• Food for Thought

    From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anybody Interested on Sun Jan 20 23:50:17 2019
    Thanks to Dallas for sharing this article:


    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20160908
    -the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know


    I'm still chuckling over it, and I've requested the book from the library. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Jan 21 18:56:31 2019
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 01/20/2019 11:50 PM, you wrote to Anybody Interested:

    Thanks to Dallas for sharing this article:

    -the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know

    I'm still chuckling over it, and I've requested the book from the
    library. :-)

    And that is why I've never feared purple people eaters. :-P

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: So Many Messages! So Little Time! (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Sat Jan 26 23:52:53 2019
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    Thanks to Dallas for sharing this article:

    -the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know

    I'm still chuckling over it, and I've requested the book
    from the library. :-)

    And that is why I've never feared purple people eaters. :-P


    Or ferocious fire-breathing dragons, or enormous meat-eating dinosaurs?

    Now that you mention it... the lyrics say "a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater", IIRC. I'm not quite sure how these added words would fit the theory, unless one considers them as +/- pertaining to shape, but the whole kit & kaboodle sounds right AFAIC. You've reminded me of another song here too
    ... i.e. the one about an "itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow polka dot bikini". It seems to me that with all of the above we're not afaid of them because, if they ever actually existed, they don't pose any real danger to us... and because, if the series is very long &/or very silly, it makes us laugh.

    Thankyou! I hope other native speakers will join the fun. I also hope somebody will have noticed that I used "a"... not "an"... with "one-eyed". ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Sun Jan 27 18:45:39 2019
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 01/26/2019 11:52 PM, you wrote:

    And that is why I've never feared purple people eaters. :-P
    Or ferocious fire-breathing dragons, or enormous meat-eating dinosaurs?

    The order of adjectives supports an old joke: I'm safe because I'm not purple.

    Now that you mention it... the lyrics say "a one-eyed
    one-horned flying purple people eater", IIRC. I'm not quite sure how these added words would fit the theory, unless one considers them as +/- pertaining to shape, but the whole kit & kaboodle sounds right AFAIC. You've reminded me of another song here too
    .. i.e. the one about an "itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow polka dot
    bikini". It seems to me that with all of the above we're not afaid of them because, if they ever actually existed, they don't pose any real danger to us... and because, if the series is very long &/or very silly, it makes us laugh.

    Holy mackerel! There's some wild old memories you're digging up there. So, was it a white bikini? ;)

    Thankyou! I hope other native speakers will join the fun. I also hope somebody will have noticed that I used "a"... not "an"... with "one-eyed". ;-)

    We probably accepted it as being correct without making a specific check. OTOH, I note with interest that you a use a single word 'thank you'. Is that a Canadian thing?

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: We miss you Freddy! (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Wed Jan 30 17:25:24 2019
    Ardith Hinton to Paul Quinn:

    I also hope somebody will have noticed that I used
    "a"... not "an"... with "one-eyed".

    What is unusual about it? "one" starts with a sound that
    has a good contrast with, a seques comfortably from, a
    vowel. Similarly, we do not say "What an wonderful world".
    It is an hunderd times more lip- and ear-straining.

    ---
    * Origin: ** nntps://fidonews.mine.nu ** Finland ** (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Mon Feb 4 15:40:06 2019
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    And that is why I've never feared purple people
    eaters. :-P

    Or ferocious fire-breathing dragons, or enormous
    meat-eating dinosaurs?

    The order of adjectives supports an old joke: I'm
    safe because I'm not purple.


    Ah... good one! I hadn't heard it before. :-)



    You've reminded me of another song here too... i.e.
    the one about an "itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow polka
    dot bikini". It seems to me that with all of the above
    we're not afaid of them because, if they ever actually
    existed, they don't pose any real danger to us... and
    because, if the series is very long &/or very silly,
    it makes us laugh.

    Holy mackerel! There's some wild old memories you're
    digging up there.


    I may be showing my age... but I know Jenny's phone number too. I have a joke for you which I found in the READER'S DIGEST years ago. According to the author his grandparents say "gramophone", his parents say "phonograph", he says "record player"... and his kids say "what's a record player?" Our kid knows a lot of words others her age don't know, including the above. When she was younger I often had to dummify my language to talk to other people's kids. But nowadays she has friends who are intelligent enough to recognize what they don't know & aren't ashamed to admit it. I love students like that... [grin].



    So, was it a white bikini? ;)


    I was wondering about the same thing until I remembered that polka dots & coin dots (which were larger & typically worn by little old ladies 'way back when) were almost invariably white in those days. As I understand it the bathing suit in question was probably bright yellow with white polka dots, and the teenager who was wearing it desperately wanted to sport the latest fashion from Europe but wasn't quite ready to do so on a public beach.... :-Q

    Anyway, I've been working on a theory that WRT clothing & textiles we generally mention the background colour or predominant colour & add details about the pattern or weave which indirectly provide more information as to any other colours which may or may not be present... e.g. blue (denim) jeans, grey tweed sports jacket, white damask linen tablecloth, yellow paisley scarf. The colour -> material sequence outlined by Mark Forsyth works there as well. :-)



    Thankyou! I hope other native speakers will join the fun.
    I also hope somebody will have noticed that I used "a"...
    not "an"... with "one-eyed". ;-)

    We probably accepted it as being correct without making
    a specific check.


    I take that as a vote of confidence. Some native speakers are not handicapped by grade three rules which say "an" must be used before a vowel... or which fail to explain why "an" may be used before words beginning with "h", except when it isn't. I didn't notice what I'd done until I re-read it later. But I see how it might be confusing to other folks here, and I think I've come up with a logical explanation for it if anybody needs one.... :-)



    OTOH, I note with interest that you a use a single word
    'thank you'. Is that a Canadian thing?


    You've opened a nice can of worms there, my friend. Give yourself another gold star & fasten your seat belt... [chuckle].

    In short: this spelling has been traced to Australia, Canada, the UK, and the US. If you prefer to be on the safe side, "thank you" is the most widely accepted version... but many of its proponents seem to think you should hyphenate it if you're using it as a noun or an adjective. Like a few writers on the Internet, however, I was taught to spell "thankyou" as one word... I've been doing it for over thirty years... and until now I wasn't aware that it is often regarded as incorrect. Some folks see it as the wave of the future, and FOWLER'S notes that it is becoming increasingly common in private letters & on restaurant receipts. In formal writing it is definitely not recommended. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Tue Feb 5 11:23:16 2019
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 04 Feb 19 15:40, you wrote to me:

    You've reminded me of another song here too... i.e.
    the one about an "itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny yellow polka
    dot bikini".
    So, was it a white bikini? ;)

    I was wondering about the same thing until I remembered
    that polka dots & coin dots (which were larger & typically worn by
    little old ladies 'way back when) were almost invariably white in
    those days. As I understand it the bathing suit in question was
    probably bright yellow with white polka dots, and the teenager who was wearing it desperately wanted to sport the latest fashion from Europe
    but wasn't quite ready to do so on a public beach.... :-Q

    Really? Nah, can't be yellow on yellow. (Do you see my point? I'm safe from polka dot bikinis too.) I'm thinking a red or a blue always makes a great combo with yellow. (Yellow looks really nice as a 'trim' on the bikinis worn by the Chinese beach volleyball contestants, being either red or blue.) The safe standby is white as I mentioned, of course. :)

    OTOH, I note with interest that you a use a single word
    'thank you'. Is that a Canadian thing?

    You've opened a nice can of worms there, my friend. Give yourself another gold star & fasten your seat belt... [chuckle].

    Oops. It's a recent point of interest. I queried myself and mistakenly checked a dictionary (singular, and may have been via uncle Google).

    In short: this spelling has been traced to Australia,
    Canada, the UK, and the US.

    Oh, dear.

    In formal writing it is definitely not recommended. :-)

    That is what I like to see. Thank you. ;)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... A clear conscience is merely the result of bad memory.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Feb 6 15:42:02 2019
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I also hope somebody will have noticed that I used "a"...
    not "an"... with "one-eyed".

    What is unusual about it? "one" starts with a sound that
    has a good contrast with, a seques comfortably from, a
    vowel. Similarly, we do not say "What an wonderful world".


    Exactly. What matters is the initial sound of the word... not the spelling... and "one" sounds like "won". Words beginning with "h" generally follow the same principle, but there are a few added complications.

    While you understand how the system works, others may not. I hear many younger folk nowadays saying things like "a elephant".... :-Q



    It is an hunderd times more lip- and ear-straining.


    I assumed you were joking because this remark immediately followed upon another example of how "an" may sound cumbersome if used where it isn't really needed. Either way, however, I think some clarification is in order. AFAIK it's not used with "human" or hundred", except maybe in dialects which tend to suppress the initial /h/. It appears with "hundred" in two examples from the 17th century I found just now & until about twenty years ago it was used with "historic"... most notably by historians, in formal communication. With "herb" the situation is less clear because there doesn't seem to be any general agreement as to whether or not one should enunciate the /h/.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Feb 11 22:38:36 2019
    Ardith Hinton:

    While you understand how the system works, others may
    not. I hear many younger folk nowadays saying things
    like "a elephant".... :-Q

    Well, children have a chance of improvement. Meseems I
    remember that in "Dennis the Menace" (ashamed to have
    watched movie on Russian TV :) the little boy made that
    error when accosted by the thief as to what it was he held
    in his hands. "A apple" -- answered the boy.

    Similarly, we do not say "What an wonderful world". It
    is an hunderd times more lip- and ear-straining.
    I assumed you were joking because this remark
    immediately followed upon another example of how "an"
    may sound cumbersome if used where it isn't really
    needed.

    No, I was serious. I think "an hundered" survided into the
    late Victorian era with some writers, but I am in the shape
    to you quotations.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Anton Shepelev on Mon Feb 11 22:52:44 2019
    I have been skipping words lately:

    ashamed to have watched movie on Russian TV :)

    that movie

    I think "an hundered" survided into the late Victorian
    era with some writers, but I am in the shape to you
    quotations.

    not in the shape to give you quotations.

    What malady is it -- dyslogia?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Wed Feb 20 16:12:03 2019
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    [re "yellow polka dot bikini"]
    So, was it a white bikini? ;)

    I was wondering about the same thing until I remembered
    that polka dots & coin dots (which were larger & typically
    worn by little old ladies 'way back when) were almost
    invariably white in those days. As I understand it the
    bathing suit in question was probably bright yellow with
    white polka dots, and the teenager who was wearing it
    desperately wanted to sport the latest fashion from Europe
    but wasn't quite ready to do so on a public beach.... :-Q

    Really? Nah, can't be yellow on yellow. (Do you see my
    point? I'm safe from polka dot bikinis too.)


    I suppose it could be if there were two different shades of yellow. What I was thinking you meant, however, was along the lines of your joke about the purple people eater. Is this critter purple... or does he/she/it eat only purple people? Is the background yellow... &/or are the polka dots yellow? I understand there are various theories WRT the grammatical analysis of a string like this. When I compare them to my own experience with people & polka dots, Mark Forsyth's explanation is a lot more straightforward & practical AFAIC. I would be interested in seeing what he can do with a string describing a person such as an attractive red-haired female English horn player... [chuckle].



    I'm thinking a red or a blue always makes a great combo
    with yellow. (Yellow looks really nice as a 'trim' on the
    bikinis worn by the Chinese beach volleyball contestants,
    being either red or blue.)


    Yes, WRT paint & fabric dye they are the primary colours... or so I was taught in art class at elementary school. WRT light things are different. I'm still trying to figure out what's happening on my computer monitor. Years ago it seemed few people understood terms like "cyan" & "magenta"... and those who did were heavily influenced by fashion moguls who worked with fabric. ;-)



    OTOH, I note with interest that you a use a single word
    'thank you'. Is that a Canadian thing?

    You've opened a nice can of worms there, my friend. Give
    yourself another gold star & fasten your seat belt... [chuckle].

    Oops. It's a recent point of interest. I queried myself and
    mistakenly checked a dictionary (singular, and may have been
    via uncle Google).


    You certainly got me interested there. I checked four dictionaries which we have here at home, then turned to Uncle Google & FOWLER'S for further clarification. I don't need to do the latter when I'm 99% sure I'm right & my OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY, which is designed specifically for people who want to communicate with others in an international context, agrees with me. Every dictionary has its own strengths & weaknesses, however... and through years of practice I know what to expect from my favourite four in many cases. I'm glad you realize one dictionary isn't always enough. Not everybody does. With the help of Uncle Google, we are no longer limited to what we & the public library have on our bookshelves. But we still need to ask... as I advised my students to do years ago... who is this person & why should I take his her word for it? With material we find on the Internet, we may not know who the author is. :-)



    In short: this spelling has been traced to Australia,
    Canada, the UK, and the US.

    Oh, dear.


    I understand. My comment was descriptive, but reading between the lines I take it your spelling remains the most widely accepted... [wry grin].



    In formal writing it is definitely not recommended. :-)

    That is what I like to see. Thank you. ;)


    And thanks to FOWLER'S, which I often turned to when I was a first- year teacher... and still do. I have an updated edition now, but it takes the same British no-nonsense approach the earlier edition did. For those who have the patience to wade through a much more detailed explanation than the average dictionary can offer there are a lot of concluding statements like this. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)