• SHIELD PLUS

    From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to ALL on Tue Oct 26 14:31:00 2021

    Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

    My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
    for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
    carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

    I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
    trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
    I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
    7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
    the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
    and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

    Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
    mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
    new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

    So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
    here shot one?





    ... What if there were no hypothetical questions?
    --- MultiMail/Mac v0.52
    wcQWK 8.0 Omicron Theta *Cordova, TN * winserver.org
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to JIMMY ANDERSON on Wed Oct 27 09:27:00 2021
    JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to ALL <=-


    Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

    My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
    for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
    carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

    I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
    trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
    I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
    7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
    the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
    and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

    Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
    mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
    new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

    So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
    here shot one?

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
    the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
    noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I
    highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
    small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
    fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
    Shield.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to GAMGEE on Thu Oct 28 09:33:00 2021
    GAMGEE wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
    the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
    noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface,
    it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it.

    The fact that I can use my existing holster (magazine holsters) is a big
    plus to me (no pun intended).

    My Shield is the first Gen, so it doesn't have the extra surface that
    the 2.0 has, so this would definately be an improvement in that respect.

    The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of
    mind. I highly recommend it.

    I'm THIS close to ordering one... Smokey Mountain Guns & Ammo has the
    best price that I can find right now... $439.99 - free shipping - local
    FFL charges a flat $20 cash to handle the transfer ($10 for TICS -
    Tennessee Instant Check System, as opposed to NICS - and $10 for 'handling).

    I've always thought a .40 cal in a
    handgun this small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up shots.

    Well, I'm hoping I NEVER have to fire it in self defense, but you're right... Shooting at steel/paper in the back yard, there is a LOT of muzzle flip!
    My wife's SIG or my son's 9mm Glock though? Super fast follow up shots!

    I've always gone with the 'larger hole' thought process. :-) And never
    thought that 9mm was NOT adequate, just that given a choice with the same
    SIZE gun... I figure the larger hole is worth one or two rounds less.

    BUT - when she got her SIG with the huge magazine and the flat trigger?
    I was suddenly realizing that having 8 in mine vs, what, 14?, in hers?
    I would have to reload once to have the same amount of shots!

    And as much as I love the SIG, I wasn't crazy about changing over to
    a new 'platform' - she carried a Shield .40 for a while wile I carried
    her old 9mm Kel-Tec and once I shot her .40 and realized that it fit
    my hand good and all that, well I had to have one. LOL

    Again, I like the SIG! No complaints, and I'd be proud to carry one,
    but the Shield fits my 'stuff' already, I don't have to get used to
    a new gun (again, I NEVER want to have to shoot in self defense, but
    I enjoy back yard plinking a LOT - LOL. I have a Sub2000 as a 'truck
    gun' and wanted a .40 but couldn't find one at a good price. I bought
    the 9mm version, so even though the mags are not interchangable, the
    ammo is. :-)

    With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate.
    The Plus fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original Shield.

    Heck - .380 is much more now that it was a few years ago. :-) My wife's 'pocket' pistol she carries when she is not carrying the big one is a
    Ruger .380 LCP II (bought it before they introduced the MAX, speaking
    of higher capacity :-) ). I wouldn't have ANY problems using it if
    I had to!

    Thanks for the feedback! Nice to hear a REAL person and not just read
    a review. :-)



    ... Aibohphobia, n. -- the fear of palindromes.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to JIMMY ANDERSON on Thu Oct 28 19:43:00 2021
    Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: JIMMY ANDERSON to ALL on Tue Oct 26 2021 02:31 pm


    Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

    My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
    for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
    carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

    I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
    trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
    I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
    7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
    the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
    and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

    Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
    mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
    new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

    So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
    here shot one?





    ... What if there were no hypothetical questions?

    I like the M&P shields. I have a full size Performance Center M&P 40 CORE
    and M&P 40 compact. The shield is close tthe size of the compact, but much thinner.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Thu Oct 28 19:46:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to JIMMY ANDERSON on Wed Oct 27 2021 09:27 am

    JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to ALL <=-


    Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

    My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
    for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
    carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

    I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
    trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
    I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
    7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
    the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
    and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

    Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
    mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
    new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

    So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
    here shot one?

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
    the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
    noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
    small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
    fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
    Shield.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and 40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm considering getting a 9mm
    barrel for lighter practicing loads

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Fri Oct 29 09:57:00 2021
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
    the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
    noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
    small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
    fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
    Shield.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
    40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
    considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

    A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question. Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
    aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
    really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
    .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.



    ... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sat Oct 30 10:43:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Oct 29 2021 09:57 am

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original Shield.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
    40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

    A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question. Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
    aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
    really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
    .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.



    ... Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.

    Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to convert the 40 to
    a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or kludging to make them work.

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time with having
    a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight, feel and handliing are
    the same. The recoil is only different. Sights on a defensive pistol are
    not what you'd call match grade, and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider the
    opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40 compact.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sat Oct 30 19:59:00 2021
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original Shield.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
    40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

    A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question. Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of
    aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't
    really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
    .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.

    Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to
    convert the 40 to a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or
    kludging to make them work.

    If you say so.

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
    with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

    I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
    done that. Your mileage may vary.

    feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
    Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
    and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
    also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
    the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
    shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
    the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and
    barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
    compact.

    Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
    cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be
    shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the
    extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.

    You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sun Oct 31 10:48:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sat Oct 30 2021 07:59 pm

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original Shield.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
    40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

    A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question. Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.

    Midwayusa and Brownells sell drop-in replacement barrels to
    convert the 40 to a 9mm. It's by no means a form of bodgery or kludging to make them work.

    If you say so.

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
    with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

    I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
    done that. Your mileage may vary.

    feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
    Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
    and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
    also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
    the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
    shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
    the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
    compact.

    Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
    cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.

    You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.

    Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was $85. A
    Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box of 50 rounds of 9mm
    was right around $10-12, either price isn't that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

    Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new. Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the effects of pulling the trigger. I saw one
    dry fire simulator that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne
    via bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger through
    the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone will show you a graph
    of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the trigger.

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your eyes and
    hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount of
    wasted steps.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Sun Oct 31 21:40:00 2021
    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time
    with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

    I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
    done that. Your mileage may vary.

    feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different.
    Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade,
    and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can
    also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
    the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to
    shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
    the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40
    compact.

    Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the
    cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.

    You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.

    Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
    $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
    of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
    that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

    None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd
    need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.
    So I ask again.... what's the point?

    Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
    Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
    the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
    effects of pulling the trigger.

    You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if
    you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different
    recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
    aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences
    too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber,
    and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death
    situation with a different caliber?

    Just doesn't make any sense.

    I saw one dry fire simulator
    that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
    bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
    through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
    will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the
    trigger.

    Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where
    my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make
    adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some
    "app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
    your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
    the least amount of wasted steps.

    Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your
    life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this
    any other way.



    ... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Mon Nov 1 20:42:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Oct 31 2021 09:40 pm

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

    I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever
    done that. Your mileage may vary.

    feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different. Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade, and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses
    the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider
    the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40 compact.

    Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in the thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by the extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that count.

    You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.

    Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was
    $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
    of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
    that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

    None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd
    need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost.
    So I ask again.... what's the point?

    Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
    Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get
    the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
    effects of pulling the trigger.

    You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if
    you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different
    recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
    aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences
    too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber,
    and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death
    situation with a different caliber?

    Just doesn't make any sense.

    I saw one dry fire simulator
    that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via
    bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger
    through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
    will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the trigger.

    Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where
    my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some "app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training
    your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with
    the least amount of wasted steps.

    Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your
    life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this
    any other way.



    ... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.

    I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only premium defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball
    stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. That would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and leave the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Tue Nov 2 06:21:12 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Moondog to Gamgee on Mon Nov 01 2021 08:42 pm

    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Sun Oct 31 2021 09:40 pm

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Regarding training with other calibers, this is done all the time with having a matching firearm chambered in .22lr. The weight,

    I've been shooting for 40 years, and nobody I've ever known has ever done that. Your mileage may vary.

    feel and handliing are the same. The recoil is only different. Sights on a defensive pistol are not what you'd call match grade, and should be close enough with the right choice of ammo. I can also drop in a .357 Sig barrel in my M&P, and that caliber uses the same magazines as the 40. 9mm is a cheaper alternative to shooting and even handloading 40 cal, which is why I'd consider the opportunity that is brought by having the ability to swap and barrel and mag and retain the feel and trigger pull of my 40 compact.

    Uh-huh. How many rounds of 9 would you have to shoot to get back the cost of that barrel and magazine(s)? I'm guessing the number is in th thousands. Why not just shoot the actual ammo the gun is going to be shooting in a real life situation? That way you're not surprised by t extra recoil, and might be able to make some follow up shots that coun

    You do what you want, but in my opinion it's not a very good idea.

    Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was $85. A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box
    of 50 rounds of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't
    that bad for allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

    None of that answers the question that I asked. If you spend $100 on a barrel, and the 9 ammo is $2/box cheaper than the 40 ammo, then you'd need to shoot 50 boxes (2500 rounds) of ammo to break even on the cost. So I ask again.... what's the point?

    Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new.
    Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the
    effects of pulling the trigger.

    You're contradicting yourself. You *DON'T* get the feel of the gun if you don't include the effects of pulling the trigger. The different recoil between calibers makes it handle differently. Getting back on
    aim for the follow up shot is different. There are other differences too. How could it *POSSIBLY* be better to train with one ammo/caliber, and then actually use the gun in a real, stressful, life-or-death situation with a different caliber?

    Just doesn't make any sense.

    I saw one dry fire simulator
    that involves a barrel insert that connects to your phne via bluetooth, and it detects movements such as jerking the trigger through the use of motion sensors. The display on your phone
    will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the trigger.

    Garbage/gimmick/toys. I'd prefer to detect problems by observing where my bullet strikes the target in a real world environment, and make adjustments as needed based on what is ACTUALLY happening, not what some "app" is telling me. See above re: doesn't make any sense. There's a valuable saying in the military: "Train like you fight".

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount of wasted steps.

    Yep, agreed. So (again), why train your muscles to react to a different feel/recoil that what you're gonna want those muscles to do when your life might depend on it? Honestly I can't see how anyone could see this any other way.



    ... Smith & Wesson: The ORIGINAL point-and-click interface.

    I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only premium defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. That would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and leave the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try


    As the poor guy comming from a country in which ammo is not plentyful, my own opinion is that if you can't afford to train with high end stuff, you can't afford to use high end stuff.

    No shame in that.

    If you can't justify the expense of .40 for training then maybe you should stay with 9mm or .38, and use the more exotic bullets for some healthy fun in the range.

    It is not like there aren't affordable calibers that are serviceable.

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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Tue Nov 2 22:16:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Arelor to Moondog on Tue Nov 02 2021 06:21 am



    I see what youre saying, but you can go one more step and shoot only prem defensive ammo rather than substitute it with cheaper plated or fmj ball stuff because that's the only way to get the full training experience. T would get pricey. Maybe I'll decide I like shooting 9mm even more and le the barrel in. Only way to find out is to try


    As the poor guy comming from a country in which ammo is not plentyful, my ow opinion is that if you can't afford to train with high end stuff, you can't afford to use high end stuff.

    No shame in that.

    If you can't justify the expense of .40 for training then maybe you should s with 9mm or .38, and use the more exotic bullets for some healthy fun in the range.

    It is not like there aren't affordable calibers that are serviceable.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken


    My "carry" ammo is Hornady Critical Defense, and my practice ammo are
    handloads cranked out on a single stage press. I reload for less than lf
    of the price of premium defensive ammo. My cost is slightly less than
    factory practice ammo, however made to more consistent standards. I can
    easily match velocity and performance of my practice ammo to my defensive
    ammo, however my goal at this point is mainly to shoot more. Before covid,
    the election, blm and everything else pushed up the price of ammo and components, the 9mm shooters I knew were having trouble saving any change compared to the price of highly abundant 9mm factory ammo.

    ---
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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to MOONDOG on Mon Nov 8 15:06:00 2021
    MOONDOG wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-


    Read an article yesterday about the S&W 9mm Shield PLUS.

    My wife has a SIG P365XL and I bought her a RomeoZero
    for it. He carry before that was the same as what I'm
    carrying now - a .40 Shield (her's has a laser as well).

    I love the SIG and can hit good with it - love the 'flat'
    trigger, etc. But now that I've read about the Shield,
    I'm really wanting to get my hands on it... My .40 holds
    7+1 with the 'longer' magazine (only slightly longer than
    the 6 capacity) but the new one comes with a 10 round mag
    and a 13 round mag! So I could have 14 IN THE GUN...

    Right now I carry my .40 on my hip, and TWO extra 7 round
    mags on my other hip. I use versacarry, and apparently the
    new PLUS will fit in the same gear!

    So - all that to say this - anyone held one of these? Anyone
    here shot one?





    ... What if there were no hypothetical questions?

    I like the M&P shields. I have a full size Performance Center M&P 40
    CORE and M&P 40 compact. The shield is close tthe size of the compact, but much thinner.

    Yeah, I carry a .40 shield now. Curious about the PLUS.



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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to GAMGEE on Mon Nov 8 15:08:00 2021
    GAMGEE wrote to MOONDOG <=-

    Moondog wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I carried a regular Shield 9 for a long while and about a year ago got
    the Plus model. There is virtually no difference in physical
    dimensions, just a very small bit wider on the grip, not really
    noticeable at all. The Plus has a much more textured grip surface, it's almost like sandpaper, which results in a solid/firm hold on it. The increased magazine capacity is a huge bonus and gives peace of mind. I highly recommend it. I've always thought a .40 cal in a handgun this
    small is on the borderline of too "snappy" for effective follow-up
    shots. With today's modern ammo, 9mm is perfectly adequate. The Plus
    fits and works fine with all existing holsters made for the original
    Shield.

    I've read the frames are very similar in size between the 9 and
    40 M&P;s and t he 40 can accep the 9mm barrel and mags. I'm
    considering getting a 9mm barrel for lighter practicing loads

    A quick Google search shows mixed answers/results on that question. Personally I would never do such a thing. For one reason, the point of aim would be different because of the different ballistics. Doesn't really make any sense. If you can't practice with a .40, why carry a
    .40? If it's too heavy of a cartridge for you, sell it and buy a 9.


    To me, it's like putting a .22 barrel, etc. on an AR or a 1911... I don't begrudge someone for doing so, of course, to each his own. I may get to
    a point where I do something like that, but for now I'm not going to convert mine.

    I did thing about, at one time, getting a .357 SIG barrel for my .40, since
    the magazines are the same, but decided it wasn't worth the effort for a POSSIBLE increase in 'power.'

    But still thinking of going to the PLUS, even though it's a smaller
    round...




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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to MOONDOG on Mon Nov 8 15:12:00 2021
    MOONDOG wrote to GAMGEE <=-



    Last time I checked, a factory 9mm barrel for my M&P compact was $85.
    A Storm Lake barrel costs $179. In good times when a box of 50 rounds
    of 9mm was right around $10-12, either price isn't that bad for
    allowing someone to make their pistil into a modular platform.

    Regarding training with sub calibers, the idea isn't new. Uncommon, maybe. It's an alternative to dry firing, where you get the feel of the gun and the trigger pull without seeing the effects of pulling the trigger. I saw one dry fire simulator that involves a barrel insert
    that connects to your phne via bluetooth, and it detects movements such
    as jerking the trigger through the use of motion sensors. The display
    on your phone will show you a graph of how the pistol reacted as you pulled the trigger.

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your
    eyes and
    hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount
    of wasted steps.

    To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting at
    various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges - and I'm not concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on target' - and that target
    is either a head size circle or a torso size rectangle.




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  • From JIMMY ANDERSON@VERT/OTHETA to MOONDOG on Mon Nov 8 15:15:00 2021
    MOONDOG wrote to ARELOR <=-

    defensive ammo, however my goal at this point is mainly to shoot more.

    For me, NOTHING takes the place of real shots! That's a good goal! :-)

    And a fun one too, if I say so myself. LOL



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to JIMMY ANDERSON on Tue Nov 9 07:33:00 2021
    JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your
    eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount of wasted steps.

    To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting
    at various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges -
    and I'm not concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on
    target' - and that target is either a head size circle or a torso
    size rectangle.

    Ever heard the term "aim small, miss small"? Google it. It's valid.


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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Nov 9 22:23:00 2021
    Re: Re: SHIELD PLUS
    By: Gamgee to JIMMY ANDERSON on Tue Nov 09 2021 07:33 am

    JIMMY ANDERSON wrote to MOONDOG <=-

    Regardless the method, it's all about muscle memory and training your eyes and hands to bring up the gun and align the sights with the least amount of wasted steps.

    To add to that, I'm not 'training' to shoot groups - I'm shooting
    at various metal plates - different sizes at different ranges -
    and I'm not concerned with bullseye, but 'getting the shot on
    target' - and that target is either a head size circle or a torso
    size rectangle.

    Ever heard the term "aim small, miss small"? Google it. It's valid.


    ... Post may contain information unsuitable for overly sensitive persons.

    Steel Challenge is more about ringing steel fast versus placing holes in the x-ring. A certain amount of precision is required to hit various sized
    plates at various ranges. That much is granted.

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