to where he is
    coming from. In all his writings, he is consistent with his POV.

    Yes, thanks.

    His position is to eliminate the fed. Go back to the gold and silver
    standard, in accordance to what is stated in the US Constitution.

    But, you see, I'm not worried about his position or ``where he is coming from''. Of course it's a very interesting thing to understand a person deeply, but for Wayne Harris right now the moment is to verify
    arithmetic. We begin verifying that ``2 + 2 = 4'' and then then we move to claims such as ``17 is a prime number''. We'll leave interesting stories of how Gauss really found the normal distribution for a more retrospective moment of life. The moment is to know it exists and to
    use it to calculate probabilities. In other words, most of the causes Griffin lays out in his talks and books are not important to the
    beginner: what matters most is how things work and how we can verify it.

    How things work are how those in power intend for things to work.

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_ reporter of
    the
    US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    A follow-up question would be: how can we get an official history of the increases in the national debt? (That is, where is the accounting statements for the number over the last few decades?)

    Same source. They keep the books, remember?

    Thanks so much.

    You'll have to do your own math to figure it all out.

    --Lee

    --
    Popular vote!

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Fri Aug 14 23:49:24 2020
    Hi, Lee.

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    [...]

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_ reporter of
    the
    US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    That makes perfect sense. I get to


    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx

    and then I go to

    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm

    The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where.
    I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how
    and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
    point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Sat Aug 15 00:02:32 2020
    Hi, Lee!

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    [...]

    If you're talking about

    https://tinyurl.com/st3feq3

    then you can't be serious.

    There are different schools of thought on this subject. And each
    school is quite serious, in its own way.

    This page ridicules the book without precisely pointing anything wrong
    with it. That's not a serious observation about the subject.

    [...]

    Fortunately, the American people have a solution ...

    Edwin Vieira lays out a very reasonable plan. I suppose you have read

    The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the U.S. Constitution

    That's not the multi-volume Pieces of Eight; that's just the report
    written to the Gold Commission in 1982, which is not a long read.

    I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
    We must be having a serious miscommunication here.

    How can an economy continue to grow when there is no increase
    in production? Griffin argues that interest rates are an increase
    in production. But there is no increase in interest rates. People
    are losing jobs. Businesses are closing.

    Where does he say that interest rates are an increase in production?

    Thanks!

    [...]

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Sat Aug 15 14:19:06 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
    reporter of the
    US national debt? (If so, where does it show it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    That makes perfect sense. I get to



    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx

    and then I go to

    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm

    The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where. I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how
    and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
    point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!

    Here is a site that breaks it down in chunks, year by year -

    https://www.thestreet.com/politics/national-debt-year-by-year-14876008


    You can find the same info at the Department of the Treasury site,
    but it is not nearly as colorful. :)

    "Deficits don't matter." ~Dick Cheney

    --Lee

    --
    Dieting doesn't work, Weight Watchers does

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Sat Aug 15 22:57:08 2020
    Hi, Lee!

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
    reporter of the US national debt? (If so, where does it show
    it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    That makes perfect sense. I get to

    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx
    and then I go to
    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm

    The question is which report tells me the total national debt and
    where.
    I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!

    Here is a site that breaks it down in chunks, year by year -

    https://www.thestreet.com/politics/national-debt-year-by-year-14876008

    Wonderful! Thanks so much for this.

    You can find the same info at the Department of the Treasury site,
    but it is not nearly as colorful. :)

    I suppose. I'll do this confirmation as my next step.

    "Deficits don't matter." ~Dick Cheney

    Sadly funny! :-)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wayne Harris on Sat Aug 15 22:18:35 2020
    Hello Wayne,

    There are different schools of thought on this subject. And each
    school is quite serious, in its own way.

    This page ridicules the book without precisely pointing anything wrong with it. That's not a serious observation about the subject.

    It presents an angle not all will agree with.

    [...]

    Fortunately, the American people have a solution ...

    Edwin Vieira lays out a very reasonable plan. I suppose you have read

    The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the U.S. Constitution

    That's not the multi-volume Pieces of Eight; that's just the report written to the Gold Commission in 1982, which is not a long read.

    Far shorter is Anthony Sutton's "The Federal Reserve Conspiracy".

    I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
    We must be having a serious miscommunication here.

    How can an economy continue to grow when there is no increase
    in production? Griffin argues that interest rates are an increase
    in production. But there is no increase in interest rates. People
    are losing jobs. Businesses are closing.

    Where does he say that interest rates are an increase in production?

    That is the "magic money" created by the Fed due to the "mandrake
    mechanism" written about by Griffin. This is what the Fed creates out
    of thin air, how we can spend our way out of debt. Just think about
    the benefits. When that 61% of bonds that comes due within four years
    needs to be paid, all the Fed needs to do is raise interest rates.
    Then, we refinance those bonds so there is no default.

    All the faith and credit backed up by the US government. Guess which
    country do you think will benefit the most? If you guessed China, you
    would be right.

    Thanks!

    China owns us. Only we do not realize it yet.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Wayne Harris on Sat Aug 15 23:45:06 2020
    Wayne Harris - Lee Lofaso <0@6.221.2> writes:

    Hi, Lee!

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
    reporter of the US national debt? (If so, where does it show
    it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    That makes perfect sense. I get to
    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx >> WH> and then I go to
    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm

    The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where.
    I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how >> WH> and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
    point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!

    Here is a site that breaks it down in chunks, year by year -

    https://www.thestreet.com/politics/national-debt-year-by-year-14876008

    Wonderful! Thanks so much for this.

    You can find the same info at the Department of the Treasury site,
    but it is not nearly as colorful. :)

    I suppose. I'll do this confirmation as my next step.

    The Treasury on

    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd_debttothepenny.htm

    reports the national total debt as far back as 2009. If we look at the
    table built by thestreet.com, we see that in 2009 they picked the number

    11,909,829,003,511.70

    and the Treasury reports that number on September 30th 2009:

    09/30/2009's total debt of $11,909,829,003,511.75

    We can see thestreet.com rounds down the cents. If we compare 2018, we
    see thestreet.com picked the number

    21,516,058,183,180.20

    and the Treasury reports that number on September 29th 2018:

    09/28/2018's total debt of $21,516,058,183,180.23.

    The Treasury is currently offering a new data provider at

    https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/datasets/debt-to-the-penny/

    where we can get the data going back to 1993. That seems to be all they
    can offer at the moment. Thestreet.com did a nice summary over those
    very interesting years. I wish I could drop the author a thank you
    note, something which wouldn't even come up were not for Lee Lofaso's
    advising and assistance. My sincere THANKS!

    I've just verified that 2 + 2 = 4. My most profound step so far.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Lee Lofaso on Sun Aug 16 06:32:36 2020
    Hi, Lee.

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    There are different schools of thought on this subject. And each
    school is quite serious, in its own way.

    This page ridicules the book without precisely pointing anything wrong with it. That's not a serious observation about the subject.

    It presents an angle not all will agree with.

    It what, who? The page, or Griffin?

    [...]

    Fortunately, the American people have a solution ...

    Edwin Vieira lays out a very reasonable plan. I suppose you have read

    The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the U.S. Constitution

    That's not the multi-volume Pieces of Eight; that's just the report written to the Gold Commission in 1982, which is not a long read.

    Far shorter is Anthony Sutton's "The Federal Reserve Conspiracy".

    Interesting. I'll check it out, though in terms of identifying
    precisely who did what, where and when is less important to me. But if
    he exposes the history in more technical details than Griffin, then that
    should be well appreciated by me.

    I'm perplexed you'd say this page answer the question.
    We must be having a serious miscommunication here.

    How can an economy continue to grow when there is no increase
    in production? Griffin argues that interest rates are an increase
    in production. But there is no increase in interest rates. People
    are losing jobs. Businesses are closing.

    Where does he say that interest rates are an increase in production?

    That is the "magic money" created by the Fed due to the "mandrake
    mechanism" written about by Griffin. This is what the Fed creates out
    of thin air, how we can spend our way out of debt. Just think about
    the benefits. When that 61% of bonds that comes due within four years
    needs to be paid, all the Fed needs to do is raise interest rates.
    Then, we refinance those bonds so there is no default.

    All the faith and credit backed up by the US government. Guess which
    country do you think will benefit the most? If you guessed China, you
    would be right.

    I thought you were going to point out somewhere where Griffin says
    something that's incorrect.

    Thanks!

    China owns us. Only we do not realize it yet.

    The situation is interesting. Once the US doesn't pay any more
    interests or perhaps China begins to refuse any more payment with a
    medium of exchange it doesn't care to get more any longer, we could
    perhaps say that this would be a hard fall of the dollar --- but in a
    certain sense that is also China's loss. The US will lose the currency
    it worked hard to build, but if the US thinks it's already a losing
    battle, might as well enjoy the fact that it won't pay anything back.
    Maybe China is perhaps buying the fall of the dollar. I don't know.
    Maybe Russian, Brazil, India, China would enjoy such fall. They have
    slowly looking for alternatives to the dollar. Have they not?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Wayne Harris@2:221/6 to Wayne Harris on Mon Aug 17 07:31:46 2020
    Wayne Harris - Lee Lofaso <0@6.221.2> writes:

    Hi, Lee!

    Lee Lofaso - Wayne Harris <0@2.203.2> writes:

    Hello Wayne,

    [...]

    So here's a pretty simple question. Is there an _official_
    reporter of the US national debt? (If so, where does it show
    it the amount?)

    The Department of the Treasury.
    The stats can be viewed online.

    That makes perfect sense. I get to
    https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Markets/Pages/national-debt.aspx >> WH> and then I go to
    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd.htm

    The question is which report tells me the total national debt and where.
    I'm not interested in budget deficits or anything. I just to see how >> WH> and where does the Treasury report the total national debt. Can you
    point an accurate arrow to it? I appreciate that! Thanks!

    Here is a site that breaks it down in chunks, year by year -

    https://www.thestreet.com/politics/national-debt-year-by-year-14876008

    Wonderful! Thanks so much for this.

    Here's an interesting passage.

    ``[...] At the time Hamilton called for such action, the states owed a
    collective $25 million (approximately $684 million in today's
    terms). [...]'' -- Eric Reed

    Clearly, the reporter is able to update an old value to the loss of
    value over the course of inflation. How can I confirm his arithmetic?
    I'll read an entire book to learn how to do that, if anyone can point me
    out a nice publication on the topic.

    But, in fact, with the little we've been learning, we could even take a
    guess at producing such measures. We have the total public debt. Maybe
    we can produce a measure of the loss of value out of the increase in the
    public debt relative to a past point in time. We can then update that
    old value to ``today's terms'' and see how we get.

    Let's assume Eric Reed's table are all correct. (We previously took a
    small sample and verified it to the cent and it looked good.) From 1790
    to 2018 the total public debt went from 71060508.50 to 21516058183180.20.
    This must be encoding the loss in dollar value. How much does
    71060508.50 compare to 21516058183180.20? We can say that the debt in
    1790 is roughly

    3.30 * 10^{-6}

    percent of the debt today. Perhaps we can say that the loss of value of currency is directly proportional to the total monetary supply. Let's
    try that. If we take the total debt as a measure of the monetary supply
    both in 1790 and today, we get a loss of 3.30 * 10^{-6} in each dollar.

    Similarly, we can see how much each dollar in 1790 would compare to
    today's dollar. We can measure such thing by dividing the total debt
    today by the total debt in 1790, getting

    302785.02979162044

    as the increase in value. Therefore, to know how much 25 million in
    1790 is today, we multiply 25 million by the number above, getting

    7,569,625,744,790.511

    which is a far larger amount than the 684 million computed by Eric Reed.
    We are likely wrong. (If we would reduce 684 million by that loss
    factor we computed, we'd get roughly 2,259 dollars, which is much less
    than 25 million dollars. We don't get close either way. What did we
    learn? That are very likely wrong on this attempt.)

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    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)