• They knows?

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Tue Feb 26 08:40:06 2019
    Hi, all!

    From Paulo Coelho, The Althemist:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    "Why would a king be talking with a shepherd?" the boy asked, awed
    and embarrassed.
    "For several reasons. But let's say that the most important is that
    you have succeeded in discovering your Personal Legend."
    The boy didn't know what a person's "Personal Legend" was.
    "It's what you have always wanted to accomplish. Everyone, when they
    are young, knows what their Personal Legend is.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    What about the last sentence?

    Should it be "Everyone, when he is young, knows"
    or
    "All people, when they are young know..."

    If we use "they", we imply many people? IMHO, it is incompatible "are" and "knows".

    Bye, all!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Michael Dukelsky@2:5020/1042 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Feb 27 16:07:30 2019
    Hello Alexander,

    Tuesday February 26 2019, Alexander Koryagin wrote to All:

    From Paulo Coelho, The Althemist:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    "Why would a king be talking with a shepherd?" the boy asked,
    awed and embarrassed.
    "For several reasons. But let's say that the most important is
    that you have succeeded in discovering your Personal Legend."
    The boy didn't know what a person's "Personal Legend" was.
    "It's what you have always wanted to accomplish. Everyone, when
    they are young, knows what their Personal Legend is.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    What about the last sentence?

    Should it be "Everyone, when he is young, knows"
    or
    "All people, when they are young know..."

    If we use "they", we imply many people? IMHO, it is incompatible "are"
    and "knows".

    I have no answer to your question, I have another question instead. :) What is the benefit of reading English translations from other languages and not books written in English? I'd understand it if the book were really a good literature. But from my point of view Althemist is not, it is more like graphomania. Throw out the nasty thing! :)

    Michael

    ... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Michael Dukelsky on Wed Feb 27 21:23:18 2019
    Hi, Michael Dukelsky !
    I read your message from 27.02.2019 16:07


    If we use "they", we imply many people? IMHO, it is
    incompatible "are" and "knows".

    I have no answer to your question, I have another question instead.
    What is the benefit of reading English translations from other
    languages and not books written in English? I'd understand it if
    the book were really a good literature. But from my point of view Althemist is not, it is more like graphomania. Throw out the nasty
    thing!

    I also have a feeling that the book success is the product of a drastic promotion campaign, but the book is a present, and as people say, "one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth". ;-) Besides, I like English reading just for sake of English. I look at the phrase construction, punctuation marks etc. The process gives me some pleasure itself.

    PS: It was "The Alchemist" of course.

    Bye, Michael!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Feb 27 16:25:50 2019
    Hi Alexander -- on Feb 27 2019 at 21:23, you wrote:

    say, "one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth". ;-) Besides, I
    like English reading just for sake of English. I look at the phrase construction, punctuation marks etc. The process gives me some
    pleasure itself.

    I would argue that while reading a translation may provide access to an otherwise hard to
    read/acquire text, a translation is NOT the text to reference when trying to learn correct English usage!


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Thu Feb 28 12:48:26 2019
    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 27.02.2019 17:25

    say, "one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth". ;-) Besides,
    I like English reading just for sake of English. I look at the
    phrase construction, punctuation marks etc. The process gives me
    some pleasure itself.

    I would argue that while reading a translation may provide access
    to an otherwise hard to read/acquire text, a translation is NOT the
    text to reference when trying to learn correct English usage!

    Although, I found in Wikipedia information that "they" can be used as single pronoun:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Singular _they_
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    _SINGULAR THEY_ is the use in English of the pronoun _they_ or its inflected or derivative forms, _them_, _their_, _theirs_, and _themselves_ (or _themself_), as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an unspecified antecedent, as in sentences such as:

    "_The patient_ should be told at the outset how much _they_ will be required to pay."
    "But _a journalist_ should not be forced to reveal _their_ sources."

    The singular _they_ had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after plural _they_. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since then, though it has become the target of criticism since the late-19th century. Its use in formal English has become more common with the trend toward gender-neutral language, though most style guides continue to proscribe it.

    In the early 21st century, use of singular _they_ with known individuals has been promoted for those who do not identify as male or female:

    "This is my friend, _Jay_. I met _them_ at work."
    ----- The end of the citation -----


    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Feb 28 21:52:42 2019
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    "Why would a king be talking with a shepherd?" the
    boy asked, awed and embarrassed.
    "For several reasons. But let's say that the most
    important is that you have succeeded in discovering
    your Personal Legend."
    The boy didn't know what a person's "Personal Legend"
    was. "It's what you have always wanted to accomplish.
    Everyone, when they are young, knows what their Personal
    Legend is.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    What about the last sentence?

    Should it be "Everyone, when he is young, knows"


    In formal English, yes.



    or "All people, when they are young know..."


    With the addition of a comma after "young", this would be correct. It doesn't have quite the same impact from a stylistic POV, however.... :-)



    If we use "they", we imply many people? IMHO, it is
    incompatible "are" and "knows".


    Native speakers often find the grammar confusing because "every" seems to imply "many"... but what matters is that "one" (or whatever else comes right after "every") is singular. The CBC lightens up its ads for a new series named CORONER by saying "Every body has a story". In the 20th century we had various songs with lines such as

    Everybody loves a baby

    Everything is beautiful, in its own way

    ... and I've just discovered umpteen variations on

    Every good man needs a good woman.


    Everyone knows (!) what to do re subject/verb agreement here. As soon as personal pronouns are introduced, however, the situation is more complex. I think what you're seeing is that novels written during the last 50 years may be aimed at a different audience than older works. Using "they" to refer to males & females alike... regardless of number... is the popular choice nowadays. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 4 23:08:40 2019
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Paulo Coelho:
    Everyone, when they are young, knows what their
    Personal Legend is.
    Should it be "Everyone, when he is young, knows"
    [...]
    Although, I found in Wikipedia information that "they"
    can be used as single pronoun:

    Right you are, but I accept only two cases of such usage:

    1. General -- when the pronoun refers to persons of
    either sex, as in Coelho's sentence, and

    2. Circumlocutive -- when the speaker does not know the
    sex of the person in question or wants to conceal it.

    Remember also Cab Calloway's "Everybody eats when they come
    to my house."

    In the early 21st century, use of singular _they_ with
    known individuals has been promoted for those who do not
    identify as male or female:
    "This is my friend, _Jay_. I met _them_ at work."

    They had better have saved it for schizophrenics with
    multiple-personality disorder.

    With the preceding comma, Jay is the person addressed. Omit
    it and it will be the name of the friend.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Michael Dukelsky on Mon Mar 4 23:27:52 2019
    Michael Dukelsky:

    What is the benefit of reading English translations from
    other languages and not books written in English?

    I sometimes read translations from my native Russian that I
    may better translate myself (double meaning intended).

    I'd understand it if the book were really a good
    literature. But from my point of view Althemist is not,
    it is more like graphomania.

    One aphorism from The Alchemist, "Once you make a decision,
    the universe conspires to make it happen", is often
    attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson, but I did not find it in
    any of his essays. If Coelho wrote it himself, he is not so
    bad at all at all!

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Mar 4 13:42:05 2019
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Dallas Hinton:

    I found in Wikipedia information that "they" can be
    used as single pronoun:

    _SINGULAR THEY_ is the use in English of the pronoun
    _they_ or its inflected or derivative forms, _them_,
    _their_, _theirs_, and _themselves_ (or _themself_),
    as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It
    typically occurs with an unspecified antecedent, as
    in sentences such as:

    "_The patient_ should be told at the outset how much
    _they_ will be required to pay."
    "But _a journalist_ should not be forced to reveal
    _their_ sources."


    I can see some justification for it here, because it is easier than writing "s/he" and "him/her" or trying to reason with a person who feels their (!) gender is being ignored although they don't notice when the shoe is on the other foot. My CANADIAN OXFORD, however, lists "themself" as "disputed". :-)



    The singular _they_ had emerged by the 14th century,
    about a century after plural _they_. It has been
    commonly employed in everyday English ever since then,
    though it has become the target of criticism since the
    late-19th century.


    Hmm. Fowler's cites some evidence in support of this idea, but I'm doubtful "they" was commonly used as a gender-neutral pronoun between the late 1900's & the 1960's or early 1970's... when the feminists adopted it... except maybe when people thought the government should fix something. Typically when grammarians voice an objection they encounter more popular resistance.... :-Q



    Its use in formal English has become more common with
    the trend toward gender-neutral language,


    It has become more common in recent years, but not because the mood at the time of its resurgence took into account that our ancestors knew things we might well pay attention to. Quite the contrary... Jerry Rubin, e.g., made headlines when he advised other folks not to trust anybody over 30. I suppose they must have followed his advice because he doesn't make headlines now. ;-)



    though most style guides continue to proscribe it.


    I would argue that if "most style guides continue to proscribe it", it's not formal English. There are degrees of formality, however... and I see that, in general, academic standards are less formal than they once were. :-)



    In the early 21st century, use of singular _they_ with
    known individuals has been promoted for those who do
    not identify as male or female:

    "This is my friend, _Jay_. I met _them_ at work."


    When introductions are being made it is customary to add a scrap of information giving the other person a clue as to what might be a good topic to begin a conversation with. While I realize this is a hypothetical example I'm inclined to think it would be enough to say e.g. "We met at work" or "Jay is a computer programmer". If I know Jay well enough I may be privy to information s/he's not ready to share with the world at large, but referring to the friend who is sitting or standing within arms' reach as "they" is AFAIC like making a public announcement that his/her gender identity is nobody else's business. I am reminded of a colleague who insisted on being addressed as "Ms." years ago. She claimed her marital status was nobody else's business... until she married and insisted on being addressed as "Mrs.", that is. Playing fancy tricks with the language makes others more determined to find out what one is hiding. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Mar 5 09:19:38 2019
    Hi, Ardith Hinton : Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 04.03.2019 14:42

    I found in Wikipedia information that "they" can be used as single
    pronoun:

    _SINGULAR THEY_ is the use in English of the pronoun _they_ or its
    inflected or derivative forms, _them_, _their_, _theirs_,
    and _themselves_ (or _themself_), as an epicene (gender-neutral)
    singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an unspecified
    antecedent, as in sentences such as:

    "_The patient_ should be told at the outset how much _they_ will
    be required to pay." "But _a journalist_ should not be forced to
    reveal _their_ sources."

    I can see some justification for it here, because it is easier than writing "s/he" and "him/her" or trying to reason with a person who
    feels their (!) gender is being ignored although they don't notice
    when the shoe is on the other foot. My CANADIAN OXFORD, however,
    lists "themself" as "disputed". :-)

    I remember that in Russia a tsar used plural pronouns for a single person. He wrote his decrees in the following way: "We, the great tsar of Russia, declare..."

    The singular _they_ had emerged by the 14th century, about a
    century after plural _they_. It has been commonly employed in
    everyday English ever since then, though it has become the target
    of criticism since the late-19th century.

    Hmm. Fowler's cites some evidence in support of this idea, but I'm doubtful "they" was commonly used as a gender-neutral pronoun between the late 1900's & the 1960's or early 1970's... when the feminists adopted it... except maybe when people thought the government should fix something. Typically when grammarians voice
    an objection they encounter more popular resistance.... :-Q

    It is difficult to fight with people when they have a bad habit. I remember a thing from Pygmalion, by Bernard Shaw:
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    HIGGINS. How the devil do I know what's to become of you? What does it
    matter what becomes of you?

    LIZA. You don't care. I know you don't care. You wouldn't care if I was
    dead. I'm nothing to you -- not so much as them slippers.

    HIGGINS [thundering] THOSE slippers.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead of _those_. ;-) It is not a kind of error a Russian could make. :)

    Its use in formal English has become more common with the trend
    toward gender-neutral language,

    It has become more common in recent years, but not because the mood
    at the time of its resurgence took into account that our ancestors
    knew things we might well pay attention to. Quite the contrary...
    Jerry Rubin, e.g., made headlines when he advised other folks not
    to trust anybody over 30. I suppose they must have followed his
    advice because he doesn't make headlines now. ;-)

    I imagine what does a foreign student think when he hears the sentence like the first sentence in last paragraph. ;) After reading it ten times I think I understood what you meant. ;=)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Mar 5 09:29:24 2019
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 05.03.2019 00:08

    In the early 21st century, use of singular _they_ with known
    individuals has been promoted for those who do not identify as
    male or female: "This is my friend, _Jay_. I met _them_ at work."

    They had better have saved it for schizophrenics with multiple- personality disorder.

    With the preceding comma, Jay is the person addressed. Omit it and
    it will be the name of the friend.

    IMHO, with the preceding comma or without _Jay_ is the person (friend) that is being introduced by the speaker. What does Ardith think about it? ;-)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Tue Mar 5 09:36:06 2019
    Hi, Anton Shepelev : Michael Dukelsky!
    I read your message from 05.03.2019 00:27

    What is the benefit of reading English translations from other
    languages and not books written in English?

    I sometimes read translations from my native Russian that I may
    better translate myself (double meaning intended).

    I'd understand it if the book were really a good literature. But
    from my point of view Althemist is not, it is more like
    graphomania.

    One aphorism from The Alchemist, "Once you make a decision, the universe conspires to make it happen", is often attributed to Ralph
    Waldo Emerson, but I did not find it in any of his essays. If
    Coelho wrote it himself, he is not so bad at all at all!

    In my opinion, the phrase is a sweet lie for those who wants hear it. It is unnatural, as the idea that a person can freely buy a flock of sheep and graze them in any part of the country... without being beaten by the land owners and local shepherds. ;-)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Mar 16 16:52:04 2019
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I remember that in Russia a tsar used plural pronouns for
    a single person. He wrote his decrees in the following way:
    "We, the great tsar of Russia, declare..."


    This usage... generally limited to reigning monarchs... is known in English as "the royal we". Queen Victoria commented "We are not amused" on an occasion when someone told a risqu‚ joke within her hearing. I understand the original idea was that the monarch spoke on behalf of his/her country.... :-)



    It is difficult to fight with people when they have a bad
    habit. I remember a thing from Pygmalion, by Bernard Shaw:
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    HIGGINS. How the devil do I know what's to become of you?
    What does it matter what becomes of you?

    LIZA. You don't care. I know you don't care. You wouldn't
    care if I was dead. I'm nothing to you -- not so much as
    them slippers.

    HIGGINS [thundering] THOSE slippers.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead of
    _those_. ;-) It is not a kind of error a Russian could make.


    No... it's the sort of error a lower-class native speaker who'd had little or no formal education would have made at the time of writing. Higgins conducted an experiment to find out whether a young adult who was motivated to learn would be able to change habitual speech patterns. Both he & his student seem to have reverted to old habits when they were emotionally upset.... :-))

    Those who are not native speakers of English tend to make different errors. People from Russia have difficulty with articles, for the same reason people from China have difficulty with plurals: the rules are a bit different in their language. I see no need to pluralize "broccoli", e.g., because it is plural already... yet I would say "a bunch of grapes". When I visit the local greengrocery I understand that from a Chinese POV it might be more appropriate to say "one potato, two potato, three potato" (i.e. a counting game used in my childhood). From my POV as an advanced student of English it's easier to sort out many of the apparent inconsistencies with a dictionary which explains what language xxx came from & how it was spelled in this language at the time. :-)



    Its use in formal English has become more common with the
    trend toward gender-neutral language,

    It has become more common in recent years, but not because
    the mood at the time of its resurgence took into account
    that our ancestors knew things we might well pay attention
    to. Quite the contrary... Jerry Rubin, e.g., made headlines
    when he advised other folks not to trust anybody over 30. I
    suppose they must have followed his advice because he doesn't
    make headlines now. ;-)

    I imagine what does a foreign student think when he hears
    the sentence like the first sentence in last paragraph. ;)
    After reading it ten times I think I understood what you
    meant. ;=)


    Good point. Alexander has been with us for over a decade, he reads widely, and I know that if he doesn't understand what I'm babbling about he'll say so... but I don't mean to leave him & other folks behind in the dust. :-)

    It appears that native speakers of English saw a need for a gender- neutral singular pronoun centuries ago & began using "they" for the purpose in colloquial speech. Some grammarian(s) disapproved. But some later writers... notably George Bernard Shaw & Winston Churchill... questioned what they'd been taught about how things "should" be done. I suppose everyone wants to improve on what previous generations have accomplished. Sometimes there may be a hint of adolescent rebellion... most evident in the late 1960's & early 1970's when teenagers & young adults hoped to improve on what their parents & grandparents had done. I've yet to hear anyone admit to building on ideas which came to us during the Renaissance, and which we've adopted with a few minor changes. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Mar 17 13:33:10 2019
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 16.03.2019 17:52

    It is difficult to fight with people when they have a bad habit. I
    remember a thing from Pygmalion, by Bernard Shaw:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    HIGGINS. How the devil do I know what's to become of you? What
    does it matter what becomes of you?
    LIZA. You don't care. I know you don't care. You wouldn't care if
    I was dead. I'm nothing to you -- not so much as them slippers.
    HIGGINS [thundering] THOSE slippers.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead
    of _those_. It is not a kind of error a Russian could make.

    No... it's the sort of error a lower-class native speaker who'd had
    little or no formal education would have made at the time of writing. Higgins conducted an experiment to find out whether a
    young adult who was motivated to learn would be able to change habitual speech patterns. Both he & his student seem to have reverted to old habits when they were emotionally upset.... :-))

    Well, _them_ is well known pronoun, who can we mix it up with _those_?. Can I, for instance, say, "I gave _them_ _them_ books"? Not of course. It is not a matter of education, IMHO. ;)

    Those who are not native speakers of English tend to make different errors. People from Russia have difficulty with articles, for the
    same reason people from China have difficulty with plurals: the
    rules are a bit different in their language. I see no need to pluralize "broccoli", e.g., because it is plural already... yet I
    would say "a bunch of grapes". When I visit the local greengrocery
    I understand that from a Chinese POV it might be more appropriate
    to say "one potato, two potato, three potato" (i.e. a counting game
    used in my childhood). From my POV as an advanced student of English it's easier to sort out many of the apparent inconsistencies with a dictionary which explains what language xxx
    came from & how it was spelled in this language at the time.

    But Eliza got her English with her mother's milk. We can admit that she had an ignoble pronunciation, but mixing _them_ and _those_ is too much, IMHO.

    Its use in formal English has become more common with the trend
    toward gender-neutral language,

    It has become more common in recent years, but not because the
    mood at the time of its resurgence took into account that our
    ancestors knew things we might well pay attention to. Quite the
    contrary... Jerry Rubin, e.g., made headlines when he advised
    other folks not to trust anybody over 30. I suppose they must have
    followed his advice because he doesn't make headlines now.

    I imagine what does a foreign student think when he hears the
    sentence like the first sentence in last paragraph. After reading
    it ten times I think I understood what you meant. ;=)

    Good point. Alexander has been with us for over a decade, he reads widely, and I know that if he doesn't understand what I'm babbling
    about he'll say so... but I don't mean to leave him & other folks
    behind in the dust.

    Well, in reality, I like when you write something complicated and nativenglishly. ;=) But when a person has nothing to say to the point he usually starts carping at other person. ;)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thu Mar 28 22:56:19 2019
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead
    of _those_. It is not a kind of error a Russian could make.

    No... it's the sort of error a lower-class native speaker
    who'd had little or no formal education would have made at
    the time of writing.

    [...]

    Well, _them_ is well known pronoun, who can we mix it up
    with _those_?.


    According to FOWLER'S this usage seems to have been quite common in the 16th-19th centuries, but was "downgraded" in the 20th century & is regarded as "dialectal or illiterate" at present. It may not technically be an error... OTOH, Higgins was attempting to teach standard English as it was used among the well-educated middle-class people he'd grown up with & worked with as an adult. While the English language is always growing & changing, formal English remains heavily influenced by late-Victorian grammarians who wanted to tidy it up. :-)



    Can I, for instance, say, "I gave _them_ _them_ books"?


    I could say (that) that sentence may have been regarded as correct, at one time... but under normal circumstances I'd avoid using the same word for two different purposes within the same sentence.



    It is not a matter of education, IMHO. ;)


    To some extent I think it is. I had to make a conscious effort not to improve on the wording of my own example because although it's grammatically correct it sounds awkward. As an educated person I can easily think of various alternatives... apart from leaving out the first "that"... which would be a lot more pleasing to the ear. More education -> more choices. Since English isn't your native language you may have fewer choices.
    Like the majority of Russians I've met here, though, you have a finely tuned ear & you understand the grammar
    ... both of which can be put to good use in discussions like this. :-)



    But Eliza got her English with her mother's milk.


    Uh-huh. If we reckon Eliza was born during the 1890's & her mother was born +/- twenty years earlier... a not unreasonable assumption, IMHO, since I was informed by an older female relative that the onset of puberty around the 50th parallel of latitude occurred much later in those days than it does now... Eliza's mother would have taught her to speak in a manner which was regarded as quite acceptable during the 1870's. I don't know precisely when or how the use of "them" as a demonstrative pronoun fell into disfavour, but I imagine neither Eliza nor her mother would have studied any academic debates about it.... :-))



    We can admit that she had an ignoble pronunciation,


    ... Higgins' chief concern, at least initially.



    but mixing _them_ and _those_ is too much, IMHO.


    Whatever its official status is nowadays, I wouldn't do it.... :-)



    I like when you write something complicated and
    nativenglishly. ;=)


    I'm delighted to hear that, because I imagine my readers will learn most if I keep stretching the limits of their understanding... [chuckle].



    But when a person has nothing to say to the point
    he usually starts carping at other person. ;)


    I've noticed such goings-on elsewhere too. As often as not someone catches them at it, however, and says "I see you've run out of arguments". :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)