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    From faeychild@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 04:12:18 2021



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written

    regards
    --
    faeychild
    Running plasmashell 5.15.4 on 5.10.8-desktop-2.mga7 kernel.
    Mageia release 7 (Official) for x86_64 installed via Mageia-7-x86_64-DVD.iso


    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From David W. Hodgins@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 04:46:22 2021
    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:12:18 -0500, faeychild <faeychild@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written

    Do you mean in the order within a directory, or the order within the filesystem?

    "ls -lU" will list the files in the physical order of a directories entries.

    "ls -li|sort -n" will list the files within a directory in the order of the first
    extent taken by a file. A file may have multiple extents spread out over a file system, in random order.

    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the / filesystem in order
    of the inode of the first extent of each file.

    If the filesystem is in a lvm logical drive, it not only may be in multiple partitions within a drive, it may be spread over multiple partitions in multiple
    drives, with order depending on how they were created.

    Why do you want to find out the order?

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
    email replies.

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  • From Bit Twister@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 06:21:05 2021
    On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 15:12:18 +1100, faeychild wrote:



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written

    Well, "ls --help | grep time" would suggest it is possible.
    man ls gives a bit more information.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From Bit Twister@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 06:34:00 2021
    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:46:22 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:


    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the / filesystem in order
    of the inode of the first extent of each file.


    I would not think idnode order would be reliable in some cases.
    Take the case where there is a lot of additions/deletions which causes
    early used idones become free for later use.


    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From David W. Hodgins@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 07:47:49 2021
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 01:34:00 -0500, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:46:22 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:


    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the / filesystem in order
    of the inode of the first extent of each file.


    I would not think idnode order would be reliable in some cases.
    Take the case where there is a lot of additions/deletions which causes
    early used idones become free for later use.

    He asked for the order they were written. That can be interpreted as in the time order, or physical order. You're assuming time order, I assumed physical order. :-)

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
    email replies.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From Bit Twister@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 08:35:30 2021
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 02:47:49 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 01:34:00 -0500, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:46:22 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:


    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the / filesystem in order
    of the inode of the first extent of each file.


    I would not think idnode order would be reliable in some cases.
    Take the case where there is a lot of additions/deletions which causes
    early used idones become free for later use.

    He asked for the order they were written. That can be interpreted as in the time order, or physical order. You're assuming time order, I assumed physical order. :-)

    I hear what you are saying, but you are not hearing what I said. :)

    I posing the case of an earlier inode being reused by a more recent
    created file because the old file have been deleted.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From Jim Beard@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 15:38:02 2021
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 02:35:30 -0600, Bit Twister wrote:

    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 02:47:49 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 01:34:00 -0500, Bit Twister
    <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:46:22 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:


    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the /
    filesystem in order of the inode of the first extent of each file.


    I would not think idnode order would be reliable in some cases.
    Take the case where there is a lot of additions/deletions which causes
    early used idones become free for later use.

    He asked for the order they were written. That can be interpreted as in
    the time order, or physical order. You're assuming time order, I
    assumed physical order. :-)

    I hear what you are saying, but you are not hearing what I said. :)

    I posing the case of an earlier inode being reused by a more recent
    created file because the old file have been deleted.

    If you are looking for files in the order first created, you want
    btime from the inode, the file's creation timestamp set on file
    creation and not changed subsequently.

    Unfortunately, btime was not historically present on UNIX
    systems and is not currently supported by most Linux filesystems.

    man inode

    Cheers!

    jim b.

    --
    UNIX is not user-unfriendly, it merely expects users to be computer-
    friendly.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From William Unruh@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 16:32:26 2021
    On 2021-03-01, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 15:12:18 +1100, faeychild wrote:



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written

    That IS sorted, just on time rather than on name. It does NOT sit on the
    disk in time order either. So unsorted might rather be to sort with
    respect to starting inode, or by "which file did I come across first on
    the spinning disk".
    And then on time there are various possibilities. mtime, ctime,...


    Well, "ls --help | grep time" would suggest it is possible.
    man ls gives a bit more information.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From William Unruh@2:250/1 to All on Mon Mar 1 16:37:22 2021
    On 2021-03-01, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 02:47:49 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Mon, 01 Mar 2021 01:34:00 -0500, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Feb 2021 23:46:22 -0500, David W. Hodgins wrote:


    "tree -ifax --inodes /|sort -n" will list the files in the / filesystem in order
    of the inode of the first extent of each file.


    I would not think idnode order would be reliable in some cases.
    Take the case where there is a lot of additions/deletions which causes
    early used idones become free for later use.

    He asked for the order they were written. That can be interpreted as in the >> time order, or physical order. You're assuming time order, I assumed physical
    order. :-)

    I hear what you are saying, but you are not hearing what I said. :)

    I posing the case of an earlier inode being reused by a more recent
    created file because the old file have been deleted.

    So? It is still roughly the order on the spinning disk. The OP's
    requirement is sufficiently vague that anyone is just guessing-- and his
    guess is just as possible as yours. He could also mean ctime rather than
    mtime. And I am not at all sure what you mean by "reliable". Neither is
    mtime. The order they are written could mean "last written" Or as
    Hodgins says, the order they lie on the "spinning rust") disk

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From faeychild@2:250/1 to All on Tue Mar 2 01:35:07 2021
    On 1/3/21 3:12 pm, faeychild wrote:



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written

    regards

    I should have known that it would be deeper

    I copy video files to a memory stick [fat32] in alpha order using Dolphin

    When plugged into a TV for viewing, the TV menu of the files is randomly
    ordered which makes it difficult to search.


    So I wanted to see if the file order on the stick is equally random or
    the TV software is suspect.

    After this it may become a bit more involved :-(

    regards


    --
    faeychild
    Running plasmashell 5.15.4 on 5.10.8-desktop-2.mga7 kernel.
    Mageia release 7 (Official) for x86_64 installed via Mageia-7-x86_64-DVD.iso


    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From Bit Twister@2:250/1 to All on Tue Mar 2 01:49:06 2021
    On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 12:35:07 +1100, faeychild wrote:
    On 1/3/21 3:12 pm, faeychild wrote:



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written >>
    regards

    I should have known that it would be deeper

    I copy video files to a memory stick [fat32] in alpha order using Dolphin

    I do not use Dolphin but if it does not maintain the file date, you are
    out of luck. If so, then I can suggest a script to rsync contents which
    will retain date, Be sure to NOT use the --delete switch.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From TJ@2:250/1 to All on Tue Mar 2 20:08:42 2021
    On 3/1/21 8:49 PM, Bit Twister wrote:
    On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 12:35:07 +1100, faeychild wrote:
    On 1/3/21 3:12 pm, faeychild wrote:



    Can files on a drive be listed unsorted, ie: in the order they were written >>>
    regards

    I should have known that it would be deeper

    I copy video files to a memory stick [fat32] in alpha order using Dolphin

    I do not use Dolphin but if it does not maintain the file date, you are
    out of luck. If so, then I can suggest a script to rsync contents which
    will retain date, Be sure to NOT use the --delete switch.

    Dolphin retains 3 dates: Created, Modified, last Accessed. You can sort
    by any one of the three. I suspect the OP wants Created.

    Easiest way to change the sort order: If it isn't showing, use the
    wrench icon to tell Dolphin to show the Menubar. Then use View/Sort by
    to see all the options for sort keys that are available. I see 9 general options, 10 if you count A-Z and Z-A as separate ones.

    There are two more specifically for video: frame rate and aspect ratio.
    I doubt either of those will help the OP with what he wants.

    TJ

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From David W. Hodgins@2:250/1 to All on Tue Mar 2 20:31:51 2021
    On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:08:42 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    Dolphin retains 3 dates: Created, Modified, last Accessed. You can sort
    by any one of the three. I suspect the OP wants Created.

    Have you tried it? The Created column is blank for all files on an ext4 file system. That's because the created timestamp is not stored in the file system.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
    email replies.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From TJ@2:250/1 to All on Wed Mar 3 00:21:47 2021
    On 3/2/21 3:31 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:08:42 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    Dolphin retains 3 dates: Created, Modified, last Accessed. You can sort
    by any one of the three. I suspect the OP wants Created.

    Have you tried it? The Created column is blank for all files on an ext4
    file
    system. That's because the created timestamp is not stored in the file system.


    I hadn't before you asked, but I have now. I won't argue about the
    filesystem, as you know far more about such things than I do, but... the created timestamp must be stored somewhere, because it worked.

    Dolphin can display the created information for each file, too. Find
    that option under "View/show additional information."

    TJ

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From TJ@2:250/1 to All on Wed Mar 3 00:27:13 2021
    On 3/2/21 7:21 PM, TJ wrote:
    On 3/2/21 3:31 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 15:08:42 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    Dolphin retains 3 dates: Created, Modified, last Accessed. You can sort
    by any one of the three. I suspect the OP wants Created.

    Have you tried it? The Created column is blank for all files on an
    ext4 file
    system. That's because the created timestamp is not stored in the file
    system.


    I hadn't before you asked, but I have now. I won't argue about the filesystem, as you know far more about such things than I do, but... the created timestamp must be stored somewhere, because it worked.

    Oh, and I just checked with gparted, just in case, and yes, the
    directories I checked were on ext4 partitions.

    Dolphin can display the created information for each file, too. Find
    that option under "View/show additional information."

    TJ


    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From David W. Hodgins@2:250/1 to All on Wed Mar 3 01:43:11 2021
    On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:21:47 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    Dolphin can display the created information for each file, too. Find
    that option under "View/show additional information."

    It can display the created date when the file is on a file system type that stores it. Most linux file systems do not, so either the tool will display blanks, or in some cases will show the last modified date as both the last modified date and as the created date.

    The inode (an entry in a table) info can be displayed using the stat command.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ echo timstamptest >timestamptest
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
    File: timestamptest
    Size: 13 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 4096 regular file Device: 812h/2066d Inode: 926381 Links: 1
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 500/ dave) Gid: ( 500/ dave) Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above, I've just created the file so all timestamps are set to the same value.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ echo timstamptest2 >>timestamptest
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
    File: timestamptest
    Size: 27 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 4096 regular file Device: 812h/2066d Inode: 926381 Links: 1
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 500/ dave) Gid: ( 500/ dave) Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above, I've changed the contents and the size so both Modify and Change have new values.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ ln timestamptest timestamptest3
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
    File: timestamptest
    Size: 27 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 4096 regular file Device: 812h/2066d Inode: 926381 Links: 2
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 500/ dave) Gid: ( 500/ dave) Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:35:12.515054572 -0500
    Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above I've changed the number of links pointing to the inode, so the inode
    has been modified.

    In all of the above cases the Birth (also called creation) timestamp displayed is actually a copy of the access timestamp.

    The stat command does this because the inode for each file in an ext(2,3,4) file
    system does not contain a field to store the Birth/Creation timestamp.

    If I just access the file, ...
    [dave@x3 ~]$ cat timestamptest
    timstamptest
    timstamptest2
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
    File: timestamptest
    Size: 27 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 4096 regular file Device: 812h/2066d Inode: 926381 Links: 2
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 500/ dave) Gid: ( 500/ dave) Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:35:12.515054572 -0500
    Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Notice that the Birth date has changed again.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
    email replies.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From TJ@2:250/1 to All on Wed Mar 3 13:58:41 2021
    On 3/2/21 8:43 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
    On Tue, 02 Mar 2021 19:21:47 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    Dolphin can display the created information for each file, too. Find
    that option under "View/show additional information."

    It can display the created date when the file is on a file system type that stores it. Most linux file systems do not, so either the tool will display blanks, or in some cases will show the last modified date as both the last modified date and as the created date.

    The inode (an entry in a table) info can be displayed using the stat command.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ echo timstamptest >timestamptest
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
      File: timestamptest
      Size: 13              Blocks: 8          IO Block: 4096   regular file
    Device: 812h/2066d      Inode: 926381      Links: 1
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--)  Uid: (  500/    dave)   Gid: (  500/    dave)
    Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
     Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above, I've just created the file so all timestamps are set to the same value.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ echo timstamptest2 >>timestamptest
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
      File: timestamptest
      Size: 27              Blocks: 8          IO Block: 4096   regular file
    Device: 812h/2066d      Inode: 926381      Links: 1
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--)  Uid: (  500/    dave)   Gid: (  500/    dave)
    Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
     Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above, I've changed the contents and the size so both Modify and Change
    have
    new values.

    [dave@x3 ~]$ ln timestamptest timestamptest3
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
      File: timestamptest
      Size: 27              Blocks: 8          IO Block: 4096   regular file
    Device: 812h/2066d      Inode: 926381      Links: 2
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--)  Uid: (  500/    dave)   Gid: (  500/    dave)
    Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:35:12.515054572 -0500
     Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Above I've changed the number of links pointing to the inode, so the inode has been modified.

    In all of the above cases the Birth (also called creation) timestamp displayed
    is actually a copy of the access timestamp.

    The stat command does this because the inode for each file in an
    ext(2,3,4) file
    system does not contain a field to store the Birth/Creation timestamp.

    If I just access the file, ...
    [dave@x3 ~]$ cat timestamptest
    timstamptest
    timstamptest2
    [dave@x3 ~]$ stat timestamptest
      File: timestamptest
      Size: 27              Blocks: 8          IO Block: 4096   regular file
    Device: 812h/2066d      Inode: 926381      Links: 2
    Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--)  Uid: (  500/    dave)   Gid: (  500/    dave)
    Access: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500
    Modify: 2021-03-02 20:34:35.803799810 -0500
    Change: 2021-03-02 20:35:12.515054572 -0500
     Birth: 2021-03-02 20:34:06.267594840 -0500

    Notice that the Birth date has changed again.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    And yet there seem to be exceptions to that. Well, one, anyway. Perhaps
    it depends on the type of file.

    I just accessed an image created in 2019, using Gwenview. Before viewing
    the file, I checked the Properties using Dolphin, and the dates were all
    the same, as you indicated would happen. After access, they had not
    changed, and even after closing Dolphin and re-opening it, they still
    hadn't changed.

    But then I copied the file to another partition on another drive.
    Viewing the properties of the copy, I see the modified and accessed
    dates are still in 2019, but the created date is now today. Other image
    files on the same destination drive are showing similarly-differing
    dates. Most have three different dates.

    Since I do not dispute what you are saying, my guess is that Dolphin is getting the information from somewhere other than the file system. The
    file's metadata perhaps?

    TJ

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)
  • From David W. Hodgins@2:250/1 to All on Wed Mar 3 19:06:07 2021
    On Wed, 03 Mar 2021 08:58:41 -0500, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:
    I just accessed an image created in 2019, using Gwenview. Before viewing
    the file, I checked the Properties using Dolphin, and the dates were all
    the same, as you indicated would happen. After access, they had not
    changed, and even after closing Dolphin and re-opening it, they still
    hadn't changed.

    But then I copied the file to another partition on another drive.
    Viewing the properties of the copy, I see the modified and accessed
    dates are still in 2019, but the created date is now today. Other image
    files on the same destination drive are showing similarly-differing
    dates. Most have three different dates.

    Since I do not dispute what you are saying, my guess is that Dolphin is getting the information from somewhere other than the file system. The
    file's metadata perhaps?

    It is getting the info from the file's metadata. Many file types including images include the meta data, aka data about the data.

    Here's the meta data for an image I took with a phone ...
    $ exiv2 snow-12hours.jpg
    File name : snow-12hours.jpg
    File size : 380533 Bytes
    MIME type : image/jpeg
    Image size : 1600 x 1200
    Camera make : ES.M800
    Camera model : SPH-M800
    Image timestamp : 2013:11:24 07:16:53
    Image number :
    Exposure time :
    Aperture :
    Exposure bias :
    Flash :
    Flash bias :
    Focal length :
    Subject distance:
    ISO speed :
    Exposure mode : Auto
    Metering mode : Center weighted average
    Macro mode :
    Image quality :
    Exif Resolution : 1600 x 1200
    White balance : Auto
    Thumbnail : image/jpeg, 17871 Bytes
    Copyright :
    Exif comment :

    The problem with relying on metadata, is that it is not part of the filesystem (though it is part of the file itself), and cannot be relied to exist or be accurate. The exiv2 progam can alter or delete the metadata in an image file. The man page for exiv2 lists the file types that it supports.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins

    --
    Change dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org to davidwhodgins@teksavvy.com for
    email replies.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.0.7.21 (GNU/Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (2:250/1@fidonet)