• Homemade ICs

    From Ksource@VERT/MUTINY to All on Mon Aug 16 01:33:30 2021
    http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/

    Did you guys see this yet? College student built his own array of 100-transistor ICs basically from scratch. Unreal. Imagine a future where you could not just screw around with FPGAs, but even fab your own little chips.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ksource on Mon Aug 16 06:47:35 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ksource to All on Mon Aug 16 2021 01:33 am

    http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/

    Did you guys see this yet? College student built his own array of 100-transistor ICs basically from scratch. Unreal. Imagine a future where yo could not just screw around with FPGAs, but even fab your own little chips.


    Between this and that guy who made a computer out of wired logic, capable of running Minix 2, the domination of Sillicon Valley and Big Tech is about to end!

    I know, I know, but dreaming is for free, right?

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  • From Ksource@VERT/MUTINY to Arelor on Mon Aug 16 21:07:37 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to Ksource on Mon Aug 16 2021 06:47:35

    Between this and that guy who made a computer out of wired logic, capable of running Minix 2, the domination of Sillicon Valley and Big Tech is about to end!

    I know, I know, but dreaming is for free, right?

    Ha!

    I think the biggest problem will be convincing people that they don't actually need 32GB of RAM and 16 cores to send an email.

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ksource on Tue Aug 17 08:52:38 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ksource to Arelor on Mon Aug 16 2021 09:07 pm


    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.
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  • From Brian Rogers@VERT/CARNAGE to Ksource on Tue Aug 17 08:12:00 2021
    Ksource wrote to Arelor <=-

    I think the biggest problem will be convincing people that they don't actually need 32GB of RAM and 16 cores to send an email.

    LOL

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    I still have my very first one that my very first BBS ran on. Its a Tandy 386sx25, AMD chip. Before I "retired" it I restored ALL the original hardware on it including hard disk, ram, etc... DOS 5.0, Deskmate (although I did leave windows 3.1 installed). It's 2 decades + years old and runs just fine.

    ... Why do bees stay in their hives during winter? Swarm.
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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to ksourse on Tue Aug 17 15:42:16 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to Ksource on Tue Aug 17 2021 08:52 am

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 13:55:02 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to ksourse on Tue Aug 17 2021 03:42 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old units sooner though.

    Nightfox

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  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to MRO on Tue Aug 17 15:38:00 2021
    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    Why? I'd [almost] say we're already there. My ThinkPad is an i7 and coming up on 13 years old. Sure its an earlier generation, but with the ability to toss in a 4GB SSD and 16GB RAM, its been chugging along quite nicely. In fact, I've even edited some video on it - sure its a bit long in the tooth, but is good enough for general use hands down.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Aug 17 21:48:31 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 2021 01:55 pm

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to ksourse on Tue Aug 17 2021 03:42 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old units sooner though.


    that's more a phone thing than a computer thing, though.
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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Nightfox on Tue Aug 17 21:11:58 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 2021 01:55 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old units sooner though.

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.

    ... The most popular labour-saving device today is still a husband with money.

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  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 22:09:00 2021

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 2021 01:55 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence se fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a lon time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old sooner though.

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.

    ... The most popular labour-saving device today is still a husband with money.

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    What??? What are you even saying?

    even your taglines are racist.



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  • From Ksource@VERT/MUTINY to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 03:24:33 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Tue Aug 17 2021 21:11:58

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old units sooner though.

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.

    I don't think the survival of Apple and Microsoft is a good thing in of itself. It's good only in so far is it brings about other goods. This is especially true when you think about all the environmental waste that comes from cycling through digital equipment so often.

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 08:50:24 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ksource to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 03:24 am

    I don't think the survival of Apple and Microsoft is a good thing in of itself. It's good only in so far is it brings about other goods. This is especially true when you think about all the environmental waste that comes from cycling through digital equipment so often.


    i think you mean you don't think.

    apple and microsoft are innovative companies that we have all benefitted from.

    regarding computer hardware, we could always recycle.
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 08:13:38 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to ksourse on Tue Aug 17 2021 03:42 pm

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to Ksource on Tue Aug 17 2021 08:52 am

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?


    I think that is not the point.

    It is great if they make new great things.

    However, it is also great if the old things are so good you don't need to upgrade
    unless you want to.

    One of my hay providers uses a tractor that is nearly 60 years old already. You may
    argue that it would be better for him to go get a new one for all the advantages and
    features modern models come with, but for the sort of light work this guy does, his
    likely answer would be: "Why in hell should I get a new tractor when I have one that
    works fine? Because they made a new model and they need to sell it?"

    TBH I am known for using junkyard computers, and I know people around here are using
    stoneage-grade computers. Most of my friends have better and newer computers than I
    do, but they don't have a more satisfying digital life or do something so groundbreaking with their new computers that would make me consider spending a single
    dollar upgrading.

    If anything, I am disappointed that the new things are not great enough that they make
    me want to buy them.


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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 08:26:40 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Tue Aug 17 2021 09:11 pm

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Tue Aug 17 2021 01:55 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence seems fairl
    popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their old units sooner
    though.

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything from OS's (Wind
    and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.

    ... The most popular labour-saving device today is still a husband with money.


    I have a better one.

    I have been saying for quite a while that we need no more film-making industry...
    there are already so many films recorded that you could not watch half of them in a
    single lifetime. Many are very good. There is no need to make new ones :-)

    The Software industry has already learned that selling programs is a dead end so they
    are switching to subscription models, enterprise support contracts, and data mining.
    A software studio can definitively survive supporting and patching a single software
    product for a decade. Heck, IBM recently came up with an updated COBOL compiler.

    As for the hardware industry, fuck them. If an industry needs to sell you a computer
    every 4 years and cannot sustain selling you repairs and repair parts for your computer instead, it is a wasteful industry. I'd rather spend premium on hardware that
    is robust, easy to maintain and upgradable than pay a lower price for junk you have to
    replace often. Same with phones.

    Maybe the reason why the hardware industry cannot survive on repair components is
    because they try to make their components non-interoperable and crazy expensive...
    like when Dell tried their power supplies to fit only their computer and then bill you
    premium for those PSU. Or HP making fans with non-standard wiring, so you cannot get
    your own fans and attach them to your server... then try to bill you a kidney's worth
    for a single mediocre, noisy fan. Then I bet they get surprised when you take an off
    the shelf fan and rewire it with a soldering iron and shoehorn it into the server out
    of freaking spite.

    PS: Fuck HP. There is a reason why they are bleeding out employees faster than they
    can hire new ones.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 08:26:42 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Tue Aug 17 2021 09:11 pm

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence
    seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful
    for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people
    replace their old units sooner though.

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.

    What do you mean? Companies not surviving people buying new versions of things, or not buying new versions of things?

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 12:36:53 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 08:13 am

    One of my hay providers uses a tractor that is nearly 60 years old already. You may argue that it would be better for him to go get a new one for all the advantages and features modern models come with, but for the sort of light work this guy does, his likely answer would be: "Why in hell should I get a new tractor when I have one that works fine? Because they made a new model and they need to sell it?"

    I suppose as long as something does what you need it to do, it doesn't really matter how old it is, if it's still in good working condition.

    TBH I am known for using junkyard computers, and I know people around here are using stoneage-grade computers. Most of my friends have better and newer computers than I do, but they don't have a more satisfying digital life or do something so groundbreaking with their new computers that would make me consider spending a single dollar upgrading.

    If anything, I am disappointed that the new things are not great enough that they make me want to buy them.

    If you don't already have something, I guess it might make sense to buy something new, unless you can save money and do the same thing buying an older one.

    With computers, I feel like there has been a bit of diminishing returns when newer stuff comes out. In the 80s and 90s, it always seemed like new computers were significantly and noticeably faster, had significantly better graphics, etc.. All the newer, faster, better stuff was really impressive because the rate it was advancing was pretty high compared to the previous version. But now, for years, I think we've been at a point where faster computers aren't noticeably faster with everyday things (you have to be doing something fairly intensive now to see increases in speed), and newer graphics aren't quite as impressive as they used to be because the differnces are not as significant (i.e., HDR video now does look better, but it's not as significant as going from monochrome to color, or from EGA to VGA graphics, for instance).

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 12:58:03 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 08:26 am

    I have been saying for quite a while that we need no more film-making industry... there are already so many films recorded that you could not watch half of them in a single lifetime. Many are very good. There is no need to make new ones :-)

    I suspect that's a bit tongue-in-cheek and not totally serious. :) But I was going to say it seems they can continue to make good new movies, even if there are already a lot of older good movies. Also, sometimes it might make sense to make a remake of a movie to look more fitting in modern times (i.e., there might be a movie from the 1960s that's very good, but might look out of place now as there would be nobody seen with cell phones, technology seen in the movie in general would be old, etc.).

    The Software industry has already learned that selling programs is a dead end so they are switching to subscription models, enterprise support contracts, and data mining. A software studio can definitively survive supporting and patching a single software product for a decade. Heck, IBM recently came up with an updated COBOL compiler.

    I don't really like the idea of paying a repeated subscription cost for software.. I guess I'm still used to the idea of buying something once and only buying something new when I need to. With older software, you'd only pay when buying a new version, but you could still use the old version as long as you want after you buy it. It's like with a car, you can buy it and keep using it as long as you want; the only time you'd keep paying is if you were renting it.

    But most of the time, I don't really want to 'rent' software. There are also a lot of instances where I don't use a piece of software regularly, but will have a use for it occasionally. I wouldn't want to keep paying a recurring fee when I'm not using it. I'd rather just buy it once. But I can understand paying again for a new version though; I've done that befor and I think it makes sense.

    I've seen some software where you pay for, say, 1 year of updates, and if you decide to cancel your subscription, you can keep using your current version but won't receive new updates. I think that is a good balance.

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Wed Aug 18 15:27:51 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 2021 08:50 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ksource to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 03:24 am

    I don't think the survival of Apple and Microsoft is a good thing in of itself. It's good only in so far is it brings about other goods. This is especially true when you think about all the environmental waste that com from cycling through digital equipment so often.


    i think you mean you don't think.

    apple and microsoft are innovative companies that we have all benefitted fro

    regarding computer hardware, we could always recycle.

    Maybe they _were_ innovative companies back in the day (and that is debatable) but they sure as heck are not today.

    Microsoft has been tailing everybody else in the industry for quite some years and are actually pumping a lot of money into projects that are not IT related at all. They are at that point in which they don't have as many ideas as they used to have so they need to purchase firms that already had the ideas. They fumbled their mobile presence and now they are struggling to become data miners, Linux vendors and groupware vendors; activities in which some other firm got them beaten to so they had to buy them or play second to the ones that did better than them.

    Regarding Apple, and as somebody else said elsewhere: "Without Jobs, the only thing they have been able to do is market bigger iPhones." I don't think the quote is 100% accurate but I don't think it misses the mark by that much either.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wed Aug 18 15:43:31 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 2021 12:58 pm

    I have been saying for quite a while that we need no more film-making industry... there are already so many films recorded that you could not watch half of them in a single lifetime. Many are very good. There is n need to make new ones :-)

    I suspect that's a bit tongue-in-cheek and not totally serious. :) But I wa going to say it seems they can continue to make good new movies, even if the are already a lot of older good movies. Also, sometimes it might make sense make a remake of a movie to look more fitting in modern times (i.e., there might be a movie from the 1960s that's very good, but might look out of plac now as there would be nobody seen with cell phones, technology seen in the movie in general would be old, etc.).

    I was tongue in cheek, but I think it is a powerful joke because it has some truth within it.

    They still make good movies, but most of them are either utter crap or are politiced beyond what is acceptable. If we suddenly plunged every mainstream film maker into a pool of acid I don't think we would miss many good films per year.

    Also, there are legit reasons to make a remake. Not many, but there are. Certainly, I think bringing a movie up to the current date is not one. I don't want a Predator remake just because Arnold is smartphoneless. Films that are good enough to be considered for a remake were a product of their times and should stay that way.

    Sure, you can remake Frankenstein 30 times, but the cheesy lightning effects, the "It's Alive!" scream and such are an iremovable part of what Frankenstein is. If you remove those components and replace them with a modern interpretation you are removing what made the movie memorable. Your remake may be good, but it will barely be Frankenstein anymore.



    I don't really like the idea of paying a repeated subscription cost for software.. I guess I'm still used to the idea of buying something once and only buying something new when I need to. With older software, you'd only p when buying a new version, but you could still use the old version as long a you want after you buy it. It's like with a car, you can buy it and keep us it as long as you want; the only time you'd keep paying is if you were renti it.

    I am not a fan of software subscriptions but I respect service subscriptions. They are different things.

    Still, as much as I hate the prospect, it does not invalidate the fact that the future of software development seems to be stopping to try selling you Microsoft Office licenses and trying to sell you some cloud document management subscription instead.



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 14:46:50 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 18 2021 03:43 pm

    Also, there are legit reasons to make a remake. Not many, but there are. Certainly, I think bringing a movie up to the current date is not one. I don't want a Predator remake just because Arnold is smartphoneless. Films that are good enough to be considered for a remake were a product of their times and should stay that way.

    True, and honestly I'm not really a fan of arbitrary movie remakes. I think a good movie is still good.

    Sure, you can remake Frankenstein 30 times, but the cheesy lightning effects, the "It's Alive!" scream and such are an iremovable part of what Frankenstein is. If you remove those components and replace them with a modern interpretation you are removing what made the movie memorable. Your remake may be good, but it will barely be Frankenstein anymore.

    I think it's somewhat similar to a song cover. If a different band does a cover of a song, they could do their own thing with it, and some people will prefer the original, and some might like the cover version. Sometimes the cover version might even be a bit better. But it still won't be the original.

    I am not a fan of software subscriptions but I respect service subscriptions. They are different things.

    Still, as much as I hate the prospect, it does not invalidate the fact that the future of software development seems to be stopping to try selling you Microsoft Office licenses and trying to sell you some cloud document management subscription instead.

    Yep. :/ I don't really like where the software industry is going. I'd worry about software requiring an internet connection just to check whether its license is active - The problem with that is if your internet service suddenly drops out for some reason, your software should still run.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 14:55:46 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to MRO on Wed Aug 18 2021 03:27 pm

    apple and microsoft are innovative companies that we have all
    benefitted fro

    Maybe they _were_ innovative companies back in the day (and that is debatable) but they sure as heck are not today.

    Yeah, I was thinking of the old argument that they both tried to innovate with making a GUI, but Xerox was really the company that created the first computer GUI.

    I think Apple has been good at making useful things, and things that seemingly nobody really knew they wanted or needed, but even then, they haven't been the first innovator of it. Apple's iPod wasn't the first portable MP3/music player of its kind - I remember seeing the Diamond Rio MP3 player in stores in the late 90s before the iPod came out. And I'm pretty sure Apple's iPad wasn't the first tablet device on the market. As far as the iPhone, I'm actually not sure - the iPhone is the first smartphone I remember hearing about.

    Microsoft has done a lot of work with software devlopment tools and programming langauges. Microsoft made languages like Visual Basic a long time ago, and C# is a newer programming language that Microsoft has made which seems to be fairly popular. Microsoft has made their own back-end web server technologies, but I suppoes it's debateable how innovative it has been compared to competing technologies.

    And yes, both Apple and Microsoft have made products that many people use, but their popularity doesn't necessarily mean they're innovative.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wed Aug 18 21:29:54 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 2021 12:58 pm

    But most of the time, I don't really want to 'rent' software. There are also a lot of instances where I don't use a piece of software regularly, but will have a use for it occasionally. I wouldn't want to keep paying a recurring fee when I'm not using it. I'd rather just buy it once. But I can understand paying again for a new version though; I've done that befor and I think it makes sense.


    you can want all you want. these companies want the money to keep rolling in and stop piracy and i understand that. software keeps getting updated and they can get a good idea of the software usage.

    if you were in their shoes and smart, you would do the same thing.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 21:31:50 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to MRO on Wed Aug 18 2021 03:27 pm


    Maybe they _were_ innovative companies back in the day (and that is debatable) but they sure as heck are not today.

    Microsoft has been tailing everybody else in the industry for quite some years and are actually pumping a lot of money into projects that are not IT related at all. They are at that point in which they don't have as many ideas as they used to have so they need to purchase firms that already had the ideas. They fumbled their mobile presence and now they are struggling to become data miners, Linux vendors and groupware vendors; activities in which some other firm got them beaten to so they had to buy them or play second to the ones that did better than them.

    Regarding Apple, and as somebody else said elsewhere: "Without Jobs, the only thing they have been able to do is market bigger iPhones." I don't think the quote is 100% accurate but I don't think it misses the mark by that much either.

    whatever, we would be nowhere without apple and microsoft.
    today's climate is very sketchy. i wouldn't know what to develop. people only want phones now. i dont even think people like tablet computers anymore.
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wed Aug 18 21:36:45 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 18 2021 02:55 pm

    Maybe they _were_ innovative companies back in the day (and that is debatable) but they sure as heck are not today.

    Yeah, I was thinking of the old argument that they both tried to innovate with making a GUI, but Xerox was really the company that created the first computer GUI.


    all the technology that apple dealt with existed before they touched it.
    apple just did it better. a LOT better.
    from your example down to iphones and itunes.

    And yes, both Apple and Microsoft have made products that many people use, but their popularity doesn't necessarily mean they're innovative.


    it absolutely does.
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  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Nightfox on Thu Aug 19 11:35:53 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 08:26 am

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything
    from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.


    What do you mean? Companies not surviving people buying new versions of things, or not buying new versions of things?

    I just mean technology needs to improve and it can't improve if it stays the same. I would love to have my new laptop last 20 years but that's not realistic. In fact, I've had it six months and the speakers stopped working already. So I'm going to have to replace this one before I wanted to. Hopefully technology will improve to make Laptops last longer. I'm not a technichian and don't even understand why the speakers on my 10 year old laptop still work yet the 6 month old one crapped out.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to HusTler on Thu Aug 19 11:10:57 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:35 am

    I just mean technology needs to improve and it can't improve if it stays the same. I would love to have my new laptop last 20 years but that's not realistic. In fact, I've had it six months and the speakers stopped working already. So I'm going to have to replace this one before I wanted to. Hopefully technology will improve to make Laptops last longer. I'm not a technichian and don't even understand why the speakers on my 10 year old laptop still work yet the 6 month old one crapped out.

    I think we probably already have the ability to make quality stuff that lasts a long time. Manufacturers probably don't want to put in extra effort to make things with that high quality though, either because it would take too long and/or be too expensive, or because they'd rather people buy a new one sooner.

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From The Millionaire@VERT/TRMB to Ksource on Thu Aug 19 14:28:08 2021
    http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/

    Did you guys see this yet? College student built his own array of 100-transistor ICs basically from scratch. Unreal. Imagine a future where you could not just screw around with FPGAs, but even fab your own little chips.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Mutiny BBS - mutinybbs.com - telnet:2332 - ssh:2232



    I once worked on EPROM back in the 80s. They're also fun.

    $ The Millionaire $
    (Co-SysOp Of The Rusty Mailbox)

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Ksource on Thu Aug 19 08:01:00 2021
    Ksource wrote to Arelor <=-

    I think the biggest problem will be convincing people that they don't actually need 32GB of RAM and 16 cores to send an email.

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    Thinking back, I wonder how long my older systems lasted. Many of them were working when I got rid of them. I wish I'd kept one 286 that I kept a MINIX web site caching DNS, POP client and talk daemon on at work - just to piss
    off the Solaris guys.





    ... Spectrum analysis
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Nightfox on Thu Aug 19 08:03:00 2021
    Nightfox wrote to HusTler <=-

    Sometimes, if it's not broken, don't fix it.. Planned obsolescence
    seems fairly popular these days, but a device can often be useful for a long time. Manufacturers would often like to see people replace their
    old units sooner though.

    Software bloat does a number on old systems, driving people to replace otherwise working systems.

    I'm playing with NetBSD in my homelab, it runs on a multitude of platforms, and looks like it makes even Lubuntu look huge by comparison. I'm tempted to put it on an old laptop and see if I can make it a daily driver.


    ... Spectrum analysis
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Thu Aug 19 11:17:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to Ksource <=-

    Between this and that guy who made a computer out of wired logic,
    capable of running Minix 2, the domination of Sillicon Valley and Big
    Tech is about to end!

    I know, I know, but dreaming is for free, right?

    He needs to get together with the guy who wrote collapseOS with the
    intention of scavenging 8-bit processors and making an OS to run on them.


    ... Consult other sources -promising -unpromising
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 19:58:00 2021
    Hey Ksource,

    Ksource wrote to All <=-

    http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/

    Did you guys see this yet? College student built his own array of 100-transistor ICs basically from scratch. Unreal. Imagine a future
    where you could not just screw around with FPGAs, but even fab your own little chips.

    It is actually pretty cool.

    I was a senior in high school when I made the Z1 amplifier...

    But man, this took the cake. I wish I was fabricating chips when I was a
    senior in high school.

    ... {gemini,https}://rtr.kalayaan.xyz -- visit me! :-)
    --- MultiMail/OpenBSD v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 20:03:00 2021
    Hi Ksource,

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    Decade perhaps. I'm still running a second-hand Thinkpad T400 that I've
    maxed out and it's still working fine. Admittedly it doesn't perform that
    well in the modern web and 1080p video. But for anything else it's fine.

    Though `decades' might be stretching it. Though honestly, technology
    developed so fast these past few decades that it is quite hard to
    see a computer lasting for 20 or even 30 years and still be relevant.
    But with Moore's Law slowing down and all, maybe we can see the first
    computers that would last for 20 or 30 years.


    ... {gemini,https}://rtr.kalayaan.xyz -- visit me! :-)
    --- MultiMail/OpenBSD v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 20 02:37:05 2021
    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Arelor on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:17 am

    Arelor wrote to Ksource <=-

    Between this and that guy who made a computer out of wired logic, capable of running Minix 2, the domination of Sillicon Valley and Big Tech is about to end!

    I know, I know, but dreaming is for free, right?

    He needs to get together with the guy who wrote collapseOS with the intention of scavenging 8-bit processors and making an OS to run on them.


    ... Consult other sources -promising -unpromising

    Related to the guy who made an OS for Z80s in case the Umbrella virus got released?

    That's fine but I think Minix is more mature at this point :-)

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Nightfox on Fri Aug 20 07:56:59 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:10 am

    I just mean technology needs to improve and it can't improve if it
    stays the same. I would love to have my new laptop last 20 years but

    I think we probably already have the ability to make quality stuff that lasts a long time. Manufacturers probably don't want to put in extra effort to make things with that high quality though, either because it would take too long and/or be too expensive, or because they'd rather people buy a new one sooner.

    I read somewhere that all electonics come from the same sweatshops in asia. Although everyone recommended a Leveno I'm confident the sound card not a Lenevo. I have the same card in my acer. So much for "name" brands.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to HusTler on Fri Aug 20 08:23:37 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Fri Aug 20 2021 07:56 am

    I think we probably already have the ability to make quality stuff
    that lasts a long time. Manufacturers probably don't want to put in

    I read somewhere that all electonics come from the same sweatshops in asia. Although everyone recommended a Leveno I'm confident the sound card not a Lenevo. I have the same card in my acer. So much for "name" brands.

    I've heard similar, many electronic components are made in Asia. I don't think that necessarily means it's bad quality though. TSMC, for instance, operates in Taiwan and makes chips for many computer companies. And Intel, although they make wafers in the US, seems to send their wafers to their (Intel's) fabs in China to make their processors from the wafers.

    Also, about that laptop, I'm 99% sure Lenovo doesn't make sound cards.. And in particular, for laptops, they usually use a common audio chipset made by other companies, similar to how a lot of desktop PCs now just use the onboard audio on the motherboard from Realtek etc..

    Nightfox

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to HusTler on Fri Aug 20 10:35:34 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Fri Aug 20 2021 07:56 am

    I read somewhere that all electonics come from the same sweatshops in asia. Although everyone recommended a Leveno I'm confident the sound card not a Lenevo. I have the same card in my acer. So much for "name" brands.


    It depends, but for most consumer laptops, that is pretty much the case. They manufacture them in China and some big brand like Acer just pastes their logo on them.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Fri Aug 20 13:59:34 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to HusTler on Fri Aug 20 2021 10:35 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Fri Aug 20 2021 07:56 am

    I read somewhere that all electonics come from the same sweatshops in asia. Although everyone recommended a Leveno I'm confident the sound card not a Lenevo. I have the same card in my acer. So much for "name" brands.


    It depends, but for most consumer laptops, that is pretty much the case. They manufacture them in China and some big brand like Acer just pastes their logo on them.


    pretty much everything comes from the same 3 places.

    food, electronics, etc
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to HusTler on Sun Aug 22 12:12:00 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to ksourse on Tue Aug 17 2021 03:42 pm

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to Ksource on Tue Aug 17 2021 08:52 am

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    that's just stupid.

    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Write better, less sloppy code.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to HusTler on Sun Aug 22 12:21:00 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:35 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Wed Aug 18 2021 08:26 am

    I can't see how technolgy companies could survive that. Everything
    from OS's (Windows and Apple OS's) to periphials would take a dump.


    What do you mean? Companies not surviving people buying new versions of things, or not buying new versions of things?

    I just mean technology needs to improve and it can't improve if it stays th to replace this one before I wanted to. Hopefully technology will improve to


    Various component industries go through bad streaks with bad batches of
    parts. The capacitor plague starting around 2002 was a good example. Regarding audio issues, there could be a streak of components that were contam inated during manufacturing which caused them to fail early.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Sun Aug 22 12:25:00 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Nightfox to HusTler on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:10 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Nightfox on Thu Aug 19 2021 11:35 am

    I just mean technology needs to improve and it can't improve if it stay the same. I would love to have my new laptop last 20 years but that's n realistic. In fact, I've had it six months and the speakers stopped working already. So I'm going to have to replace this one before I want to. Hopefully technology will improve to make Laptops last longer. I'm a technichian and don't even understand why the speakers on my 10 year laptop still work yet the 6 month old one crapped out.

    I think we probably already have the ability to make quality stuff that last ve, or because they'd rather people buy a new one sooner.

    Nightfox

    I agree. On a single product level it may appear they are only saving pennies
    by choosing components that barely meet spec, but spread that among hundred
    of thousands, if not millions of products made in a run, saving a few pennies looks attractive to a board of directors.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Moondog on Mon Aug 23 08:22:03 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Moondog to HusTler on Sun Aug 22 2021 12:12 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.


    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Write better, less sloppy code.

    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.

    |07 HusTler
    Havens BBS
    havens.synchro.net

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Mon Aug 23 10:59:38 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: HusTler to Moondog on Mon Aug 23 2021 08:22 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Moondog to HusTler on Sun Aug 22 2021 12:12 pm

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.


    How can computers get better if they're always the same?

    Write better, less sloppy code.

    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.


    slow at doing what? and have you tried a ssd?
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Arelor on Fri Aug 20 14:05:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    That's fine but I think Minix is more mature at this point :-)

    I would love to find a retro box and run Minix for a while. The -vmd version with TWM and Michael Temari's IP apps was a neat little system, running on a 286 with 4 megs of RAM.

    I commented that I learned more about IP networking by walking through
    MINIX's dp8390.c source code than any other opportunity.




    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Mon Aug 23 08:15:00 2021
    Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

    by choosing components that barely meet spec, but spread that among hundred of thousands, if not millions of products made in a run, saving
    a few pennies looks attractive to a board of directors.

    Look at Ford - they knew they had a life-threatening design defect with the Pinto, but decided paying off victims was cheaper than fixing that many
    cars.


    ... It's all more or less the same.. but it's all different now.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Tue Aug 24 02:45:49 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to HusTler on Mon Aug 23 2021 10:59 am

    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.


    slow at doing what? and have you tried a ssd?

    Well, 10 years ago you needed 192 megas of RAM to write a text document with Microsoft Word. Fast forward until the present times and a recent version of Microsoft Word you intend to use for exactly the same purpose won't even start with so little RAM.

    This is the point: we keep throwing moar hardware to do things we used to do with less than half the computer power. Telling somebody to buy a SSD in order to make Microsoft Office 2050 boot as fast as Microsoft Office 1995 just reads to me as "keep expending money to do the same thing you used to do with old software, with new software."

    I know new versions of programs are supposed to have more features and be cooler than the old version, but the fact remains if you only want to write a school essay both the old and the new versions of Microsoft Office will do the same, with the exception that the new version needs you to upgrade your RAM.

    Which is why Wordgrinder rocks.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Tue Aug 24 03:43:31 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Arelor to MRO on Tue Aug 24 2021 02:45 am

    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to HusTler on Mon Aug 23 2021 10:59 am

    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.


    slow at doing what? and have you tried a ssd?

    Well, 10 years ago you needed 192 megas of RAM to write a text document with Microsoft Word. Fast forward until the present times and a recent version of Microsoft Word you intend to use for exactly the same purpose won't even

    well i want to know specifically what he means by slow. a newer computer shouldnt seem slow.

    unless he's getting a cheap walmart laptop with 4 gigs of ram.

    i partially agree with you, in that it's bad programming. all of a sudden the one game i play runs like shit unless you have a ssd.

    windows' context menus would freeze longer than i would like and the bootup wasnt wonderful until i got a ssd.

    i think there might be a trend to overly rely on caches.
    instead of writing code to properly utilize a cpu and memory they are getting sloppy.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Moondog on Tue Aug 24 08:40:42 2021
    On 2021-08-22 12:12 p.m., Moondog wrote:

    Write better, less sloppy code.

    They don't now almost everything is api call with json where sometime
    the call itself is 80% bloats of tags and headers etc .

    ---
    ­ Synchronet ­ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to Ksource on Tue Aug 24 19:44:37 2021
    On 2021-08-16 1:33 a.m., Ksource wrote:

    http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/

    Did you guys see this yet? College student built his own array of 100-transistor ICs basically from scratch. Unreal. Imagine a future where you could not just screw around with FPGAs, but even fab your own little chips.

    cool !

    you must have seen that project : MOnSter 6502 http://q.ennev.com/10

    a 6502 cpu made of discrete components

    ---
    ­ Synchronet ­ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Thu Aug 26 07:05:13 2021
    Re: Homemade ICs
    By: MRO to Arelor on Tue Aug 24 2021 03:43 am

    well i want to know specifically what he means by slow. a newer computer shouldnt seem slow.

    unless he's getting a cheap walmart laptop with 4 gigs of ram.


    For the record, my main workstation is a cheap Mediamarkt machine with 4 gigs of ram. That is the
    powerful one. Then I have some more computers with 2 Gb tops.

    The 2 Gb ones only get slow if I try to do too much with them to the point they start swapping. Up
    to that point they are still faster than, say, my mother's computer, which is more modern
    (regarding things such as boot times and responsiveness).

    I think many developers prefer to throw moar hardware at problems rather than optimize code. Using
    bloaty frameworks is just so much faster and cheaper for software studios. There is no incentive to
    write your own webrpc implementation for your new videoconference program in a low level language
    when you can load 400 megs of some framework that somebody already wrote for you into memory. For
    the developer, it is the difference between wasting a big bunch of days coding or forcing YOU to
    waste YOUR memory. It is not even an option. 99.99% of developers are just going to say "fuck you"
    and rape your RAM rather than work harder themselves. And who can blame them?

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Ennev on Wed Aug 25 07:14:00 2021
    Ennev wrote to Ksource <=-

    you must have seen that project : MOnSter 6502 http://q.ennev.com/10

    I saw one a 6502 like that at VCF a couple of years ago - it wasn't as big
    as I'd thought it would be.


    ... Lost in useless territory
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Ennev@VERT/MTLGEEK to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 27 08:46:18 2021
    On 2021-08-25 10:14 a.m., poindexter FORTRAN wrote:

    I saw one a 6502 like that at VCF a couple of years ago - it wasn't as big
    as I'd thought it would be.

    Yes, I'm amazed that it's not that big in sizes and they claim it had
    the full instruction set and addressing modes. I get it's surfaced
    mounted components but you wonder why computers where not more generally available based on this in the 60's

    I guess memory and interfaces was part of the problem too.

    ---
    ­ Synchronet ­ MtlGeek - Geeks in Montreal - http://mtlgeek.com/ -
  • From Ksource@VERT/MUTINY to Atroxi on Fri Aug 27 23:28:01 2021
    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Atroxi to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 2021 20:03:00

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    Decade perhaps. I'm still running a second-hand Thinkpad T400 that I've maxed out and it's still working fine. Admittedly it doesn't perform that well in the modern web and 1080p video. But for anything else it's fine.

    Video is one area where I'll concede you're totally right. Not just watching video, but recording video, encoding video, editing video. Anything video-related and you just can't use an old machine.

    Though `decades' might be stretching it. Though honestly, technology developed so fast these past few decades that it is quite hard to
    see a computer lasting for 20 or even 30 years and still be relevant.
    But with Moore's Law slowing down and all, maybe we can see the first computers that would last for 20 or 30 years.

    Depends on what you mean by "relevant". It wouldn't be able to do everything, but it would be able to do a lot.

    On a lark, I tried out an old Raspberry Pi 1B (single-core 700MHz ARM,
    512MB RAM) and was surprised to find that, for a lot of tasks, I was actually MORE productive with it than I was with my usual machine, precisely because
    I couldn't watch any videos or load any extravagant webpages (though boring text-based reference webpages were still fine). For simple webpages, email, development, photo editing, etc., it was at least an order of magnitude over-powered.

    Unless it breaks (or I'm moving across the world and need to get rid of some stuff), I've found I can always find a reasonable use for a machine, no
    matter how old it is.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Mutiny BBS - mutinybbs.com - telnet:2332 - ssh:2232
  • From Ksource@VERT/MUTINY to Ennev on Fri Aug 27 23:36:48 2021
    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ennev to Ksource on Tue Aug 24 2021 19:44:37

    That Monster 6502 is unreal. If I get rich enough, I would totally buy one.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Mutiny BBS - mutinybbs.com - telnet:2332 - ssh:2232
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Ksource on Sat Aug 28 16:49:00 2021
    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Ksource to Atroxi on Fri Aug 27 2021 11:28 pm

    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Atroxi to Ksource on Wed Aug 18 2021 20:03:00

    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    Decade perhaps. I'm still running a second-hand Thinkpad T400 that I've maxed out and it's still working fine. Admittedly it doesn't perform that well in the modern web and 1080p video. But for anything else it's fine.

    Video is one area where I'll concede you're totally right. Not just watching video, but recording video, encoding video, editing video. Anything video-related and you just can't use an old machine.

    Though `decades' might be stretching it. Though honestly, technology developed so fast these past few decades that it is quite hard to
    see a computer lasting for 20 or even 30 years and still be relevant.
    But with Moore's Law slowing down and all, maybe we can see the first computers that would last for 20 or 30 years.

    Depends on what you mean by "relevant". It wouldn't be able to do everything but it would be able to do a lot.

    On a lark, I tried out an old Raspberry Pi 1B (single-core 700MHz ARM,
    512MB RAM) and was surprised to find that, for a lot of tasks, I was actuall MORE productive with it than I was with my usual machine, precisely because I couldn't watch any videos or load any extravagant webpages (though boring text-based reference webpages were still fine). For simple webpages, email, development, photo editing, etc., it was at least an order of magnitude over-powered.

    Unless it breaks (or I'm moving across the world and need to get rid of some stuff), I've found I can always find a reasonable use for a machine, no matter how old it is.


    Some applications will require as much horsepower you could provide, while others run better when you trim away all the fat. Improving functionality
    and ease of use will definitely require more memory and processing power, because it is adding work on top of the existing processes.

    ---
    þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to MRO on Fri Sep 3 18:07:25 2021
    On 8/23/2021 8:59 AM, MRO wrote:
    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades.

    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.


    slow at doing what? and have you tried a ssd?

    Good luck running an SSD on an old 286.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Tracker1 on Sat Sep 4 05:53:18 2021
    Re: Re: Homemade ICs
    By: Tracker1 to MRO on Fri Sep 03 2021 06:07 pm

    On 8/23/2021 8:59 AM, MRO wrote:
    I dream of a world where computer lifespans are measured in decades. >>
    Good point! I keep upgrading but even the newer PC's seem slow.


    slow at doing what? and have you tried a ssd?

    Good luck running an SSD on an old 286.
    --

    he's running a 286? he should just toss that junk out, then.
    ---
    þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::