• for discussion

    From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to All on Sun Jun 28 01:15:56 2020
    Hi All!

    Here's one for the non-native English Speakers:

    Discuss the difference between "Its getting colder" and "Its getting
    cooler". For bonus marks, discuss the difference between "Its
    getting..." and "It's getting...."

    :-)



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jun 28 13:30:40 2020
    Dallas Hinton - All:

    Here's one for the non-native English Speakers:

    Discuss the difference between "Its getting colder" and "Its
    getting cooler". For bonus marks, discuss the difference between
    "Its getting..." and "It's getting...."

    I noticed the confused participle without the hint. You ought to
    have reserved it as a surprise for the first responder who missed
    the misssing apostrophe:

    -- Mrs. Stickler, Can I open the window?
    -- You certainly can, but you may not :-)

    That evening, we talked mostly about the weather. --
    a. Its getting colder alarmed me.
    b. Its getting cooler had loosed our tongues.

    Its ceasing to rain prompted our closing our umbrellas.

    In "The Grammar of Englisn Grammars", Goold Brown crushes this
    construction into grey dust:

    The sentence is this: "Much will depend on your pupil's
    composing, but more on his reading frequently."—Philos. of Rhet.,
    p. 235. Volumes innumerable have gone abroad, into our schools
    and elsewhere, which pronounce this sentence to be "correct and
    proper." But after all, what does it mean? But after all, what
    does it mean? Does the adverb "frequently" qualify the verb "will
    depend" expressed in the sentence? or "will depend" understood
    after more? or both? or neither? Or does this adverb qualify the
    action of "reading?" or the action of "composing?" or both? or
    neither? But "composing" and "reading", if they are mere nouns,
    cannot properly be qualified by any adverb; and, if they are
    called participles, the question recurs respecting the
    possessives. Besides, "composing", as a participle, is commonly
    transitive; nor is it very fit for a noun, without some adjunct.
    And, when participles become nouns, their government (it is said)
    falls upon "of", and their adverbs are usually converted into
    adjectives; as, "Much will depend on your pupil's composing of
    themes; but more, on his frequent reading." This may not be the
    author's meaning, for the example was originally composed as a
    mere mock sentence, or by way of "experiment;" and one may doubt
    whether its meaning was ever at all thought of by the
    philosopher. But, to make it a respectable example, some
    correction there must be; for, surely, no man can have any clear
    idea to communicate, which he cannot better express, than by
    imitating this loose phraseology. It is scarcely more correct,
    than to say, "Much will depend on an author's using, but more on
    his learning frequently." [continued!]

    Whereas Fowler is content merely to require the possessive pronoun,
    e.g. pardon my/me introding upon you so.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Sun Jun 28 13:44:20 2020
    I wrote:

    Its ceasing to rain prompted our closing our umbrellas.

    Or should it be folding or furling?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Sun Jun 28 05:37:13 2020
    Hi Anton -- on Jun 28 2020 at 13:44, you wrote:

    Its ceasing to rain prompted our closing our umbrellas.

    Or should it be folding or furling?

    All three terms are functionally synonymous, although the two you
    suggest are more formal, imo. And to be more pedantic, one folds a
    newspaper, but furls an umbrella. :-)


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Sun Jun 28 05:44:21 2020
    Hi Anton -- on Jun 28 2020 at 13:30, you wrote:

    Here's one for the non-native English Speakers:

    Discuss the difference between "Its getting colder" and "Its
    getting cooler". For bonus marks, discuss the difference between
    "Its getting..." and "It's getting...."

    I noticed the confused participle without the hint. You ought to
    have reserved it as a surprise for the first responder who missed
    the misssing apostrophe:

    Yes, but there's more in that question! :-)



    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Sun Jun 28 18:15:56 2020

    Hi, Dallas Hinton -> All!
    I read your message from 28.06.2020 01:15

    Here's one for the non-native English Speakers:

    Discuss the difference between "Its getting colder" and "Its
    getting cooler". For bonus marks, discuss the difference
    between "Its getting..." and "It's getting...."


    "Its getting" probably can also be treated as a gerund phrase.

    "Several hundred years ago the climate became colder. Its getting colder prompted Vikings to leave Greenland."

    No comment about cold/cool. ;)

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Jun 30 20:46:13 2020
    Hi, Dallas! Recently you wrote in a message to Anton Shepelev:

    Its ceasing to rain prompted our closing our umbrellas.

    Or should it be folding or furling?

    All three terms are functionally synonymous, although
    the two you suggest are more formal, imo. And to be more
    pedantic, one folds a newspaper, but furls an umbrella. :-)


    Also being pedantic, I think of the businessman in London who never opens his neatly furled umbrella because it would require so much time & effort to restore the thing to its original condition whereas many people around these parts don't seem to bother trying. The examples in my GAGE CANADIAN DICTIONARY suggest to me that "furl" is more formal, because they pertain to flags & sails as well... and there are prescribed rituals associated with all of the above.

    Since I'm not familiar with the rituals involving flags & sails but I am the sort of person who enjoys reading dictionaries in order to get down to the nitty gritty, I see that my CANADIAN OXFORD defines "furl" as meaning "roll up and secure". That's enough input for neophytes like me. WRT umbrellas what folks do in other places may depend on how heavily, how often, and for how long it's likely to rain. On the basis of our experience with tents I don't roll up & secure an umbrella for more than a short time unless I know it's dry.... :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to All on Wed Jul 1 12:42:58 2020
    Hi All -- on Jun 28 2020 at 01:17, I wrote:

    Here's one for the non-native English Speakers:

    Discuss the difference between "It's getting colder" and "It's getting cooler".

    For bonus marks (Native speakers of English included), discuss the
    difference between "Its
    getting..." and "It's getting...."

    So we got this part right, but missed the other part -- the difference
    between "cooler" and "colder".

    Anyone want to take a shot at this part? :-)


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Thu Jul 2 09:09:18 2020
    Hi, Dallas Hinton - All!
    I read your message from 01.07.2020 12:42

    So we got this part right, but missed the other part -- the
    difference between "cooler" and "colder".

    Anyone want to take a shot at this part? :-)

    IMHO cooler is more mild than colder.

    Today is cooler than yesterday.
    Today is colder than yesterday.

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Jul 2 12:25:57 2020
    Hi Alexander -- on Jul 02 2020 at 09:09, you wrote:

    IMHO cooler is more mild than colder.

    YES! That's the issue. What actually feels "cold" is subjective, but the implication is that whatever is going on feels cooler (i.e. a bit
    colder) or feels colder (i.e. a lot colder).

    Well done!!


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Sat Jul 4 23:14:10 2020
    Ardith Hinton - Dallas Hinton:

    Also being pedantic, I think of the businessman in
    London who never opens his neatly furled umbrella because it
    would require so much time & effort to restore the thing to its
    original condition whereas many people around these parts don't
    seem to bother trying.

    Being one of such men, I know what you mean. Luckily, my father
    taught me to furl an umbrella nice and tidy in a jiffy, so now I
    feel a quiet superiority over people I meet with poorly furled
    umbrellas. Come! Even clerks in fashion boutiques can't furl them
    as well as I do!

    The examples in my GAGE CANADIAN DICTIONARY suggest to me that
    "furl" is more formal, because they pertain to flags & sails as
    well... and there are prescribed rituals associated with all of
    the above.

    Thanks. That is the feeling I received from the sound of the word.


    Since I'm not familiar with the rituals involving
    flags & sails but I am the sort of person who enjoys reading
    dictionaries in order to get down to the nitty gritty, I see that
    my CANADIAN OXFORD defines "furl" as meaning "roll up and
    secure".

    Does really "roll up" an umbrealla?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Jul 4 23:19:06 2020
    Alexander Koryagin - Dallas Hinton:

    "Its getting" probably can also be treated as a gerund phrase.

    "Several hundred years ago the climate became colder. Its getting
    colder prompted Vikings to leave Greenland."

    I can't comment on your terminology, but your example is a good one.
    This pattern makes the composition of complicated sentences almost
    too easy, so I try to avoid it as meticulously as I do the clumsy
    phrase "the fact that".

    No comment about cold/cool. ;)

    Why, my examples were intended to demostrate the difference. `cool'
    is associated with a pleasant relief from heat.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Jul 10 12:09:22 2020
    I asked:

    Does [one] really "roll up" an umbrealla?

    Yes. Roald Dahl uses "roll up" in his stories.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Jul 22 21:52:24 2020
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Also being pedantic, I think of the businessman in London
    who never opens his neatly furled umbrella because it would
    require so much time & effort to restore the thing to its
    original condition whereas many people around these parts
    don't seem to bother trying.

    Being one of such men, I know what you mean. Luckily, my
    father taught me to furl an umbrella nice and tidy in a
    jiffy, so now I feel a quiet superiority over people I
    meet with poorly furled umbrellas.


    Mine is reasonably neat, but not up to London standards. :-)



    Even clerks in fashion boutiques can't furl them as well
    as I do!


    On the basis of my own experience, I'm not surprised. If you hadn't already acquired this skill I'd recommend consulting the folks at a traditional haberdashery which offers "men's furnishings" or "gentlemen's apparel".... :-Q



    I see that my CANADIAN OXFORD defines "furl" as meaning
    "roll up and secure".

    Does really "roll up" an umbrealla?


    I'd say so. Once closed it can be rolled around the equivalent of a tent pole... officially known as the "shaft"... and secured by a matching piece of cloth with snap fasteners or Velcro or whatever on both ends. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)